The Time Of Jacob's Trouble?

SwampFox said:

Well, I go back to Ezekiel 37 with the prophecy of the dry bones and the two sticks.We're familiar with the obvious symbolism here, but these bones are manifestations of a people who are deaf and dumb to the Word of God. God uses his prophet (Ezekiel) to wake them up. Looking at this from a perspective of Jewish believers, there is a problem. The fundamental structure of the body is there, albeit scattered. These bones come together just like the Church comes together to form a body. Just like THE Church in fact. The structure is there, it's just the woeful state of the body of Christ is dry. The result of a famine, for God's Word that will unfurl in the latter days (Amos 8:11), leaving a society spiritually dead.

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Hello SwampFox, what an interesting event that took place with Ezekiel, to say the least. The spiritual meaning you brought was interesting. I read a little further down to verse 11 and God says they are the Whole house of Israel, Judah and Benjamin included. In verse 12 The Lord says he is bringing them into the Land of Israel upon raising them up out of their graves, by doing this (verse 13) God says "THEN THEY WILL KNOW HE IS THE LORD". This is the resurrection spoken of by Paul in I Thess 4:16 , that happens at Christ's coming is when it will take place. All the tribes will be settled in their own land, the promised inheritance given to them in Gen 49. This is when the 1000 yr reign will start up (Rev 20:7) and God puts his Spirit into them all who are raised just as it is spoken in this verse 14 of Ezekiel. Then the prophesy of the two sticks coming together,Judah and Israel, which will be the first time since the House of Judah and the House of Israel were separated by God where (I Kings 12:17-19) Jeroboam was made King over Israel and King Rehoboam to the house of David and Benjamin, will take place at the resurrection, God will heal these tribes that they will dwell forever under Christ. Ezekiel 37:19-20 is the prophecy of this promise from God to do bring these two sticks back together, when the resurrection of the dead takes place at Christ's coming. This is a wonderful study and it has so much that is promised and it shows the power of God to bring up the dead and put life in them again, which was the promise to these chosen by God. Soon this will happen, for the dead in Christ will come with the Lord as Paul states this in I Thess 4:16.All the books of the bible flow together in perfect truth speaking of the great Day of the Lord and the Dead being resurrected, as Ezekiel was given this future prophecy that is soon to be fulfilled at Christ's coming. This also matches up with John 5:28-29 (all in the graves will rise at the voice of God, some to life, some to condemnation at the Lord's coming)God has the power to bring all the bones up in Jerusalem, though they may be scattered across the world. Since the Lord is giving the promised land to the tribes forever, never to be removed again, it seems only natural, God would have them all rise up there as the Lord says in verse 12 he is going to open the graves and bring them up from there into the land of Israel. How awesome for our Lord to give this prophecy of what is to come at his coming to gather all of his people. Thanks Vickie

TallMan;70916]When is/was it?Jeremiah 30 first mentions it and it seems to be referring to the time of the Jews in captivity in Babylon before they returned to the promised land."v3: the days come said:

the time of Jacob's trouble[/b]; but he shall be saved out of it.(Jacob wrestled the angel seeking God's promise and was persuaded to do things God's way, unbelieving Jews & Israelites will not be saved)8: For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (a prophecy of Jesus, "Son of David")10: Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. (detailed in Nehemiah)11: For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. 12: For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. (they are natural man, with a heart of stone, they need new testament salvation)13: There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.14: All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.15: Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.16: Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. (detailed in the later chapters of Jeremiah)17: For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. (the enemies would first see them taken into captivity because of their idolatry against The Lord, then instead of fearing The Lord they would continue in their idoltry, then see God's mercy on the penetant remnant of His people)But the above also refers to Israel as distinct from Judah (vv3, 4, 10) and the house of Israel did not return to the promised land at that time (except a few individuals).So, is there a future fulfilment for true Israel (the anglo-saxon people)?Daniel 12:1 says:-"at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."Daniel 11:40 refers to this time as "the time of the end". This is "the last days", the gospel era from pentecost onwards, but the extreme trouble seems to be referring to the end of this age, Armageddon when Jesus returns and the faithful (those written in the book) are raised up."He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" (Rev.3:5)The intervening verses of Daniel refer to the kings of the north and south and various middle-east nations and seems to tie-in with Ezekiel 38-39.Any thoughts / comments?

