To ministers and Christian teachers of the Word

Episkopos · May 4, 2020

Windmillcharge said:
I know the reality of being saved, of the reality of struggling with temptation, of the reality of sinning.
I know this on a daily bases.

The reality of being saved from what? The reality of sinning disproves the reality of being saved. Sins don't save you. And God doesn't save a person's sins to preserve them. We are saved FROM our sins...not IN our sins. So you have a very skewed and religious view of what you think salvation is all about. What you could say then is...I was taught that salvation was while I was still sinning...and as I continue to sin...I'm saved.

Windmillcharge said:
It is interesting that those who God has used greatly in the past and the present all acknowledge that they are the chief of sinners.
None proclaim that they do not sin.

Humble people tend to under-claim...and religious people tend to exaggerate. And we all come from a life of weakness and sin...UNTIL we are empowered by grace to walk in victory over sin. So we don't claim victory for ourselves..we see our weakness without Him. Victory is IN Jesus.

Windmillcharge said:
So how do you councel someone like me who knows the reality of being a sinner saved by grace.
Who like Paul can cry about the evil I don't want to do I do while the good I want to do I don't do.

Paul was speaking of his conversion or transformation process in Romans 7. So you are stuck in that process. There remains Romans 8 and the victory over sin for you to experience. The power of the Spirit over the power of the flesh.

bbyrd009 · May 4, 2020

Windmillcharge said:
Or put it another way, what are ordinary Christians to do, where should they go for teaching, fellowship etc?

You will not run out of towns before I appear
.

Windmillcharge said:
To measure a ministers Christian commitment, his spiritual sanctity. How would you do it?

see whether he asks questions or gives unqualified answers maybe

Windmillcharge · May 4, 2020

Episkopos said:
The reality of being saved from what? The reality of sinning disproves the reality of being saved. Sins don't save you. And God doesn't save a person's sins to preserve them. We are saved FROM our sins...not IN our sins. So you have a very skewed and religious view of what you think salvation is all about. What you could say then is...I was taught that salvation was while I was still sinning...and as I continue to sin...I'm saved.

Humble people tend to under-claim...and religious people tend to exaggerate. And we all come from a life of weakness and sin...UNTIL we are empowered by grace to walk in victory over sin. So we don't claim victory for ourselves..we see our weakness without Him. Victory is IN Jesus.

Paul was speaking of his conversion or transformation process in Romans 7. So you are stuck in that process. There remains Romans 8 and the victory over sin for you to experience. The power of the Spirit over the power of the flesh.

The language Paul used is the language of now, of current experience. Not the language of the past.

Windmillcharge · May 4, 2020

Episkopos said:
Humble people tend to under-claim...and religious people tend to exaggerate.

Interesting you should say that.
Is it true of you?

Do you as a religious person exaggerate your sinlessnes?

Are you humble enough to acknowledge before God that all you are is a sinner in need of his mercy and grace?

Episkopos · May 4, 2020

Windmillcharge said:
Interesting you should say that.
Is it true of you?

Do you as a religious person exaggerate your sinlessnes?

Are you humble enough to acknowledge before God that all you are is a sinner in need of his mercy and grace?

That is your pride speaking. I am more than a conqueror through Christ who strengthens me. In Christ we don't lose...we win.

Enter into Him...strive to enter in through the straight gate.

ALL have sinned. But sinning is not the only way.

marksman · May 4, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Over the past several years, certain ministries have published surveys stating that around 68% percent of men and over 50% of pastors in evangelical churches admit to consuming pornography on a regular basis. If these surveys are even close to being accurate, the biggest shock is that only 68% percent of those men partake of pornography, because if their pastors are unclean, those men are drinking from a fountain of uncleanness. An unclean minister is a fountain of uncleanness flowing into those who drink of their ministry.

The reason for this is because the western church is so insipid. If all you get is how to become rich and famous, or a homily about a verse the preacher likes, you are not going to see a need to be right with God.

