The Necessity Of Tongues As A Prayer Language

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Polar

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"Any one who believes they are more filled with Gods spirit because they speak babel is fooling themselves." -- Christina-- NO ONE has said "they are more filled with God's spirit" because they speak in tongues. Try to be honest, okay?"As for the rest of this .... there is no evidence anywhere anyone ever spoke babble .... There is no Unknown tongue in scripture there is prayer .." -- ChristinaReally? 1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."Please show me where speaking to God in this tongue unknown to man is a bad thing.If your sole intention is to be speaking to God in prayer and praise, then you are accomplishing exactly what you set out for."God understands all languages because he reads our heart no babble or tongues makes one closer to God or further from him." -- Christina-- You have just made an argument for not speaking to God outloud period. Why? Because he reads your heart so speaking it outloud serves no purpose, right? Praying and worshiping God in the spirit is of course babble to you.It isn't intended for you and your close mind isn't able to comprehend.But God listens...and understands.
 

setfree

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Setfree your take is just speculation and you seeing what you want ...As for the rest of this .... there is no evidence anywhere anyone ever spoke babble .... There is no Unknown tongue in scripture there is prayer ...there is no babbling prayer language ..God understands all languages because he reads our heart no babble or tongues makes one closer to God or further from him. he's reading your heart not your words .... The gifts of 1 cor. was to speak and understand foreign language to preach the gospel around the world ...It had nothing to do with today's tongues ... Any one who believes they are more filled with Gods spirit because they speak babel is fooling themselves. When God poured out his spirit on Pentecost day it had nothing to do with babel they were given the full knowledge of God so they could start the church...remember when the apostles didn't understand Christs words when he was alive ... After Pentecost they understood because they were given the knowledge, this knowledge was what they prophesied.. the Word of God the good News of Jesus Christ in all natural human languages. We have it in the form of the Bible these people did not ... Speaking Babel was never a gift ... speaking foreign language of men was the gift .... and if you didn't speak the language of those you were preaching to how were they to understand the good news that's why you were told to have an interpreter ... Paul uses edify self in a negative context in 1 cor. told them not to do this ...Do what preach in a language the people could not understand as it only made one self feel good but it does nothing for the church ... Another words if someone gives a great speech in Arabic they may pat themselves on the back(feel edified) ..but what did it do for you what did it do for God.....Nothing
The speculation is on your part Christina...First off I do not recall anyone saying that they are more spiritual because they pray in the Spirit (tongues)..Second...I admit that the on the Day of Pentcost they spoke in a known language..just not one that they themselves understood.You are calling it babel..the Bible calls it praying in the spirit...And you can not answer the question..Paul spoke in tongues more than all..but not in church..where did he speak?
"Any one who believes they are more filled with Gods spirit because they speak babel is fooling themselves." -- Christina-- NO ONE has said "they are more filled with God's spirit" because they speak in tongues. Try to be honest, okay?"As for the rest of this .... there is no evidence anywhere anyone ever spoke babble .... There is no Unknown tongue in scripture there is prayer .." -- ChristinaReally? 1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."Please show me where speaking to God in this tongue unknown to man is a bad thing.If your sole intention is to be speaking to God in prayer and praise, then you are accomplishing exactly what you set out for."God understands all languages because he reads our heart no babble or tongues makes one closer to God or further from him." -- Christina-- You have just made an argument for not speaking to God outloud period. Why? Because he reads your heart so speaking it outloud serves no purpose, right? Praying and worshiping God in the spirit is of course babble to you.It isn't intended for you and your close mind isn't able to comprehend.But God listens...and understands.
Amen! I did not read your post before I responded..."All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"" (Acts 2:4-12)1.120 believers all began rejoicing and praising God in tongues at the same time. This noise drew a crowd!2.The people in the crowd recognized their native languages being spoken. 3.Many Christians assume that when the disciples spoke in tongues at Pentecost it was for the purpose of witnessing to this crowd in their native languages, but in reality the disciples were not talking to the crowd at all. The disciples were all together in a house, rejoicing and praising God in different languages. 4.The people in the crowd said, "we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" In other words, the disciples were praising God, telling Him of His wonders, as in Psalms 40:5 and 66:3: "Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5) "Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3) Why were the disciples praising God in tongues?.... Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues: "If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16) At Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit (they were praying in the Spirit), they were not sharing the Gospel in tongues.
 

