Saved Or Predestined ???

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Josho

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Now back to main topic

Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

That's right God loves every human being, and anyone can be saved from sin if they choose to believe that Jesus is Lord and Saviour.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep? He is the Good Shepherd that is why He dies for His sheep. He would not die for the thieves and robbers, and for the wolves. Why would He?

My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context. Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about.

Tong
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You say that I am being "narrow" when I present all those passages that say that Jesus is the "propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn. 3:16. God, "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9."

Jesus died on the Cross for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (this is separate from just the sins of believers), Jesus gave the offer of eternal life to the WORLD that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES... not ONLY THE SHEEP...

The Lord is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish...

Yet you take one passage out of context and say that Jesus ONLY DIED FOR THE SHEEP! And you say that I am being too "narrow?"

When is comes to Atonement effectual, yes, Jesus died only for the Sheep, because only the Sheep benefit directly! Who here has denied it?

Yet, Scripture is plain and clear that the Atonement is for all... potentially, and conditionally.

In John chapter 10, Jesus tells us in His discourse, "I am the door; IF ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (V.9). If ANYONE enters the door through Jesus Christ, he shall be saved; they will become Sheep!

Jesus defines who the Sheep are; What constitutes a "Sheep"?

Verse 27, "My Sheep hear (present active) My voice, and I know them, and they follow (present active) Me." Who is a Sheep? Only those who presently are hearing and following the Shepard! Being a Sheep is not some state existing in the past, but only in the present! Jesus said so!

To many in the crowd that Jesus is speaking to that did not believe, Jesus did not say, "The Shepard does not give His life for you!"
Jesus reasons with them saying, "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (verses 37, 38). Why? To what end does Jesus appeal to unbelievers that they should "believe" and "understand"? Was Jesus acting like an arrogant petulant Child saying, "Nah! Nah! You aren't getting to Heaven!" Or is it obvious by what He declared in verse 9 and 27 that Jesus wants those He speaks to, to BECOME SHEEP?

You cannot rip Jesus out of context and defy all other inspired Scriptures and be teaching that the Atonement is limited, and still say that is what the Bible teaches!
Too many things to address here. I hope the readers would be patient enough to read this long post for I will try to address all points.

I did not say you are narrow Sir Candidus. Here's what I said and I quote "Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about."

I also said, "My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context." I did not attempt to show that because, besides the fact that it will take a lot of writing, it is a totally another issue. But if you want, just say so, be it in a new and separate thread or in this thread, no problem. Let me make a few statements as a matter of clarification on that issue. On the matter of context, the word "world" and "all" are general collective terms and should be carefully taken it their proper sense and meaning, for there are scriptures, like that of John 10, where the death of Jesus for the purpose of saving from sin and death, clearly is presented as only for a certain specific chosen people (the sheep) and not all, which truth is revealed in reality, all throughout history and all over the globe. On the matter of a narrow understanding of the life and death of Christ, the death of Christ must not be limited to only be for salvation from sin and death, because there is more to that. In scriptures, when it speaks of salvation, it does not only refer to salvation from sin and death, but also from a lot of other things.

You said "The Lord is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish...". That's right, scriptures says that. So? There are a lot that God is not willing, or in other human terms, God does not intend or desire, or wish (? if I may use that word). One is that, that any should be killed, perish, or destroyed. Another is that, that any should worship idols. Another is that, that any should kill or murder. Generally, that any would not keep all His commands. So many that God is not willing, does not intend or desire, or wish, yet He allowed them to be. That could only be said to be part of His plan, for there is nothing that happens and comes to pass that is not for the working out of God's will, plan, purpose, pleasure, which all are for His glory. It could not be anything otherwise, for God knows and is in control of everything that happens. Did not Jesus said even of the sparrows, "not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will." He is truly God who rules over all His creation, sustains it and does to it as He pleases. Nothing happens apart from God's will.

You said "Yet you take one passage out of context and say that Jesus ONLY DIED FOR THE SHEEP!". Out of context? No sir. Here's another passage. Read the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Tell me, if there is a change from tares to wheat or that the tares becomes wheat, or if there is a change from to wheat to tares or that the wheat becomes tares. One would not miss what is there in the parable as it is explained there by Jesus to His disciples.