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Hi TallMan,I quote the prophet Hosea here:Hosea 1:10-11 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great [shall be] the day of Jezreel."---------------I believe this is what we need to look at when we decide where we are at during the "end times" and the "Time of Jacob's Trouble".Israel and Judah have been gathered already in the United States of America and have "appointed themselves one head". You could say that the "head" is "Jesus Christ". Why? Because according to James, Chapter 1, ALL Twelve Tribes were accounted for by then and had been converted to Christianity.When we pair that with Revelation, Chapter 12, where "the woman (Israel) flees into the wilderness" and there "she keeps the testimony of Jesus Christ and the commandments of God" , we can now see where we are at in relation to the "end times" and how close we are to the "close of this age".AND, regarding "Mystery Babylon" in the book of Revelation, are we not "under another kind of Babylonian captivity", where we are asked to "come out of her my people and be not partakers of her plagues."?I'd say the "end of Jacob's Trouble" is upon us. We are awaiting the "Return of the King", our Messiah and "deliverer" just as the Israelites awaited one in Egypt.Coincidentally, we've been in America almost 400 years, just as the Israelites were in Egypt over 400 years.And now we have a new (pharaoh) leader, "one that does not know Joseph" (or one that has forgotten the Founding Fathers)I see a great parallel here.We are close to the end now. We've been in the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" for over 2,000 years now. Now, we await what Jesus told us about in the parables of Matthew, Chapter 13. "The TARES are to be plucked and bundled first". "Then I shall gather my wheat into the barn."The wicked are about to be pulled out from the kingdom. I await this day with great anticipation.Blessings,Kim

Dan 12:1-4
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
(KJV)

There's the time of Jacob's trouble for the end of this world. It's linked with the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus mentioned in Matt.24. That time of the Archangel Michael standing up is linked with the he Apostle Paul said withholds until he is taken out of the way (2 Thess.2). That's about the war in Heaven between Michael and his angels and the devil and his angels (Rev.12). The Rev.12:6 through 17 Scripture is actually for the very end. It is not about history. The idea of Israel going into the wilderness is an old idea, and it does sound plausible concerning the little known history of the ten tribes. But it's not what Rev.12 is about.

Rev.12:6-17 is about a time just prior to Satan's casting out of the heavenly for the very end of this world, then his casting out for the tribulation, and then his persecution upon God's elect that will make a stand during the tribulation, i.e., those who follow God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. One of the events of the seven seals our Lord Jesus gave is about His elect giving a Testimony for Him during the tribulation, being delivered up to councils and the synagogues of Satan.

Well, vet, I will have to disagree with you on Rev 12. The war mentioned there happened at the end of the first earth age.

Paul said:

Well, vet, I will have to disagree with you on Rev 12. The war mentioned there happened at the end of the first earth age.

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That's OK brother, I realize many interpret that casting out as Satan's rebellion of old. But a more thorough look at the Scripture, especially in relation to the seven seals, trumpets, and vials, and timing given in the Book of Daniel, and our Lord's Olivet discourse, a lot more is revealed.

The Rev.12:1-5 verses are actually a short summary of past events, and some still future events, like Christ's future thousand years reign with a rod of iron. Within Rev.12:3-4 is given the time of Satan's original rebellion of old. Along with that timing is given a description of a beast system that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns (the Rev.13:1 beast has ten crowns in contrast). At the end of verse 5 is where that summary ends.

Rev 12:6-17
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This period of 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years, or a time, times and a half, or 42 months, is associated with the end of this world per the Books of Daniel and Revelation. There is no instruction here to treat these 1260 days in a day=year symbology like what was given in Ezekiel. Daniel 9:27 mentions a final 7 year period ("one week") that is parted in the middle, which is two 1260 day periods. Per Rev.11, God's two witnesses at the end of this word are given to prophesy for a period of 1260 days, which at the end of it the 7th trumpet sounds Christ's coming. Later here in Rev.12:14, another period equaling 1260 days is mentioned involving the symbolic 'woman' again.

It's what happens here in-between those two 1260 day periods that we are especially to note. It coincides with events to occur at the middle of the week of Daniel 9.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

In Satan's original rebellion against God, we're told back at verses 3-4 that he drew one third of the stars (angels) into rebellion with him. In the Book of Job we're shown those "sons of God" appearing before God's Throne, Satan appearing before God's Throne with them, and that timing was after Satan's original fall. They had to be able to enter Heaven to do that. So what does this "neither was their place found any more in heaven" mean?