Christina

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"Any one who believes they are more filled with Gods spirit because they speak babel is fooling themselves." -- Christina-- NO ONE has said "they are more filled with God's spirit" because they speak in tongues. Try to be honest, okay?"As for the rest of this .... there is no evidence anywhere anyone ever spoke babble .... There is no Unknown tongue in scripture there is prayer .." -- ChristinaReally? 1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."Please show me where speaking to God in this tongue unknown to man is a bad thing.If your sole intention is to be speaking to God in prayer and praise, then you are accomplishing exactly what you set out for."God understands all languages because he reads our heart no babble or tongues makes one closer to God or further from him." -- Christina-- You have just made an argument for not speaking to God outloud period. Why? Because he reads your heart so speaking it outloud serves no purpose, right? Praying and worshiping God in the spirit is of course babble to you.It isn't intended for you and your close mind isn't able to comprehend.But God listens...and understands.
I dont know why you have such a hostile attitude Polar but yeah thats right God knows our heart we do not have to speak out loud and the verse you gave the word unknown isnt in the manuscripts it was added by men "Mysteries" as given in the Greek text is "divine secrets"; so why would he be speaking in divine secrets? Note also that the word "unknown" was added by the translators for it just wasn't there in the manuscripts. Another word "tongue" also come in here and in Strong's Greek dictionary it is # 1100. "Glossa, gloce-sah'; a language, (specifically, one naturally acquired by men )."Tongue" as given in this chapter is one language that you have naturally acquired by learning. So the tongue that Paul is talking about is a language that is not your natural tongue, it is one that you have acquired outside your home. If one takes french in school they have learned a formely unknown to them tongue (language) Remember the great commission that Jesus gave; to take the gospel to the world. If Christians could only speak English, then the other peoples of the world simply would not understand what the gospel was all about. This was the gift not todays gibberish ...So yes thats what I say because thats what the Word of God says. and your mistaken if you think they do not say they are more filled with the spirit when they speak in tonuges because they say its another baptism of spirit and if you do not speak babble its because you are not as filled with his Holy spirit. after 10,000 conversations here on this topic thats excatly what they claim.
 

setfree

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Even non-charismatic commentaries agree that the disciples were praising God in tongues and not sharing the Gospel."The topic the people discussed in all these languages was the wonders of God. It seems they were praising God. Their message was not one of repentance; it was not the gospel.("The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.358) Notice that the purpose for tongues at Pentecost was not for sharing the Gospel with foreigners in their native languages. In fact, nowhere does the New Testament say that speaking in tongues is for witnessing to foreigners
 