You talk about atonement. That is for another topic. If you want, you can start a new thread and I would be glad to discuss that with you there.

You said "If ANYONE enters the door through Jesus Christ, he shall be saved; they will become Sheep!" Yes, he shall be saved. But become sheep? ~That is your interpretation my friend which is clearly just not there. You are entitled to you opinion and interpretation Sir. But what I am saying is that, such interpretation is not necessarily the correct one, on at least 2 points. One is that, the idea of "becoming a sheep" is foreign to the context. And two is that, Jesus had just made it clear, prior to verse 9, that He is the door of the sheep. If you understand what that means, where the door is a passageway and says on the door "door of the sheep", what does that say to you? So, the "anyone" had already been identified or categorized, that is, any of His sheep. If any man therefore enter the door, who is such man, if not the sheep? There is not even the slightest hint that the man who enters the door is not a sheep but is something else other than a sheep, who after entering the door becomes a sheep like magic. He is just a lost sheep who was sought and was found and brought home.

You said "Jesus defines who the Sheep are; What constitutes a "Sheep"? Verse 27, "My Sheep hear (present active) My voice, and I know them, and they follow (present active) Me." Who is a Sheep? Only those who presently are hearing and following the Shepard! Being a Sheep is not some state existing in the past, but only in the present! Jesus said so!"

What Jesus gave us there is an identifying ability and an identifying behavior of His sheep. Well, we can take that as a definition. But definitely, Jesus is there not setting forth the conditions of becoming His sheep. Far from it.

To the rest of what remains of your post which I had not addressed above, here's what I could say. Jesus came to earth and He came in the flesh. He is the Son of Man. In Mt. 1:21, an angel of the Lord declared to Joseph, "He will save His people from their sins.” So, clearly, there mentioned there a particular identified people (His people ~ His sheep) whom Jesus came to save from their sins, that He came to earth.

Tong
R0094

 

Candidus

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Greetings PaulC!

If you, without the intervention of God, would on your own receive Christ, which is the very thing that you say God saw you doing even from the foundation of the world, I ask a few simple questions:

What is the point of God choosing you for salvation, when your believing Him is certain to happen even without His intervention? Is God afraid that it will come to pass that you change your mind along the way and so not believe? Of course not, right? What future God had seen concerning you, that will not change, right? So, I hope you get the point of my question and tell me your answer.

On the matter of what you said that God knew from the foundation of the world that you would receive Christ, so that He predestined you to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Now, predestined means, predetermined or preordained, something that is fixed or set, to change no longer. You said "Predestination is not pre-determination." So, it seems you are suggesting that you are predestined only after you are converted or perhaps at conversion. Okay, I have a few simple questions, what is the purpose of God having to predestine you? Does it mean that God saw your future beyond the point of your believing that you will not conform yourself to the image of His Son so that there is need to predestine that upon you? And if so, then would that not mean that God tampered with the future, at least the future of all those whom He saw in their future will believe in Him? That He changed the future of them from the time in each of their lives when they believed in Him? Is that what you believe? If so, can that be found in scriptures?

Tong
R0091
Genesis 18:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)

"And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Didn't God know? God heard an outcry, and He had to go down to validate its legitimacy? Or is He just lying here?
 
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Renniks

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Okay, let me just guess since you don't want to give a direct answer (yes or no) before you even explain. That you are included in those that God "foreknew". And so, let us go to the other part. Paul said, whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. In consideration with what you had said there in your post, since you are currently in relation with God, then you are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. And if predestined, which means, predetermined or preordained, something that is fixed or set, to change no longer, it will certainly come to pass. Now, if you are currently foreknown, you also are predestined. Do you say that God's predestination of you now can be undone (if not mean differently), depending on you? So that, what God had fixed to happen concerning you, you can change and undo anytime you like, when you break relationship with God? That currently you are a child of God and is predestined, and if you break relationship with God and be a child of God no longer, that predestination will be undone or lose its meaning, and again if you go back in relationship with God and be a child of God again, that predestination will be effective again or will get its meaning back?
Basically, yes, because this predestining is only effective for those who are in Christ.

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us.

These blessings and promises only apply to those who are in him.
 

kcnalp

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God knows everything!

Psalm 147:5
5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is INFINITE.

