Not too much motivation to continue here when you want to characterize me as "twisting Scriptures".
I had thought we would be above that.
Bible verses most Christians refuse to believe
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I had thought we would be above that.
You don't like my explanation that the Old Testament differentiates between willful sins of lawlessness, and unintentional trespasses, so being a Christian and believing sin is sin, you must believe these scriptures as they are and don't sin in any fashion. Personally, I don't think you do sin; you just don't like that these scriptures apply to everyone, and you are afraid for them. Paul was too and why he gave so many warnings to walk in the Spirit, and commanded to not quench the Spirit. I am too. So much so that I want to let them know these scriptures exist. These are true, and easy to live by. Why would they not be with God inside you? But some people are just taught about the Spirit in passing, when Jesus gave Him to us to fulfill His New Covenant.
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Not so. I don't have a preference towards any particular meaning in the Scripture. I know that some do. Some are very attached to certain doctrines for various reasons, such as those who are pre-trib rapture (I'm NOT going to side track) believers more because they are still afraid of tribulations, failing to understand that God uses all those to give us what we most desire, intimacy with Him.
I hold to the view because I happen to see it that way in Scripture.
What really concerns me is not whether or not we're going to be raptured, or whether or not the believer's behavior is perfect in all respects, their thoughts and emotions and responses always perfect in all respects - is Jesus any less than that? - but simply which is it. What truly concerns me is to be mistaken on anything. When I come to see something different than I've understood previously I lovingly embrace it. I love truth.
It's not that I don't like it, it's that I don't see this differentiation applied to the NT born again. I understand your view of the passage to not pray for sins unto death, but I personally feel that passage to be somewhat ambiguous on it's own, requiring that we see it in light of other passages, rather than establishing a doctrine only upon it.
It's not that I'm against forming our doctrines if only one verse says it. God need only say a thing once. But in this verse there isn't clarity whether it speaks of physical death or second death.
Your idea is that this is answered in the distinctions in the OT law, and unintentional sins. I've looked at that, but found quite intentional sins that are still covered by sacrifice, lying, stealing, others, so it doesn't seem to me to fit with the idea that the true Christian commits only unintentional sins, but no intentional sins.
As I've said before, I think living that way is a matter of one's faith. Be it to you according to your faith. By the same faith in which we are saved, we also have access into the grace in which we stand. We've trusted Him to be saved, to be alive, now let's trust Him to live, to love.
What I see in the NT is a sharp distinction between two creatures. In one, nothing good lives. The other is righteous and holy. The one is born from Adam in corruption. The other is born from above, born of God.
By faith we walk in the Spirit, and that which is not of faith is sin. I don't see any distinctions between sins in the New Testament, save that sexual sins are against one's own body. In that sin corrupts, sexual sins directly corrupt the flesh.
The only thing we do wrong now that we are children of God is to simply not live that way in any particular moment. And it we stop being the new people we are, any of our old rot come come back up, because we've allowed the corruption of the flesh ascess to the body. Whatever happens in that state, it's sin. It's from the flesh.
Typically, for me, I think, it's that something catches my attention as need, and that I think I have to do something about, that's not already flowing into my life.
A bill comes in that's more than I can pay. I feel a desire, a pain, a craving, a fear, whatever, and react. And that reaction that is not continued trust in God to supply what is needed, to deal with that thing, to show me the way, anything else, that looks to myself, that seeks it from the world, that is the flesh, because the spirit delights in God.
Any sins, no matter what they are, do not come from the Spirit of God living through me, as Paul wrote, it is no longer I that live. And in Him is no sin. Not of any description.
I believe our walk is by faith. And to stand in grace results in walking in good works. Not sinful works. Those are entirely the flesh, which by the Spirit we control, by God's grace, His power in us which is effective as we believe.
I don't say any of this because I prefer it, although it is glorious! It's actually been a very difficult road for me to get past all the things people have taught, before I learned it myself. It simply seemed to frighteningly good. Impossible to accept. For a long time. But it's what the Scriptures teach.
I'll be happy to share the Scriptures I form my ideas from, I'd just ask that you let me know the particular place you are interested in.
Much love!
Waiting on him
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Preacher4Truth
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Any person claiming true conversion who believes they are sinless is lacking a true encounter with Christ.