setfree

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I appreciate my detractors causing me to look again at the foundation of my beliefs and why I still engage them and practice them. As i was Reading 1 Cor 14 again, I remembered why I was liberated to follow the practice of Paul and the early believers, because I believe what God's word has to say to me about tongues, gifts and edifying the Church. It also reminds me that the justifications that Pariah, Christina and Jordan use to dismiss the gift of tongues can also be used to invalidate and dismiss the salvation of God in Christ..God forbid. But its true, think for a moment, tongues abused, salvation abused, tongues out of order, God's people out of order, scriptures twisted to pervert tongues, scriptures twisted to pervert salvation. In a very real way, I could say "Salvation is not for today, because of so much abuse, disorderliness and lack of biblical imitation. The craziest part is....should we not seek for salvation because some pervert it? Should we not seek for tongues because some misuse or miss edifying the body of Christ altogether? I think the obvious answer is, we dont turn away from salvation any moreso those lesser gifts which God grace gifts us with. But this obvious lesson in seeking Christ has not registered in these three. The above quote, I had to reintroduce it because its so outlandish you wonder that Pariah has no proportion in her thinking? Tongues is not a fable, its biblical and the bible she is so happy to copy paste, also exhorts me to vs 12 "ye may excel to the edifying of the church." Im to excel in building up the Church...but how? To excel in Spiritual gifts being exercised thats how. The whole of Pauls lesson in the chapter deals with "how to orderly edify (build up) the Church" with the operation of Spiritual gifts. We know this by the exhortation to prophecy, to foretell and forthtell the word of God to the congregation. Jordan actually said, and Im waiting for an answer.. the bible doesnt say anywhere to edify yourself only. Well..what does this text say?1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; ....So, clearly the bible does say that tongues will edify ones self. We might note clearly that Paul wanted the Corinthians to do more than edify themselves but to edify each other when the come together. Simply put, edify yourself and in public edify one another. Paul in a very clever way was saying that, "you excel in edifying yourselves, but instead of the gift of God being only personal edification, seek God that you might use that same gift to edify in the public assembly". So Paul wants to clear away the "restrictive usage of tongues" in private and expand it in an orderly fashion so that God is glorified in its orderly public usage in conjuction with interpretation. But, alas, I have three folks who have entirely reversed this scenario and develope interpretations and conclusions that do not imitate the godly faith that is expressed in 1 Cor 14. Paul..."use your faith to edify with tongues and interpretation, and even better prophecy"...Pariah, Christina..."Tongues are not for today and if you speak in them, you are confused and creating problems in the body of Christ". Again...Paul "Seek Spiritual gifts and seek to superabound (excel) in building up the Church with those Charismatic giftings" Pariah, Christina..."Seek to avoid spiritual gifts, stay away from tongues, pray in english alone, the bible is enough". Lastly..Pariah said.."If I pray in tongues privately something is wrong way off...and that some spirit is coming between Christ and I if I am praying in tongues". So, Pariah is either rashly presuming on me, or she is trying to prophecy over me...and clearly if she is..falsely. Please...those of you who are reading this...which one is biblical? Pauls exhortation as I have given it... or, Pariah, Jordan and Christina telling you, you cant have it, or, you shouldnt want it, or if you do speak in tongues you might have another 'spirit' and should be worried about it? I welcome my detractors to explain their decisions to teach others the very opposite of the apostle Paul.Josiahdefender
I believe the Bible...and I believe it teaches that tongues are for today and necessary!
 

Polar

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"I dont know why you have such a hostile attitude Polar" -- Christina-- You post something like, "Any one who believes they are more filled with Gods spirit because they speak babel is fooling themselves." and you wonder? The very statement itself is confrontational, let alone calling praying in the spirit simply "babble.""and your mistaken if you think they do not say they are more filled with the spirit when they speak in tonuges because they say its another baptism of spirit and if you do not speak babble its because you are not as filled with his Holy spirit.after 10,000 conversations here on this topic thats excatly what they claim." -- Christina-- Perhaps now would be a good time for a specific example in order to give that statement legitimacy. "Second...I admit that the on the Day of Pentcost they spoke in a known language..just not one that they themselves understood.You are calling it babel..the Bible calls it praying in the spirit...And you can not answer the question..Paul spoke in tongues more than all..but not in church..where did he speak?" -- Setfree-- The first two sentences are very valid.I, too, am waiting to see how the third sentence will be answered.1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."-- The 'but unto God' part explains the speaking in tongues to pray and praise perfectly. "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"" (Acts 2:4-12)1.120 believers all began rejoicing and praising God in tongues at the same time. This noise drew a crowd!2.The people in the crowd recognized their native languages being spoken. 3.Many Christians assume that when the disciples spoke in tongues at Pentecost it was for the purpose of witnessing to this crowd in their native languages, but in reality the disciples were not talking to the crowd at all. The disciples were all together in a house, rejoicing and praising God in different languages. 4.The people in the crowd said, "we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" In other words, the disciples were praising God, telling Him of His wonders, as in Psalms 40:5 and 66:3:"-- Another point to note is that there was no one there with the gift of interpretation who had to tell the people what the apostles were saying.I am willing to bet that the apostles doing the talking in their non-native tongue were more amazed by the act than the content.Hmmm...Because they didn't/couldn't understand the language they were speaking in, and no one was there to "interpret" what they said, was it simple babble that served no purpose whatsoever?
 

setfree

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Another observation....The crowd which had gathered.... These were Jews from other nations who were in Jerusalem during the festival of Pentecost, and they were able to speak to one another in a common language because they said to each other, "how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?" Many commentaries suggest that these Jews all spoke Greek (the common language of the time), although Hebrew is another strong possibility. These Jews were living in Jerusalem for some period of time and they all knew a common language, and they were able to speak to each other and understand each other. These people did not need to be told the Gospel in their own native languages, and that was not the purpose for speaking in tongues at Pentecost.
 