When you have been fed the stuff of Leonard Ravenhill, Arthur Wallis and the revivalists like Charles Finney, Reece Howells, Jonathan Edwards, the Wesley brothers, Whitfield and various others of that time, you know you are in a different world and a different expression of Christianity.

In those days there was no entertainment. Just plain old fashion repent and be baptised.

CharismaticLady · May 4, 2020

Windmillcharge said:
I know the reality of being saved, of the reality of struggling with temptation, of the reality of sinning.
I know this on a daily bases.

It is interesting that those who God has used greatly in the past and the present all acknowledge that they are the chief of sinners.
None proclaim that they do not sin.

So how do you councel someone like me who knows the reality of being a sinner saved by grace.
Who like Paul can cry about the evil I don't want to do I do while the good I want to do I don't do.

He is Jesus the Christ. And the scriptures you are quoting have been twisted to have Paul contradicting himself. It is not your fault. That quoting scriptures out of context has been around for centuries.

1 Timothy 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Of all the apostles, Paul when he was called Saul actually persecuted Christians to the death. He still felt that shame, but had gratitude that Jesus made him dead to sin, as in Romans 6:2.

The other scripture is Romans 7 where Saul, before becoming Paul, was under the law of sin and death. But if you were to read further just a few verses to Romans 8:2 you would see that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death.

Therefore, don't try to be like Saul when he was a insolent sinner, but Paul who was filled with the grace of God, the power of the divine nature.

You see Windy, you want Jesus as Savior, but don't know Him as the Christ. You must know Christ to have Him as Savior.

Here is the Christ:
Daniel 9:24
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,

1 John 3:5-6
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

If you really want to be free of sin and being so easily tempted, read Psalms 51 over and over until it becomes your prayer. You already see yourself as a weak sinner, and that is half the battle. When you truly want to be empowered with God's grace, His power, to be able to truly live a life pleasing to God, He will give you His Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I pray you will also escape.

Nancy · May 4, 2020

marks said:
I think that there is much that appeals to the flesh on Christian forums, and until we increase in humility there is the tendency to click "submit" when we shouldn't.

A lot of "tit-for-tat", and one-up-manship, and the like. I think there are zillion ways pride rears its head.

I don't know about the blanket statement that we cannot declare God's word effectively while in sin, because that would mean very little ministry going on.

Is the question, If there is recent sin in my life, can God still use me to minister His Word to others?

Much love!

Hi Mark,
The first verse popped into my head concerning your post is:

"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice," Phil. 1:18

So yeah, I would say God can even work through a greedy sinful person to get His message through. Seems strange but, that's what I read in Phil.!

marks · May 4, 2020

Nancy said:
Hi Mark,
The first verse popped into my head concerning your post is:

"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice," Phil. 1:18

So yeah, I would say God can even work through a greedy sinful person to get His message through. Seems strange but, that's what I read in Phil.!

That doesn't seem strange to me at all.

The flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, so you cannot do the things you want. That's how we are, so that's who God uses.

Much love!

Nancy · May 4, 2020

marks said:
That doesn't seem strange to me at all.

The flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, so you cannot do the things you want. That's how we are, so that's who God uses.

Much love!

"He calls the unqualified, and qualifies the called"

Amen.

CharismaticLady · May 4, 2020

Windmillcharge said:
The language Paul used is the language of now, of current experience. Not the language of the past.