An excerpt from the commentary of Enduring Word Bible: 1 John Chapter 1
4. (8-10) The presence of sin, the confession of sin, and the cleansing from sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
a. If we say we have no sin: John has introduced the ideas of walking in the light and being cleansed from sin. But he did not for a moment believe that a Christian can become sinlessly perfect.
i. To think this of ourselves is to deceive ourselves, and to say this of ourselves is to lie – the truth is not in us.
ii. “Our deceitful heart reveals an almost Satanic shrewdness in self-deception… If you say you have no sin you have achieved a fearful success, you have put out your own eyes, and perverted your own reason!” (Spurgeon)
iii. There are few people today who think they are sinlessly perfect, yet not many really think of themselves as sinners. Many will say “I make mistakes” or “I’m not perfect” or “I’m only human,” but usually they say such things to excuse or defend. This is different from knowing and admitting “I am a sinner.”
iv. To say that we have no sin puts us in a dangerous place because God’s grace and mercy is extended to sinners, not to “those who make mistakes” or “I’m only human” or “no one is perfect” people, but sinners. We need to realize the victory and forgiveness that comes from saying, “I am a sinner – even a great sinner – but I have a Savior who cleanses me from all sin.”
b. If we confess our sins: Though sin is present, it need not remain a hindrance to our relationship with God – we may find complete cleansing (from all unrighteousness) as we confess our sins.
i. To confess means, “to say the same as.” When we confess our sin, we are willing to say (and believe) the same thing about our sin that God says about it. Jesus’ story about the religious man and the sinner who prayed before God illustrated this; the Pharisee bragged about how righteous he was, while the sinner just said God be merciful to me a sinner (Luke 18:10-14). The one who confessed his sin was the one who agreed with God about how bad he was.
ii. Confess translates a verb in the present tense. The meaning is that we should keep on confessing our sin – instead of referring to a “once-for-all” confession of sin at our conversion.
iii. You don’t have to go to a confessional to confess your sin. When you are baptized, you are confessing your sin by saying you needed to be cleansed and reborn. When you receive communion, you confess your sin by saying you need the work of Jesus on the cross to take your sin away. But of course, we need to confess our sin in the most straightforward way: by admitting to God that what we have done is sin, and by asking for His divine forgiveness, based on what Jesus has done on the cross for us.
iv. Our sins are not forgiven because we confess. If this were the case – if forgiveness for a sin could only come where there was confession – then we would all be damned because it would be impossible for us to confess every sin we ever commit. We are forgiven because our punishment was put upon Jesus, we are cleansed by His blood.
v. However, confession is still vital to maintain relationship with God, and this is the context John speaks from. As God convicts us of sin that is hindering our fellowship with Him, we must confess it and receive forgiveness and cleansing for our relationship with God to continue without hindrance.
vi. Confession must be personal. To say, “God, if we have made any mistakes, forgive us” isn’t confession, because it isn’t convinced (saying “if we made”), it isn’t personal (saying “if we made”), it isn’t specific (saying “if we made any”), and it isn’t honest (saying “mistakes”).
c. He is faithful and just to forgive us: Because of Jesus’ work, the righteousness of God is our friend – insuring that we will be forgiven because Jesus paid the penalty of our sin. God is being faithful and just to forgive us in light of Jesus.
i. “The text means just this – Treat God truthfully, and he will treat you truthfully. Make no pretensions before God, but lay bare your soul, let him see it as it is, and then he will be faithful and just to forgive you your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness.” (Spurgeon)
ii. The promise of 1 John 1:9 shouldn’t lead us into sin, saying “Hey, I’ll go ahead and sin because God will forgive me.” It should lead us out of sin, knowing that God could only be faithful and just to forgive us our sins because the wrath we deserved was poured out on the sin. Since each sin carries with it its own measure of wrath, so there is a sense in which each sin we commit added to the agony of Jesus on the cross.
iii. There is no more sure evidence that a person is out of fellowship with God than for someone to contemplate or commit sin with the idea, “I can just ask for forgiveness later.” Since God is light and in Him is no darkness at all, we can be assured that the person who commits sin with this idea is not in fellowship with God.
d. If we say that we have not sinned: If we deny the presence of sin, we are self-deceived and are denying God’s Word. Yet, though sin is always present, so is its remedy – so sin need never be a hindrance to our relationship with God.
i. The idea that His word is not in us is related to the idea that Jesus is the Word of life (1 John 1:1); if we refuse to see sin in us, we show that Jesus is not in us.
ii. “No man was ever kept out of God’s kingdom for his confessed badness; many are for their supposed goodness.” (Trapp)
4. (8-10) The presence of sin, the confession of sin, and the cleansing from sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
a. If we say we have no sin: John has introduced the ideas of walking in the light and being cleansed from sin. But he did not for a moment believe that a Christian can become sinlessly perfect.
i. To think this of ourselves is to deceive ourselves, and to say this of ourselves is to lie – the truth is not in us.
ii. “Our deceitful heart reveals an almost Satanic shrewdness in self-deception… If you say you have no sin you have achieved a fearful success, you have put out your own eyes, and perverted your own reason!” (Spurgeon)
iii. There are few people today who think they are sinlessly perfect, yet not many really think of themselves as sinners. Many will say “I make mistakes” or “I’m not perfect” or “I’m only human,” but usually they say such things to excuse or defend. This is different from knowing and admitting “I am a sinner.”