Christina

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Thats just plain not true no matter how angry you get ....the Fact is on Penecost Day they all understood in their very own language there never was a gibberish prayer Language ... but think what you like the experts say differnt and futher more God himself says there is one God one religion and one baptism and its not about tongues... After the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Ac. 2:4) When the apostles are filled with the Holy Spirit they become the Spirit’s mouthpiece by speaking in tongues (i.e., spoken foreign languages) to a large assembly of foreign Jews. Because the gift of tongues is greatly misunderstood in our day (primarily by Charismatics) it is important that we carefully define the biblical phenomenon of tongues. What are the biblical tongues? Should we expect to see the gift of tongues practiced in the present day? Should believers seek the gift of tongues? These and other questions will be answered as we study tongues in Scripture. There are many areas to consider. (1) The term tongues (in Greek glossa, plural glossais) when used of human speech always refers to the speaking of actual human languages.59 In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) the word glossa occurs thirty times and always refers to real human languages.60 In the book of Acts where we are introduced to the supernatural phenomenon of tongues speaking, Luke emphasizes the fact the that apostles were speaking real, known, human languages. “And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, ‘Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?’” (Acts 2:5-8 ) That the disciples were speaking real human languages is evident in the following observations. (a) The tongues were immediately understood by the hearers from several different Roman provinces and lands without any need for interpretation. This fact can only mean that the apostles were speaking real, normal languages. Remember the miracle or sign was in the speaking; not in the hearing. The hearers at this point were not even believers. “What this speaking ‘with different tongues’ means is stated in v. 6: ‘everyone heard them speaking in his own language;’ and in v. 11 : ‘we are hearing them telling with our own tongue the great things of God.’ The disciples spoke in foreign languages that were hitherto unknown to them, in the very languages of the natives of the foreign lands who were presently assembled before themhttp://www.entrewave.com/view/reformedonline/Pentecost, part 5.htm
 

setfree

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who is angry? I am not angry...While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised [Jewish] believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." (Acts 10:44-46) While the apostle Peter was teaching Cornelius and his household about Christ, the Holy Spirit came on everyone who heard the message. They all began speaking in tongues, but they were not witnessing to anyone because every non-Christian in the house had just gotten saved (i.e. there was no-one else present who needed to hear the Gospel). Instead, they were praising God in tongues by the Holy Spirit, just like the disciples did on the day of Pentecost.
 

setfree

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conclusions that I draw from these examples Acts 2, 10, 19 In every passage where people spoke in tongues in the book of Acts....every new believer spoke in tongues. In the first two examples of tongues, the purpose was to praise God in the Holy Spirit. In the third example, the new believers "spoke in tongues and prophesied." Those believers might have prophesied in tongues, but it is likely that they were also praising God in tongues (based on the other two examples of people praising God in tongues). There was not a single example of anyone speaking in tongues for the purpose of sharing the Gospel with foreigners. There is never even a hint of such a purpose in Scripture. People were speaking to God in tongues. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said: "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2) So when people spoke in tongues in the above passages, they were praying directly to God in the Holy Spirit. In other words, the communication was going from earth up to heaven. Now take a look at another statement that the apostle Paul made: "He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5) Here Paul said that when a person speaks a message in tongues to a church congregation, the message must be interpreted so that the congregation can be edified (i.e. so that the message will benefit them, instruct them, build them up in their faith, etc.). This describes another form of tongues in which a message is delivered from heaven down to earth, which must be interpreted into the local language. So there are actually two purposes for tongues in the New Testament, which is something that many Christians don't realize. There is a "public" form of tongues for delivering a message from God to a group of people (which must be interpreted into the local language), and there is a "private" form of tongues for speaking to God (praying to Him in the Spirit). Each form of tongues has a different purpose.
 