He knows every thought ever! He knows every drop in the oceans! He knows everything that will ever happen.
 

kcnalp

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Basically, yes, because this predestining is only effective for those who are in Christ..
Guess you missed what God said.

Proverbs 16:4
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
 

Tong2020

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If you believe and teach Fatalism... you are a Fatalist.

If you believe and teach a Limited Atonement, historically you align as being a Calvinist (in this particular instance).

Nancy Pelosi claims to be a good Roman Catholic... but she supports infanticide through abortion, stealing from those that work for their money, is for all kinds of sexual perversions and sin. Does that "brand" her as a Catholic, or as someone who is a bloodthirsty, Baby-murdering extortionist and a sick promoter of sexual perversion? Which traits "brand" her? Membership in Roman Catholic "Salvation Club?" Or her beliefs and actions?

So, are you suggesting by what you say there that it is good to brand people and call them names instead of their names? And that, based on what they think and how they percieved people?

And since you are sort of standing in defense of somebody else here, are you setting your action here as a good example that the Christian community here could follow? Well,...

You believe that there is one God. Even the demons believe and tremble! Do you want people calling you or brand you a demon? Even worse than the demons, if you don't tremble? Don't worry. I am a Christian. I won't do such bad, useless, offensive thing, especially to one who at least profess to be a Christian, a brethren. And I will rebuke and not defend anyone who will do that to you.


Tong

R0096
 

Renniks

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Now one more point, the sheep, when the gospel is preached to them, it does not mean that they automatically and instantly believe. Some might at the instant time of preaching, but not the same for all the sheep.
No, you can't wiggle out of it that way. If Jesus saying to these Jews that they are not his sheep means they cannot become sheep, then anyone within the hearing of his voice at that time had to have been born destined to damnation. There's no other possibility in your scenario.
 
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Candidus

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God made everyone of us KNOWING who would burn in Hell "forever and ever".
Jeremiah 26:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

2 “Thus says the Lord: ‘Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord’s house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings."
Jeremiah 26:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

Where is God's Foreknowledge? Where does that knowledge Predestine if God says that He will "I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose...?"

Things don't seem so sure with this Foreknowledge, do they!
 

Renniks

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Guess you missed what God said.

Proverbs 16:4
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Lol, have you ever tried reading the Bible in context?
Let's try not ripping one sentence out but reading what Solomon was saying in context:

Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans.

4 The Lord works out everything to its proper end—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Do you see the condition in the previous verse? Do you see the contrast of what happens to those who commit their ways to God and those who don't? Why are some given over to disaster? Because they are wicked. There's nothing there about God creating them for wickedness.
 

kcnalp

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Jeremiah 26:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

2 “Thus says the Lord: ‘Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord’s house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings."
Jeremiah 26:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

Where is God's Foreknowledge? Where does that knowledge Predestine if God says that He will "I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose...?"

Things don't seem so sure with this Foreknowledge, do they!
Since God's knowledge is "infinite" I will trust in Him.
 

Candidus

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So, are you suggesting by what you say there that it is good to brand people and call them names instead of their names? And that, based on what they think and how they percieved people?

And since you are sort of standing in defense of somebody else here, are you setting your action here as a good example that the Christian community here could follow? Well,...

You believe that there is one God. Even the demons believe and tremble! Do you want people calling you or brand you a demon? Even worse than the demons, if you don't tremble? Don't worry. I am a Christian. I won't do such bad, useless, offensive thing, especially to one who at least profess to be a Christian, a brethren. And I will rebuke and not defend anyone who will do that to you.


Tong

R0096


When somebody detours into the false doctrines of Gnosticism and Calvinism, it should be on the face of things.

No one uses my name either. Yet, I can be a called Father, Brother, Friend, Uncle, Sergeant, Fat, Ugly and a myriad of other things. I am known for many things, and if I am referred to it correctly, they can refer to me doctrinally and theologically. Go for it! As in another forum Kenneth Copeland has earned the moniker "False Prophet," if that is true (which it is), in the name of Christian character do we have to call him "Christian"?

Jesus called people "dogs," "swine," "whitewashed tombs," and "vipers"... I guess if He were more Christian about it He should have called them "Brethren" and "Good Jews." Weigh that with being called a Fatalist, a Calvinist, or a Gnostic... which is quite mild in my opinion!
 
