Saved Or Predestined ???

Tong2020 · May 5, 2020

Candidus said:
Genesis 18:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)

"And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Didn't God know? God heard an outcry, and He had to go down to validate its legitimacy? Or is He just lying here?

Of course God knew. There could be no question about that.

God chose to reveal His intention to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah to Abraham. And that obviously have everything to do with His plans for Abraham. So, it's not that He had to go down and validate or that He lies. It was obviously to purposely reveal Himself to Abraham in such manner.

Tong
R0102

Tong2020 · May 5, 2020

Renniks said:
Basically, yes, because this predestining is only effective for those who are in Christ.

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us.

These blessings and promises only apply to those who are in him.

The question:

Do you say that God's predestination of you now can be undone (if not mean differently), depending on you? So that, what God had fixed to happen concerning you, you can change and undo anytime you like, when you break relationship with God? That currently you are a child of God and is predestined, and if you break relationship with God and be a child of God no longer, that predestination will be undone or lose its meaning, and again if you go back in relationship with God and be a child of God again, that predestination will be effective again or will get its meaning back?

Answer: Basically, YES.

So, it's like saying that you have the power or are able to undo what the omnipotent God, your omnipotent God even, had predestined. How can you hold on such a position? Is it because you believe that your "free will" somehow keep hold of God, or that your "free will" somehow makes you sort of like an untouchable to God?

I think I rest my case at this point.

Tong
R0103

Paul Christensen · May 5, 2020

Tong2020 said:
The question:

What is the point of God choosing you for salvation, when your believing Him is certain to happen even without His intervention? Is God afraid that it will come to pass that you had not actually changed your mind and so not believe? Of course not, right? What future God had seen concerning you, that will not change, right? So, I hope you get the point of my question and tell me your answer.

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

The question:

what is the purpose of God having to predestine you?

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

The question:

Does it mean that God saw your future beyond the point of your believing that you will not conform yourself to the image of His Son so that there is need to predestine that upon you?

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

The question:

And if so, then would that not mean that God tampered with the future, at least the future of all those whom He saw in their future will believe in Him?

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

The question:

That He changed the future of them from the time in each of their lives when they believed in Him? Is that what you believe? If so, can that be found in scriptures?

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

Now let me go to what you said.

You said "God has foreknowledge because He exists out of time.". Agreed. And God had foreknowledge because He is the omniscient God.

You said "He gave man free will". Yes He did.

You said "He knows what man is going to do - whether to receive Christ or not." Yes He does, for besides being their creator, He is omniscient.

You said "He doesn't influence their choice even though He knows what it is going to be.". Fairly simple, really, please cite scriptures.

You said "He elects those whom He knows are going to receive Christ." Fairly simple, really, please cite scriptures.

You said "Once they receive Christ as their Saviour and Lord, He then predetermines that they be conformed to the image of Christ.". Fairly simple, really, please cite scriptures.

Tong
R0101

If you use Google with the key words, you will find the supporting Scriptures, like I do when I want to locate an appropriate Scripture.

Tong2020 · May 5, 2020

Renniks said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Now one more point, the sheep, when the gospel is preached to them, it does not mean that they automatically and instantly believe. Some might at the instant time of preaching, but not the same for all the sheep.

Click to expand...

No, you can't wiggle out of it that way. If Jesus saying to these Jews that they are not his sheep means they cannot become sheep, then anyone within the hearing of his voice at that time had to have been born destined to damnation. There's no other possibility in your scenario.

Well, you can say that if you like. Either me or you could not tell with absolute certainty if any of them later believe or did not. And I only had explained my position, and you have not.

If they were among those who were hardened by God, we also don't know. But if they were, then none of them could be one of those who believed. So it's all but speculation and presumptions and guessing. Though, in all likelihood, as far as is told about them by scriptures, they are not sheep.

You've been silent about the parable of the wheat and the tares. Have you read it yet?

Tong
R0104

Anthony D'Arienzo · May 5, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
Please. do show me how I twisted it.

Otherwise, You have an unproven accusation.

Jesus shows you in vs.37.....All the Father gives shall come, no more,no less.

Anthony D'Arienzo · May 5, 2020

Josho said:
@Preacher4Truth

Mark 10:13-16

Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. "Assuredly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.

Look at mt.18:6

Anthony D'Arienzo · May 5, 2020

Josho said:
Ah here you go in the

Luke 18:15-16
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God"

Mt18:6

John Caldwell · May 5, 2020

Pianoworldstage said:
Hi

Are we chosen to be saved? Does God pre-select us according to his will?
Is salvation only for the elect?

I have faith, i believe, I've confessed and repented and accepted Christ as lord and saviour, but am i saved?

If not predestined and apart of his elect? Then all hope faith and trust in Christ is in vain, and comes to nothing.