setfree

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"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." (1 Corinthians 13:1) The apostle Paul mentioned the tongues of angels, which are not likely to be human languages because angels were created long before humans were. Paul might have heard the language(s) of angels when he was taken up into heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-7. Also see The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.535). Many people believe that speaking in tongues refers to the supernatural gift of speaking in unlearned human languages, but the above passage disproves that view. In other words, we have no way of knowing whether the Holy Spirit will choose to speak through us in a human language or an angelic language, so we cannot be dogmatic that tongues only refers to human languages. Paul said that if we are not speaking in love then we are just making a bunch of noise. This means that when we are speaking to other people we should do it in love, and therefore this is a reference to the public form of tongues.
 

Christina

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"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." (1 Corinthians 13:1) The apostle Paul mentioned the tongues of angels, which are not likely to be human languages because angels were created long before humans were. Paul might have heard the language(s) of angels when he was taken up into heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-7. Also see The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.535). Many people believe that speaking in tongues refers to the supernatural gift of speaking in unlearned human languages, but the above passage disproves that view. In other words, we have no way of knowing whether the Holy Spirit will choose to speak through us in a human language or an angelic language, so we cannot be dogmatic that tongues only refers to human languages. Paul said that if we are not speaking in love then we are just making a bunch of noise. This means that when we are speaking to other people we should do it in love, and therefore this is a reference to the public form of tongues.
That is complete speculation Angels communicated with men all the time their very title means messengers their language was always understood by the hearer and even if they speak the orginal language before God seperated it into human languages at the tower of babbel it would still be understood by those they were giving the message to God doesnt send gibberish messages .... And sense the holy spirit is of God not Angels what possiable differeance does it make...But lets assume you are right for a minute Satan is a Angel so without knowing what your saying how do you know its not of Satan and his as even those like Judas and Saul could not tell the difference between when Satans entered and spoke/acted through them and the holy spirit as Logabe once documented here. ...You can not weigh babbel against the Word.. we are told not to worship or pray to Angels for a reason Satan is one ..... Thats why God says weigh everything against his Words ..how do you weigh gibberish ...which I believe is a point Pariah made earlier...
 

Polar

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"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised [Jewish] believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." (Acts 10:44-46) While the apostle Peter was teaching Cornelius and his household about Christ, the Holy Spirit came on everyone who heard the message. They all began speaking in tongues, but they were not witnessing to anyone because every non-Christian in the house had just gotten saved (i.e. there was no-one else present who needed to hear the Gospel). Instead, they were praising God in tongues by the Holy Spirit, just like the disciples did on the day of Pentecost." -- Setfree^ ^ ^ ^ ^ True."In every passage where people spoke in tongues in the book of Acts....every new believer spoke in tongues."^ ^ ^ ^ ^ True.1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."-- Again, the 'but unto God' part explains the speaking in tongues to pray and praise perfectly.
 

Christina

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The problem with this whole idea Polar is the Word tongues simply means Human languages the natural human languages of men this is a fact no one can change .... The Word language didn't exist at all.Its a modern English word ... All writings from these periods even novels used the word tongues for language ...the Word unknown isnt in the scriptures (added by man) and simply meant it wasnt their native language ... This is why until the Pentecostal movement ..of the last century this was never taught the Apostles didnt teach it God didnt say it.You are taking a man made doctrine and applying it to scripture based on a word that meant human languages... It is used 31 other times in scripture and always means the natural languages of men ...the rest of whats said is pure speculation. And bad interpretations The very gift on Pentecost Day was speaking in the Natural HUMAN Languages of all present that's what scripture says period and it was understood by ALL present each in his own Language even down to the accents of different areas ... Is gibberish understood by all? Praising God is something we all as Christians do everyday no matter what language we speak where is your proof praising God was done in gibberish??? The only way one can come to this conclusion is to predetermine that tongues as written in these scriptures is the tongues of today So you are approaching the Word from an already preconceived idea ...Not as a child as we are told wanting to learn what Gods says but as a one trying to prove an idea he received from men...This is another one of those American ideas that is no where else in the World except where Pentecostals spread it...Dont get me wrong here it doesnt matter to me how one prays .... My issue with this is its not Biblical as a Bible study site we are concerned with what is written in the Word not what one chooses to do Today tongues of gibberish is not written about .... muttering sounds is not the gift of 1 Cor. and its not the miracle of Penecost Day...
 