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Grailhunter

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Too many things to address here. I hope the readers would be patient enough to read this long post for I will try to address all points.

I did not say you are narrow Sir Candidus. Here's what I said and I quote "Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about."

I also said, "My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context." I did not attempt to show that because, besides the fact that it will take a lot of writing, it is a totally another issue. But if you want, just say so, be it in a new and separate thread or in this thread, no problem. Let me make a few statements as a matter of clarification on that issue. On the matter of context, the word "world" and "all" are general collective terms and should be carefully taken it their proper sense and meaning, for there are scriptures, like that of John 10, where the death of Jesus for the purpose of saving from sin and death, clearly is presented as only for a certain specific chosen people (the sheep) and not all, which truth is revealed in reality, all throughout history and all over the globe. On the matter of a narrow understanding of the life and death of Christ, the death of Christ must not be limited to only be for salvation from sin and death, because there is more to that. In scriptures, when it speaks of salvation, it does not only refer to salvation from sin and death, but also from a lot of other things.

You said "The Lord is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish...". That's right, scriptures says that. So? There are a lot that God is not willing, or in other human terms, God does not intend or desire, or wish (? if I may use that word). One is that, that any should be killed, perish, or destroyed. Another is that, that any should worship idols. Another is that, that any should kill or murder. Generally, that any would not keep all His commands. So many that God is not willing, does not intend or desire, or wish, yet He allowed them to be. That could only be said to be part of His plan, for there is nothing that happens and comes to pass that is not for the working out of God's will, plan, purpose, pleasure, which all are for His glory. It could not be anything otherwise, for God knows and is in control of everything that happens. Did not Jesus said even of the sparrows, "not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will." He is truly God who rules over all His creation, sustains it and does to it as He pleases. Nothing happens apart from God's will.

You said "Yet you take one passage out of context and say that Jesus ONLY DIED FOR THE SHEEP!". Out of context? No sir. Here's another passage. Read the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Tell me, if there is a change from tares to wheat or that the tares becomes wheat, or if there is a change from to wheat to tares or that the wheat becomes tares. One would not miss what is there in the parable as it is explained there by Jesus to His disciples.

You talk about atonement. That is for another topic. If you want, you can start a new thread and I would be glad to discuss that with you there.

You said "If ANYONE enters the door through Jesus Christ, he shall be saved; they will become Sheep!" Yes, he shall be saved. But become sheep? ~That is your interpretation my friend which is clearly just not there. You are entitled to you opinion and interpretation Sir. But what I am saying is that, such interpretation is not necessarily the correct one, on at least 2 points. One is that, the idea of "becoming a sheep" is foreign to the context. And two is that, Jesus had just made it clear, prior to verse 9, that He is the door of the sheep. If you understand what that means, where the door is a passageway and says on the door "door of the sheep", what does that say to you? So, the "anyone" had already been identified or categorized, that is, any of His sheep. If any man therefore enter the door, who is such man, if not the sheep? There is not even the slightest hint that the man who enters the door is not a sheep but is something else other than a sheep, who after entering the door becomes a sheep like magic. He is just a lost sheep who was sought and was found and brought home.

You said "Jesus defines who the Sheep are; What constitutes a "Sheep"? Verse 27, "My Sheep hear (present active) My voice, and I know them, and they follow (present active) Me." Who is a Sheep? Only those who presently are hearing and following the Shepard! Being a Sheep is not some state existing in the past, but only in the present! Jesus said so!"

What Jesus gave us there is an identifying ability and an identifying behavior of His sheep. Well, we can take that as a definition. But definitely, Jesus is there not setting forth the conditions of becoming His sheep. Far from it.

To the rest of what remains of your post which I had not addressed above, here's what I could say. Jesus came to earth and He came in the flesh. He is the Son of Man. In Mt. 1:21, an angel of the Lord declared to Joseph, "He will save His people from their sins.” So, clearly, there mentioned there a particular identified people (His people ~ His sheep) whom Jesus came to save from their sins, that He came to earth.

Tong
R0094
Now let’s take a look at another demonic side of this predestinationist religion.