One could... simply isolate that verse from the rest of the Rev.12 Scripture here, and interpret it to mean Satan being cast away from God's Presence when he first rebelled, to the earth, with the idea of the 'pit'. But where is that 'pit' of hell? What dimension is it in? It's in the heavenly dimension. Some believe the abode of the wicked called hell is inside the earth. God's Word only declares two different dimensions of existence, this earthy one we are in, and the heavenly one where He is. So is the abode called hell in the earth, which would mean in our earthly dimension? No. The abode of hell also is in that heavenly dimension, but in a place of separation away from God's Presence. Our Lord Jesus hinted at that separation with the story of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16. Also, only a portion of Satan's angels are locked in chains for what they did in Genesis 6, awaiting God's judgment (Book of Enoch, Ethiopic version, gives more on that).

That "neither was their place found any more in heaven" is about Satan and his angels being literally cast out of the heavenly dimension to our earthly dimension. It's about the idea of his literal appearance here on earth in the last days. The next verses that continue this subject reveal that's how we are to interpret this event.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

That "which deceiveth the whole world" phrase is a prophetic marker especially for the next Rev.13 chapter, about the "another beast" that is to work wonders on the earth "in the sight of men", decieving the whole world. It's an endtime tribulation marker.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

At that casting event, those in heaven will rejoice because Satan will at that point no longer stand as our accuser before God's Throne. In the Book of Job, which was after Satan's original casting out, he still stood before God's Throne as accuser. And our Lord Jesus had not yet come to die on the cross at Satan's original casting out. The fact that Satan stands as accuser in heaven against these "brethren" up to this point, and "the power of His Christ" is mentioned places this for after Christ's resurrection.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This prophecy is about Christ's elect that give a Testimony during the tribulation time; it's linked to the 5th seal event, an event Christ taught about the end of this world in His Olivet discourse.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

In our Lord's Olivet discourse, He mentioned that for the sake of His elect, the events of the tribulation would be shortened. In Rev.17:10 we're told a certain false king is to come and that he will "continue a short space". That's in relation to the 42 months the "dragon" is given to work at the end of this world per Rev.13:4-5, this same "dragon" our Lord Jesus has revealed here as Satan himself.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

There's a second reference to a 1260 day period.

Note here our Lord uses the titles of "serpent" and "dragon" interchangeably for Satan. When he sees he is cast out of the heavenly dimension, he will seek to especially persecute the symbolic 'woman' (God's Israel). Back in Rev.9 we were to note what it is that comes out of the locust army's mouth. This flood of waters coming out of the serpent's (Satan's) mouth is the same type of metaphor. It's put for lies that cause deception. That's what the stinging of Rev.9 is about, and is to last for "five months" (the shortened time of the tribulation). This same event here is related to that, for the idea of Satan's lies is being represented by waters of a flood like in Noah's day. Per Genesis, God sealed Noah and his family inside the ark, and the height of the flood waters lasted for a period of 150 days (Hebrew reckoning that equals five months).

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

The major event that will end this world with Christ's coming is when Satan will lead the nations upon Israel to try and destroy God's people. That's what Armageddon of Rev.16 represents.


Many connections there with endtime events after that Rev.12:5 verse.

veteran,

I still disagree with you. I am not sure if you have a Companion Bible or not, if you do, look at the structure.

The Rev 12:15 "flood' is not lies, although there are plenty of lies around. The flood is taxes, look those two words up in your Strong's, follow them back to their root, The word goes back to G5411.

I disagree with your version of 1260 and the shortening of time to five months. Noah's flood lasted for one year and ten days.

Paul said:

veteran,

I still disagree with you. I am not sure if you have a Companion Bible or not, if you do, look at the structure.

The Rev 12:15 "flood' is not lies, although there are plenty of lies around. The flood is taxes, look those two words up in your Strong's, follow them back to their root, The word goes back to G5411.

I disagree with your version of 1260 and the shortening of time to five months. Noah's flood lasted for one year and ten days.