Polar

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"Praising God is something we all as Christians do everyday no matter what language we speak where is your proof praising God was done in gibberish???" -- Christina-- What an absolutely silly thing to say. If you pray in the spirit and God understand what you are saying, it is not gibberish. Try to wrap your head around that."1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."-- So he is speaking about 'gibberish here? ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Oh, please.Speaking...NOT...to...men...but...to...God...for NO MAN understand him!For IN THE SPIRIT he speaketh mysteries.It is an "unknown tongue" meaning man doesn't understand it. But as it says...God DOES.When you have to fall back on the "the translation is bad" argument, it may allow you not to have to prove anything, but it greatly diminishes your credibility.
 

Jordan

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Polar, with all due respect,I Corinthians 10:10 - Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.This verse clearly indicate this type of speaking in tongues you and some others talking about. And other references below.I Corinthians 14:9 - So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.I Corinthians 14:10 - There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.I Corinthians 14:11 - Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.Polar, did God speaketh in mysteries where He doesn't want anybody to know? How about Christ? If so, where in the bible did they speak in mysteries and edifying themselves and not the children?
 

Pariah

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Pariah cannot prove her assertions, she can only say "tongues are not for today" and then string some texts together that supposedly prove her point. But the problem lay in the fact that she cannot bring any scripture text to remove my clear assertions from the biblical text that Spiritual gifts are to be sought, they are to be believed upon and obtained by faith and practiced in accordance with biblical orderliness.
Pariah is a he, a guy, a member of the male gender. No biggie. I don't always check the profiles either. Course, maybe my profile has been reset since the turnover of this site. I should check.. God be willing.I have brought scriptures to the floor.There is not another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues. Ephesians 4:4-6 and 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly reproves that as a teaching from the Lord. Period. No ifs .. no buts ..and reading inbetween the lines in the Book of Acts just doesn't cut it with the clear instructions in regards to the faith sent to the churches. You guys are taking a historical account of the early church and making up doctrines that goes against the faith in Jesus Christ ALL for promoting tongues found already in the world being used as a prayer language which is so easily gained magically by seeking another spirit to receive and getting away with it by hypocrsiey by calling those spirits, the Holy Spirit, to come when He is already in you as promised by Jesus.If God the Father already knows before you even ask in prayer, then what need be there for prayer language that is being done in the world when God wants us to stand apart from the world?Is prayer language listed a as manifestation for tongues? NO! All the manifestations of the Spirit are listed. Stop ignoring that key point! 1 Corinthians 12:7-11The unknown tongue in verse 2 of 1 Corinthians 14 is the same tongue Paul is talking about throughout the whole chapter as tongues that is spoken in other languages of men and it is to come with interpretation. He began the chapter of seeking prophesy over ALL spiritual gifts and then he went into downplaying tongues in verse two as what that gift is by itself and goes on to compare with prophesy as a gift by itself in regards to the edification of the body withal... as all manifestations of the Spirit are given to profit withal. 1 Corinthians 12 You guys took Paul comparing tongues by itself with the gift of prophesy as if tongues is the gift to seek as if validating tongue as a stand alone gift when that was not what Paul was doing at all throughout that chapter. Read verse 1 again.
So, while you share her opinion, you offer nothing concrete either. I hope that those who desire spiritual gifts will read the weak and insufficient arguments of you both so that they might find freedom to edify the Church with tongues and interpretation and that they might receive the gift of tongues to pray in private as well.
Does God call us to stand apart from the world or not?Then how can He deliver those out of the occult if the practise of prayer language is the same in christianity? Who could say that they have repented? Who could say that they are not praying to another familiar spirit? God would not have any doubting His witnesses, but you guys sure can blur the lines for uncertainty.Is that concrete enough for you?Then how about this?1 John 4:1-6 If we speak as the world speak and hear as the world hear, how can we stand apart then?
I will ask though, what scripture text are you using to validate that tongues must be in public only and that tongues in private are not edifying or that personal edification is rejected by Paul?
As stated earlier in this post: that was not what Paul was doing. He even stated by comparing tongues by itself to prophesy that he understood not what he was saying and thus unfruitful. Thus he went on to explain the necessity of interpretation as tongues cannot serve as a stand alone gift for we are edified by the Word understood. The fact that the manifestations of the Spirit are all listed does not have tongues as a stand alone gift as it is to be followed by the interpretation of those tongues! It cannot serve as a prayer langauge because it was never meant to serve a as prayer language as tongues are a sign for unbelievers.... as in foreign languages to speak unto them.
I promise to read the texts in context and respond. But I do ask you actually answer my questions directly.
Wished you would not gloss over that which you cannot answer yourself.Can you be a witness of Jesus Christ to stand apart from the world if you practise prayer language already found in the world?
 