iv. To say that we have no sin puts us in a dangerous place because God’s grace and mercy is extended to sinners, not to “those who make mistakes” or “I’m only human” or “no one is perfect” people, but sinners. We need to realize the victory and forgiveness that comes from saying, “I am a sinner – even a great sinner – but I have a Savior who cleanses me from all sin.”
b. If we confess our sins: Though sin is present, it need not remain a hindrance to our relationship with God – we may find complete cleansing (from all unrighteousness) as we confess our sins.
i. To confess means, “to say the same as.” When we confess our sin, we are willing to say (and believe) the same thing about our sin that God says about it. Jesus’ story about the religious man and the sinner who prayed before God illustrated this; the Pharisee bragged about how righteous he was, while the sinner just said God be merciful to me a sinner (Luke 18:10-14). The one who confessed his sin was the one who agreed with God about how bad he was.
ii. Confess translates a verb in the present tense. The meaning is that we should keep on confessing our sin – instead of referring to a “once-for-all” confession of sin at our conversion.
iii. You don’t have to go to a confessional to confess your sin. When you are baptized, you are confessing your sin by saying you needed to be cleansed and reborn. When you receive communion, you confess your sin by saying you need the work of Jesus on the cross to take your sin away. But of course, we need to confess our sin in the most straightforward way: by admitting to God that what we have done is sin, and by asking for His divine forgiveness, based on what Jesus has done on the cross for us.
iv. Our sins are not forgiven because we confess. If this were the case – if forgiveness for a sin could only come where there was confession – then we would all be damned because it would be impossible for us to confess every sin we ever commit. We are forgiven because our punishment was put upon Jesus, we are cleansed by His blood.
v. However, confession is still vital to maintain relationship with God, and this is the context John speaks from. As God convicts us of sin that is hindering our fellowship with Him, we must confess it and receive forgiveness and cleansing for our relationship with God to continue without hindrance.
vi. Confession must be personal. To say, “God, if we have made any mistakes, forgive us” isn’t confession, because it isn’t convinced (saying “if we made”), it isn’t personal (saying “if we made”), it isn’t specific (saying “if we made any”), and it isn’t honest (saying “mistakes”).
c. He is faithful and just to forgive us: Because of Jesus’ work, the righteousness of God is our friend – insuring that we will be forgiven because Jesus paid the penalty of our sin. God is being faithful and just to forgive us in light of Jesus.
i. “The text means just this – Treat God truthfully, and he will treat you truthfully. Make no pretensions before God, but lay bare your soul, let him see it as it is, and then he will be faithful and just to forgive you your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness.” (Spurgeon)
ii. The promise of 1 John 1:9 shouldn’t lead us into sin, saying “Hey, I’ll go ahead and sin because God will forgive me.” It should lead us out of sin, knowing that God could only be faithful and just to forgive us our sins because the wrath we deserved was poured out on the sin. Since each sin carries with it its own measure of wrath, so there is a sense in which each sin we commit added to the agony of Jesus on the cross.
iii. There is no more sure evidence that a person is out of fellowship with God than for someone to contemplate or commit sin with the idea, “I can just ask for forgiveness later.” Since God is light and in Him is no darkness at all, we can be assured that the person who commits sin with this idea is not in fellowship with God.
d. If we say that we have not sinned: If we deny the presence of sin, we are self-deceived and are denying God’s Word. Yet, though sin is always present, so is its remedy – so sin need never be a hindrance to our relationship with God.
i. The idea that His word is not in us is related to the idea that Jesus is the Word of life (1 John 1:1); if we refuse to see sin in us, we show that Jesus is not in us.
ii. “No man was ever kept out of God’s kingdom for his confessed badness; many are for their supposed goodness.” (Trapp)
ThePuffyBlob
Well-Known Member
how will you explain this? so paul was not in the spirit as well but preaches this? paul was in the flesh then is he a hypocrite?? paul was in the spirit and flesh....split personality....
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Scripture is always true, application of it to fit a narrative should be examined to see if it is being applied in context.
I am now and will always be a child of God who is forever humble and grateful that His Mercy and Grace is new everyday. I am in awe of a loving Father who in His infinite Wisdom created a plan by which we would be able to be adopted and become as sons and daughters to Him through Christ. I can walk in the Joy of the Lord and the Joy of my Salvation because I am assured that He will never leave me nor forsake me...that He leads me and guides me through my life, that He corrects me when I am wrong, that He reveals the hidden things in my heart that are in error, that He chastises me as a loving Father, and that His Love is unconditional and that He found me worthy of His sacrifice.