I have had a lot of experiences with this sort. I have rescued women and children from Calvinist families and I have assisted in apprehending a few and put a few in jail. Why does this happen? Maybe it has to do with those that perceive themselves as the “elect.” If you are into law enforcement in the rural areas there are two groups that you have to keep an eye on, the predestinationists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some of them have a tendency to be separatists and when they get their family alone in a rural area they turn tyrannical.


Now a days children are a bit smarter. You can home school them, you can deny them access to the neighbors, phones, or the internet, and you know what they will do?….they will pass notes in church, Walmart, grocery stores, and parking lots. These scumbags get caught.

What is it about this religion that is so harmful and so evil? Well when you get someone to believe that God is control of everything and everyone, once you deny free-will, it becomes tyrannical. Just like it would in a communist country like the elect in Nazism. Predestinationists are quick to give you scriptures to back up their beliefs, the wolf in sheep’s clothing has a scripture for you, don’t be surprised! Be sure to know that David Koresh of the Branch Davidians and Jim Jones of the Jamestown group the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Heaven’s Gate group had a scripture for them. The devil knows the Bible too.

I have seen the predestinationists destroy lives, families, and cause suicides, and of course prison time.

How is that?
Well if a family loses a father…whether it be for illness or accident. That means God predestined it.


Same thing if a family loses a mother…whether it be for illness or accident. That means God predestined it.

If a mother and father loses a child….whether it be for illness or accident. That means God predestined it.


If the house catches on fire and the family is standing in the front yard in their pajamas and that is all that is left, God made that happen.

If they lose their jobs and lose their homes and are living in poverty. That means God predestined it.

These people can start to think that God hates them. They start blaming themselves and each other. It can cause them to lose faith. It can break up marriages and families and lead to suicides. So beside the sacrilege of portraying God as a demonic puppet master and besides its design to make someone feel edified as the “elect.” There is no upside to this religion. Then those that are duped into this religion have to stand before Christ and explain that they believe that God denied mankind free-will and they believe He is a hideous puppet master monster. Good luck with that!
 
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kcnalp

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Jesus called people "dogs," "swine," "whitewashed tombs," and "vipers"...

And Jesus is always right!

I guess if He were more Christian about it He should have called them "Brethren" and "Good Jews." Weigh that with being called a Fatalist, a Calvinist, or a Gnostic... which is quite mild in my opinion!

Jesus Christian? Jesus is God of Israel and Christians.
 

Candidus

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Since God's knowledge is "infinite" I will trust in Him.

It isn't so "infinite" in the passage that He says He is not!

Need more examples?

Ezekiel 12:3 New King James Version (NKJV)

“Therefore, son of man, prepare your belongings for captivity, and go into captivity by day in their sight. You shall go from your place into captivity to another place in their sight. It may be that they will consider, though they are a rebellious house."

God's "infinite" knowledge does not know? Or does God lie when He suggests a contingency or alternate outcome?
 

Candidus

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And Jesus is always right!



Jesus Christian? Jesus is God of Israel and Christians.

And if He were posting here, you would have implied that He was a hypocrite and unchristian.
 

Tong2020

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It is a great verse, yet looking at what it was in response to, I do not like what you are inferring:

In what way does an adult "receive the kingdom of God as a little child?" What was Jesus saying?

Jesus in no way was saying that "little children" were sin-free or fit for heaven by some merit of "natural innocence," for He makes it a condition of receiving the kingdom of God as a little child. If what Jesus is declaring is "sin-free innocence," then no adult can ever enter the kingdom of God! For the requirement/condition of receiving it would to be already "as" the little children He is speaking of.

Does the Bible actually teach that if you want to "receive" the kingdom of God or enter into it, that you have to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and be sinless and innocently pure as Adam before the Fall BEFORE you can come to Christ to receive it? Nonsense!

Or could Jesus be speaking of their childlike faith, trust and dependence as opposed to adults skepticism, arrogance and unbelief?

I think @Josho was only pointing by that, more than that whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter the kingdom of God, that the kingdom of God belongs to them little children.

You asked "Does the Bible actually teach that if you want to "receive" the kingdom of God or enter into it, that you have to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and be sinless and innocently pure as Adam before the Fall BEFORE you can come to Christ to receive it? Nonsense!"

Consider what Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3, you must be born again. The new birth.

Tong
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