Pariah

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"Praising God is something we all as Christians do everyday no matter what language we speak where is your proof praising God was done in gibberish???" -- Christina-- What an absolutely silly thing to say. If you pray in the spirit and God understand what you are saying, it is not gibberish. Try to wrap your head around that."1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."-- So he is speaking about 'gibberish here? ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Oh, please.Speaking...NOT...to...men...but...to...God...for NO MAN understand him!For IN THE SPIRIT he speaketh mysteries.It is an "unknown tongue" meaning man doesn't understand it. But as it says...God DOES.When you have to fall back on the "the translation is bad" argument, it may allow you not to have to prove anything, but it greatly diminishes your credibility.
How about ignoring the whole point of the chapter argument?1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. Point #1. Out of all spiritual gifts to seek, which one did Paul exorted in the very first verse? Now hold that theme as you read into the next verse.2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.Wow. What a shift. From exhorting prophesy and then starts talking about tongues all of a sudden. Why? So Paul can compare tongue by itself in regards to edifying the body as he goes onto the next verse in comparing that to prophesy as teh gift to seek OVER tongues!!!! 3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.More proof of clarity? Read the next verse of tongue in comparison to prophesy. 4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.And what were the manifestation of the Spirit given for? 1 Corinthians 11:7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.So read on with that theme in mind as tongues continued to be downplayed as a singular gift to seek as prophesy is to be sought over ALL spiritual gift.5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.So that is the explanation as to why tongues is not a stand alone gift as he instructs this next. 13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.Now comes what Paul says of tongues by itself even for himself next. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Paul goes on to make sure believers do not misinterpret the above verse as saying he uses tongue as a prayer language.20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.Thus the same tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue in verse 21.. a foreign language to be interpreted. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.Therefore believers are not to seek tongues a as a sign or proof of anything. 23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?And if someone came on you praying privately in a prayer language, would they not say the same thing? 24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.So here is be the end result of the manifestation of the Spirit to bring out that report above.26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. So that means no set aside prayer langauge time for the whole assembly lest they cause someon to think they are mad.29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.Many will testify that the "spirit" will interrupt their praying and do the babbling part. For what? And how is that not going against scripture of the spirits of the prophet are subject to the prophets? 34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.And yet women speak in tongues? Another red flag as why would God give the commandment and then manifest tongues in women and get them in trouble? 38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40Let all things be done decently and in order.It is obvious that Paul was donwplaying tongues by itself so much that he made sure he was not misunderstood as forbidding tongues that comes with interpretation... as done in order and decency.
 