Romans 7 is what it was like for the Jews of the Old Covenant who had to keep the law in their own strength - the flesh. It was because of sin that made the law weak. But in Romans 8 it shows that the Spirit frees us from sin. Just read the chapter in context without chapter breaks. Paul even says in Romans 8:2 that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed ME from the law of sin and death (the struggle of Romans 7). Therefore Paul was not in the flesh, but in the Spirit and Romans 7 no longer applied to him.
1 John 1:8 goes along with Paul's "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That is mankind. Since Adam sinned, mankind is plagued by sin, and he who says they are without sin, is a liar. Same with verse 10, which is basically someone who says they have never sinned in their whole life. That is also a lie. We need a Savior, and we need to repent which is why verse 9 pulls everything into context. Verse 9 is how to become a Christian - you repent. Paul says it like this in Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death. John goes on to say in 1 John 3:5, "Jesus was manifest to take away our sin (1 John 1:9) and in Him there is no sin." You see there is no contradiction when you know that if the person in 1 John 1:8 and 10 actually still have sin in them, then they have never been freed from sin, thus not a true Christian. Otherwise it is a dichotomy.
I know we've talked about this before, but you still believe that 1 John 1:8 is a Christian? No, dear, they need the next verse to become one.
1 John 1:8-9 Good New's Translation
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing.
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Romans 7 was Paul expressing his own struggle with sin....and in this he learns that there is a law...
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Paul explains that the law is spiritual but we are carnal...and he said that it is not himself that sins but that sin dwelleth in him
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Paul concludes that the flesh and the spirit war against each other and that they each serve a different law....
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We are born again of His Spirit and are adopted and become joint heirs to the throne of God through Jesus Christ.....our spirit is born again but still remains in a corrupt flesh.
This link has a sermon preached in 1986 and is one of the best I have ever heard concerning a believer and his/her wrestle to overcome the things of the flesh.
The Believer and Indwelling Sin, Part 1
It is as we mature as Christians that we become stronger in our spiritual walk and are able to resist the temptation to sin....
What kind of Christian was Paul?
Excerpt from the link I gave
"You know what kind of Christian this is? My friend, this is the most mature spiritual Christian there could ever be, who sees so clearly the inability of his flesh as over against the holiness of the divine standard. You see? And the more mature he is, and the more spiritual he is, the greater will be the sensitivity of his own shortcomings. You show me an infantile, “carnal,” fleshly, legalistic, self-righteous kind of Christian, and I’ll show you somebody who lives under the disillusion that everything he’s doing is really very spiritual. You show me a person with this kind of brokenness, you show me a person agonizing in the depths of his own soul because he can’t do everything written in the law of God, and I’ll show you a spiritual person."
What kind of Christian was Paul?
Excerpt from the link I gave
"You know what kind of Christian this is? My friend, this is the most mature spiritual Christian there could ever be, who sees so clearly the inability of his flesh as over against the holiness of the divine standard. You see? And the more mature he is, and the more spiritual he is, the greater will be the sensitivity of his own shortcomings. You show me an infantile, “carnal,” fleshly, legalistic, self-righteous kind of Christian, and I’ll show you somebody who lives under the disillusion that everything he’s doing is really very spiritual. You show me a person with this kind of brokenness, you show me a person agonizing in the depths of his own soul because he can’t do everything written in the law of God, and I’ll show you a spiritual person."
ScottA
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Anyone who cannot say "I am", does not know who's he is, and therefore continues in sin.
Just as David and the apostles appeared to break certain laws, but did not, sin is not defined by the act, but by the source: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Among these passages are many mysteries only revealed in spirit. Thus, it is also written "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition..." Meaning, "that Day" that comes, is that day when Christ comes into a man, "each in his own order." Such are all who have "passed from death to life"; and whoever "is born of the flesh" is revealed as that "man of sin."
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ScottA
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ScottA
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That would be a poor definition of "Christian."
All of these qualify to be called Christian:
"Behold, a sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
...But all do not come to be "in Christ." "For many are called, but few chosen.”
This is a *no-win* thread. Best to let it die a quick death. I don't believe you have ever twisted Scripture.
Oh my, well you proved my long held belief that those who hold onto 1 John 1:8 is a Christian, will also take Romans 7:14-25 out of context and believe that is Paul as a Christian also. Now, if a Christian wants to try to overcome sin on their own by just studying the law and shear willpower, they are under the law, and it will take a lifetime of struggle. But if you had only read a couple verses further as I pointed out in my post to funny bird, well I guess you didn't believe that the receiving of the Holy Spirit frees us from that struggle immediately. It is the difference between LAW vs SPIRIT. It is becoming born again of the Holy Spirit. The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.
What gets people in trouble is Paul and John's use of first person. That is merely a teaching tool. But in these two cases (1 John 1 and Romans 7) we/I is mankind. Look at Romans 7:9. It is first person and has Paul over 1300 years old being there before and after Moses received the law.
This is also the reason for this whole post. Go back and read the title of this post.
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ThePuffyBlob
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