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I'm using God's Word to interpret Rev.12 brother. The waters of a flood God used as a metaphor for the Assyrian and the king of Babylon in the Old Testament prophets (see Isaiah 8; and Isaiah 28; Isaiah 59:19; Jeremiah 46-47; Daniel 9:27; Dan.11:22; Amos 8:8). In the Daniel examples He used it to represent the vile person overtaking, conquering. Our Lord Jesus also used the example of the flood of Noah's day as to how conditions of deception would be in the last days leading up to His coming (Matt.24:38-42).


Gen 7:24
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
(KJV)

The "hundred and fifty days" of the waters of the flood in Noah's day was about the peak time the waters were upon the earth before they started receeding. Per Hebrew reckoning 150 days is equal to five months. In Rev.9, those not sealed by God's seal are allowed to be stung for "five months". Literal waters of a flood do not come out of one's 'mouth'. Words do. And when it comes out of the mouth of that old serpent, it means lies, for that's how he deceived Eve originally.

veteran said:

I'm using God's Word to interpret Rev.12 brother. The waters of a flood God used as a metaphor for the Assyrian and the king of Babylon in the Old Testament prophets (see Isaiah 8; and Isaiah 28; Isaiah 59:19; Jeremiah 46-47; Daniel 9:27; Dan.11:22; Amos 8:8). In the Daniel examples He used it to represent the vile person overtaking, conquering. Our Lord Jesus also used the example of the flood of Noah's day as to how conditions of deception would be in the last days leading up to His coming (Matt.24:38-42).


Gen 7:24
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
(KJV)

The "hundred and fifty days" of the waters of the flood in Noah's day was about the peak time the waters were upon the earth before they started receeding. Per Hebrew reckoning 150 days is equal to five months. In Rev.9, those not sealed by God's seal are allowed to be stung for "five months". Literal waters of a flood do not come out of one's 'mouth'. Words do. And when it comes out of the mouth of that old serpent, it means lies, for that's how he deceived Eve originally.

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Why are you stopping at the end of chapter 7. The flood continues in 8. If good old Noah gets out of his boat at 7:24, he will still drown.

Did I say anything about water? NO! The flood of the end times are taxes, not water, taxes! Seen any of those around!

Paul said:

veteran,

I still disagree with you. I am not sure if you have a Companion Bible or not, if you do, look at the structure.

The Rev 12:15 "flood' is not lies, although there are plenty of lies around. The flood is taxes, look those two words up in your Strong's, follow them back to their root, The word goes back to G5411.

I disagree with your version of 1260 and the shortening of time to five months. Noah's flood lasted for one year and ten days.

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Proverbs 18:4

The words of the mouth are deep waters,
but the fountain of wisdom is a rushing stream. (the translation I read has this as "the fountain of wisdom is as a flowing stream" .... and we are to be baptised in living ((or flowing)) water)


So, the Rev 12 flood from the dragon is "many of man's words which resemble Yah's wisdom"

more or less

Paul said:

veteran,

I still disagree with you. I am not sure if you have a Companion Bible or not, if you do, look at the structure.

The Rev 12:15 "flood' is not lies, although there are plenty of lies around. The flood is taxes, look those two words up in your Strong's, follow them back to their root, The word goes back to G5411.

I disagree with your version of 1260 and the shortening of time to five months. Noah's flood lasted for one year and ten days.

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The KJV words "waters" and "flood" in Rev.12:15-16 are Greek words for literal waters, hudor and potamos. They're being used in the same way as OT examples, as a metaphor of overflowing destruction by God's enemies. In the Rev.12 example, those come out of the dragon's mouth, which in the Greek the word for mouth also means a literal mouth. That's what makes it a metaphor pointing to lies that cause destruction from the serpent, lies that destroy, just like the idea Apostle Paul showed in 2 Cor.11 where he mentioned about the "another Jesus". It is also connected with Rev.9 about the stinging, since at the end of Rev.9 we're told the power of the locusts is in their mouths (meaning lies that cause deception).

I'm aware of the raiser of taxes entity in Dan.11, but it's not about him. It's about the vile person that comes after the raiser of taxes.

From the Aramaic scriptures the 12th chapter is simply an over view of the gospel from Satan's fall to Christ redemption with the great dragon waring after the seed of the women, which is the church.
It's very clear in this scriptures that the earth and sea were just the world. it mentions those who are in heaven and those who are on earth.

It's the easiest words to understand with Aramaic idioms aiding the understanding,

it is the past, present and future message of the gospel condensed


After reading the Aramaic translation the English translations makes much more sense.