Christina

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Apr 10, 2006
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"Praising God is something we all as Christians do everyday no matter what language we speak where is your proof praising God was done in gibberish???" -- Christina-- What an absolutely silly thing to say. If you pray in the spirit and God understand what you are saying, it is not gibberish. Try to wrap your head around that."1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."-- So he is speaking about 'gibberish here? ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Oh, please.Speaking...NOT...to...men...but...to...God...for NO MAN understand him!For IN THE SPIRIT he speaketh mysteries.It is an "unknown tongue" meaning man doesn't understand it. But as it says...God DOES.When you have to fall back on the "the translation is bad" argument, it may allow you not to have to prove anything, but it greatly diminishes your credibility.
Heres Adam Clarks comentary these verses they are difficult to understand even for the experts yet tongues speakers think they are just what they chose to believe because of their preconceived beliefs .... No matter how many times you repeat the verse ..It still uses the Word for tongues that means a human language thats a facts no one can argue ... Verse 1. Follow after charity] Most earnestly labour to be put in possession of that love which beareth, believeth, hopeth, and endureth all things. It may be difficult to acquire, and difficult to retain this blessed state, but it is essential to your present peace and eternal happiness. This clause belongs to the preceding chapter. Desire spiritual gifts] Ye are very intent on getting those splendid gifts which may add to your worldly consequence, and please your carnal minds-but labour rather to get the gifts of God's Spirit, by which ye may grow in grace, and be useful to others-and particularly desire that ye may prophesy-that ye may be able to teach and instruct others in the things of their salvation. Verse 2. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue] This chapter is crowded with difficulties. It is not likely that the Holy Spirit should, in the church, suddenly inspire a man with the knowledge of some foreign language, which none in the church understood but himself; and lead him to treat the mysteries of Christianity in that language, though none in the place could profit by his teaching. (my remark here...the experts understand that speaking forgeign languages was the gift but this verse is likely not talking of the gift for the reasons given.)Dr. Lightfoot's mode of reconciling these difficulties is the most likely I have met with. He supposes that by the unknown tongue the Hebrew is meant, and that God restored the true knowledge of this language when he gave the apostles the gift of tongues. As the Scriptures of the Old Testament were contained in this language, and it has beauties, energies, and depths in it which no verbal translation can reach, it was necessary, for the proper elucidation of the prophecies concerning the Messiah, and the establishment of the Christian religion, that the full meaning of the words of this sacred language should be properly understood. And it is possible that the Hebrew Scriptures were sometimes read in the Christian congregations as they were in the Jewish synagogues; and if the person who read and understood them had not the power and faculty of explaining them to others, in vain did he read and understand them himself. (My remark (understanding this was a human language he is trying to reconcile it with the verse concluding it to be true hebrew the language of God) And we know that it is possible for a man to understand a language, the force, phraseology, and idioms of which he is incapable of explaining even in his mother tongue. We shall see, in the course of these notes, how this view of the subject will apply to the illustration of the apostle's words throughout the chapter. Speaketh not unto men, but unto God] None present understanding the language, God alone knowing the truth and import of what he says:- In the spirit he speaketh mysteries.] Though his own mind apprehends the mysteries contained in the words which he reads or utters; but if, by the spirit, we understand the Spirit of God, it only shows that it is by that Spirit that he is enabled to speak and apprehend these mysteries. See the note on 1 Cor. xiv. 19. (My remark he is in essence saying no man understands all the mysteries and truth of God contained in the Words but by Gods spiritthey could understand these mysteries ...So they could start the church again this is not gibberish that couldnr be understood but the truth of the mysteries of God ) Verse 3. But he that prophesieth] The person who has the gift of teaching is much more useful to the Church than he is who has only the gift of tongues, because he speaks to the profit of men: viz. to their edification, by the Scriptures he expounds; to their exhortation, by what he teaches; and to their comfort, by his revelation. - Whitby. I must here refer to my sermon on this text, intitled, "The Christian Prophet and his Work," in which I have endeavoured to consider the whole of this subject at large. Verse 4. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue] In the Hebrew for instance, the knowledge of the depth and power of which he has got by a Divine revelation, edifieth himself by that knowledge. But he that prophesieth] Has the gift of preaching. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..Now you can be insulting and criticize my credibility if you like but many experts agree with me ... So believe what you choose but I have shown you a truth agreed to by many more knowlegable than myself ....
 

gumby

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I havnt really tried it, i dont know if i can say anything bad about it on the other hand though.