Ephesians 4:5.
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Ephesians 11.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Yes, we are chosen to be saved. Scripture says those who are saved are chosen form the foundation of the earth. No, salvation is not only "for" the elect, but those who are saved are added to the elect (Scripture does not speak of the elect as if one not yet saved is elected to salvation, but as those who are saved are "among the elect" or a part of that group).

All positions would hold that if you have faith, have confessed and repented and accept Christ as Lord and Savior then you are saved (and are among the elect).

Renniks · May 5, 2020

Tong2020 said:
That is the preordained plan of the Sovereign God Renniks. Do you believe that? Do you accept Him?

You don't understand the implications of your theology, so let me enlighten you. If some are irresistibly saved and some are passed by, that is the preordained plan. So, if they became wicked, it was God's doing, not thier doing. So, what you have then, is God ordaining thier rebellion, then killing them off because of what he caused. Do a little study on determinism, because that's what you are promoting.
God says he regretted making them, because of thier wickedness. This statement can not make sense in your system.

Renniks · May 5, 2020

Tong2020 said:
There can be no other scenario Renniks, except that all that ever happens and come to pass, are what God had in His plan, had preordained to happen, allowed and sustained as to happen according to the laws and decrees that He had set out to govern all of that He will create. For there is none that is outside of God before creation. There could be none that could exist and happen if not what is within what was created by Him and ordained by Him to happen or allowed to happen. There is no random event that happens outside of what God had made. And as it is God who sustains and holds all creation together as to exist as they exist from the time they were created, existing within the ordained and designed processes of change they are ordained and allowed to go through time during their existence, all living and moving in accordance to and within their given boundaries and freedom, without contradiction and conflict with one another, God must inevitably be in control of them all, else we could not even imagine what will be the result of that and how that will be.

You said "Even I can know what I'm going to do once I plan to do it." Do you? You only think you do or had convinced yourself that you do. For only God can, for only God is omniscient and the absolute yes and no and is immutable.

You said "If God already ordained all that was to happen, seeing the future doesn't require omniscience." Seeing the future does not require omniscience because seeing the future is an aspect of God's omniscience as seeing the past is an aspect of His omniscience as well.

You said "If God decrees everything, that makes him the author of evil, which would not make him the God of scripture." I have to admit, this is truly a very very difficult subject for us humans in that this is not even about the already very difficult and complicated subject of origins or beginnings, but is about the subject of that which is without origin or beginning nor end ~ God, the infinite, the perfect, the eternal, the spiritual, the sovereign, the holy, the good, the infallible, the omniscient, the omnipotent, the omnipresent, the immutable, the creator, etc. As a comment on that very delicate and complex subject, here's one that God had decreed involving man, Israel in particular, and what Paul have to say about that:

Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Is that evil? So, even before we can really start talking about your statement there, this simple question must first be answered. Also, is that included in the "evil" in your statement?

Tong
R0100

You just quoted a verse that contradicts your claims. Notice that Paul says God did this ( only because of thier initial disobedience) so that he could have mercy on all and yet you claim he only chooses to reveal himself to some.
Yes there's a mystery about how God interacts with mankind. He never fully explains it in scripture. But the mystery is not about what God desires. He always desires the restoration of all things and people.
Jesus said he came to bind up the broken hearted and set the captives free. No limits to who those captives are, or which he desires to free.

Renniks · May 5, 2020

Tong2020 said:
So, it's like saying that you have the power or are able to undo what the omnipotent God, your omnipotent God even, had predestined. How can you hold on such a position? Is it because you believe that your "free will" somehow keep hold of God, or that your "free will" somehow makes you sort of like an untouchable to God?

You misunderstand how God works. God gave us freewill.

"God is good toward all who accept His goodness. And for those who reject His goodness, there’s nothing that even the Almighty God can do if He’s going to allow man his free will—and I believe in free will. Free will was given as a gift of God—He’s given us a little provisional sovereignty out of His absolute sovereignty. He has said, “I’ll allow you, within a little framework, to be your own boss and to choose to go to heaven or to hell.” If a man will not take God’s goodness, then he must have God’s severity toward all who continue in moral revolt against the throne of God and in rebellion against the virtuous laws of God." ( AW Tozer)

Renniks · May 5, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Well, you can say that if you like. Either me or you could not tell with absolute certainty if any of them later believe or did not. And I only had explained my position, and you have not.

If they were among those who were hardened by God, we also don't know. But if they were, then none of them could be one of those who believed. So it's all but speculation and presumptions and guessing. Though, in all likelihood, as far as is told about them by scriptures, they are not sheep.

You've been silent about the parable of the wheat and the tares. Have you read it yet?

Tong
R0104

I've read the entire Bible, multiple times. So, you have changed your position on his sheep and those who can become sheep? You don't seem so sure that Jesus was saying what you claimed he said.

Candidus · May 5, 2020

Tong2020 said:
The question:

Do you say that God's predestination of you now can be undone (if not mean differently), depending on you? So that, what God had fixed to happen concerning you, you can change and undo anytime you like, when you break relationship with God? That currently you are a child of God and is predestined, and if you break relationship with God and be a child of God no longer, that predestination will be undone or lose its meaning, and again if you go back in relationship with God and be a child of God again, that predestination will be effective again or will get its meaning back?

Answer: Basically, YES.

So, it's like saying that you have the power or are able to undo what the omnipotent God, your omnipotent God even, had predestined. How can you hold on such a position? Is it because you believe that your "free will" somehow keep hold of God, or that your "free will" somehow makes you sort of like an untouchable to God?

I think I rest my case at this point.

Tong
R0103

Another "I don't care what the Bible has to say; I have a theory" answer!

When one creates a circular philosophy and believes that they have it all figured out, they will ignore anything in the Bible that might cause their tower of presumption to come crashing down. It is a form of unbelief that appeals to assumptions and circular reasoning instead of Scripture.

Many refuse to accept what God says, and force their assumptive definitions on God and others. When Scriptural evidence questions their precious assumptions, the automatic response is to disbelieve it, and demand that God can only work in their circular world.

You believe that you have proven you have rested your case and point; what I see is someone who refuses to peer over the wall of the presumption that they have built. I understand... if things are not as you say, and even one of your beliefs are not precisely what you say, then the whole House of Philosophical Cards come tumbling down. I understand; it would be personally crushing to break your circular reasoning for the sake of truth. To make an adjustment is unthinkable, for it might cause you to have to start building again from the ground floor.

Scripture interprets Scripture. We can:

A. Grab hold of our definitions and ignore the vast revelation that defies our definition in order to rescue the philosophical system we have built.
B. Change our definitions to match what God has said and revealed in Scripture, and seek a Biblical Theology.

Eternally Grateful · May 5, 2020

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
Jesus shows you in vs.37.....All the Father gives shall come, no more,no less.

Ah, So we just ignore the rest of the passage.

ok. If you say so.

These one verse doctrines people make up are a major problem.

Eternally Grateful · May 5, 2020

Renniks said:
You don't understand the implications of your theology, so let me enlighten you. If some are irresistibly saved and some are passed by, that is the preordained plan. So, if they became wicked, it was God's doing, not thier doing. So, what you have then, is God ordaining thier rebellion, then killing them off because of what he caused. Do a little study on determinism, because that's what you are promoting.
God says he regretted making them, because of thier wickedness. This statement can not make sense in your system.

This double predestination doctrine in my view Causes God to have some serious character flaws. And takes away from his claim to be a God full of mercy and grace

Tong2020 · May 5, 2020

Paul Christensen said:
If you use Google with the key words, you will find the supporting Scriptures, like I do when I want to locate an appropriate Scripture.

Well, if you didn't want to take the opportunity to prove to this board the truth of what you said, promote, and believe there which you wrote in your post, so be it with you then.

Though I did Google, but did not find the supporting scriptures that you say are there.

Tong
R0105

Anthony D'Arienzo · May 5, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
Ah, So we just ignore the rest of the passage.

ok. If you say so.

These one verse doctrines people make up are a major problem.

The whole Chapter centers on vs 37-44

Eternally Grateful · May 5, 2020

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
The whole Chapter centers on vs 37-44

lol. The chapter is broken into a few parts. The part we are talking about is the part where jesus tells people to seek or work for the food which endures to eternal life. which He will give them.

it has one message

1. The food which endures forever.
2. The bread of life, given from God (spiritual manna)
3. Te flesh and blood. Which he calls for us to EAT.

All of which is speaking of the words which Jesus came to speak, which he speaks through the spirit. These are the words of eternal life, which Peter admitted to Christ he had when Jesus asked them if they wanted to leave.

The few verses you want to pull out are not the main idea. Of this, you are mistaken

kcnalp · May 5, 2020

Jesus said MOST humans are going to burn in Hell fire forever and ever. Of course most humans don't believe Him.

Anthony D'Arienzo · May 5, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
lol. The chapter is broken into a few parts. The part we are talking about is the part where jesus tells people to seek or work for the food which endures to eternal life. which He will give them.

it has one message

1. The food which endures forever.
2. The bread of life, given from God (spiritual manna)
3. Te flesh and blood. Which he calls for us to EAT.

All of which is speaking of the words which Jesus came to speak, which he speaks through the spirit. These are the words of eternal life, which Peter admitted to Christ he had when Jesus asked them if they wanted to leave.

The few verses you want to pull out are not the main idea. Of this, you are mistaken

Hello EG,
I do understand what you are saying and partially agree.
Jesus pointing back to the bread from heaven in the first Exodus, declared Himself to be the True and Living bread here in the second and True Exodus.
They are confused, so the explanation offered in Jn6:37-44 is the Explanation of the Servant of the Lord coming to accomplish redemption on behalf of His Covenant people, both Jew and Gentile
See Isa49:1-8

Saved Or Predestined ???

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