Just so you know, present personal tense is a teaching tool. That's all. Look at Romans 7:9. Here we see Paul saying "I" as if he was there before and after Moses received the law. So was Paul over 1300 years old? Jesus said in John 8:34-36 that those who sin are a slave to sin, and cannot go to heaven forever. Only a son can go to heaven. Jesus frees the children of God from their sin. You cannot be a sinner and a child of God. For some reason, likely the misinterpretation of 1 Timothy and Romans 7 and probably 1 John 1:8 as well, you believe Jesus saves you and leaves you powerless. Is His Spirit powerless? If you have the Holy Spirit inside you, He empowers you to be dead to sin, which if you have no power over temptation and sin daily, you just don't have. It is not too late. Repent. Read Psalms 51 like I showed you. Truly WANT to be holy and live holy. If you do, then ask Jesus to fill you with His Holy Spirit, without which you will stay weak and unsaved. Romans 8:9

farouk · May 4, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Just so you know, present personal tense is a teaching tool. That's all. Look at Romans 7:9. Here we see Paul saying "I" as if he was there before and after Moses received the law. So is Paul over 1300 years old? Jesus said in John 8:34-36 that those who sin are a slave to sin, and cannot go to heaven forever. Only a son can go to heaven. Jesus frees the children of God from their sin. You cannot be a sinner and a child of God. For some reason you believe Jesus saves you and leaves you powerless. Is His Spirit powerless? If you have the Holy Spirit inside you, He empowers you to be dead to sin, which if you have no power over temptation and sin daily, you just don't have. It is not too late. Repent. Read Psalms 51 like I showed you. Truly WANT to be holy and live holy. If you do, then ask Jesus to fill you with His Holy Spirit, without which you will stay weak and unsaved. Romans 8:9

Such a searching Psalm is No. 51...

Windmillcharge · May 5, 2020

Episkopos said:
That is your pride speaking. I am more than a conqueror through Christ who strengthens me. In Christ we don't lose...we win.

Enter into Him...strive to enter in through the straight gate.

ALL have sinned. But sinning is not the only way.

My pride, reads more like your pride.

Windmillcharge · May 5, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
He is Jesus the Christ. And the scriptures you are quoting have been twisted to have Paul contradicting himself. It is not your fault. That quoting scriptures out of context has been around for centuries.

1 Timothy 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Of all the apostles, Paul when he was called Saul actually persecuted Christians to the death. He still felt that shame, but had gratitude that Jesus made him dead to sin, as in Romans 6:2.

The other scripture is Romans 7 where Saul, before becoming Paul, was under the law of sin and death. But if you were to read further just a few verses to Romans 8:2 you would see that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death.

Therefore, don't try to be like Saul when he was a insolent sinner, but Paul who was filled with the grace of God, the power of the divine nature.

You see Windy, you want Jesus as Savior, but don't know Him as the Christ. You must know Christ to have Him as Savior.

Here is the Christ:
Daniel 9:24
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,

1 John 3:5-6
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

If you really want to be free of sin and being so easily tempted, read Psalms 51 over and over until it becomes your prayer. You already see yourself as a weak sinner, and that is half the battle. When you truly want to be empowered with God's grace, His power, to be able to truly live a life pleasing to God, He will give you His Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I pray you will also escape.

You mix two things what Jesus has done legally and spiritually with our physical condition.
Paul in Romans 7:25 clarifies it. He is saved through Jesus's but also see the duel nature of the Christian, a slave of Jesus, but also still a slave to sin.

You refuse to look at 1john1:9 and it's brutal statement that if we say we have no sin we are not Christs.

It is interesting that your counselling says That a Christian struggling with sin is probably not a Christian!
Have you ever counselled a Christian tormented by sin and temptation.
How is that sort of comment going to help someone trust in the only source of help they have, which is Jesus.

Rita · May 5, 2020

Windmillcharge said:
That does not answer my question. If you sin, are you still a a Christian?
If a minister sins is he still a minister?

If ministers etc are viewing porn is there preaching, service etc still valid?

Or put it another way, what are ordinary Christians to do, where should they go for teaching, fellowship etc?

How many of us sit in church and privately know we are battling things , so do we still receive , do we still feed from what is spoken to us.... ..... for me the issue is one of collective accountability, we have got so use to conveying an image of righteousness that we have forgotten how to be real and honest with one another, could that perhaps be because so many Christian automatically respond in such a judgmental way that their is no hope for being honest and open ..........any idea how hard it is to actually admit an addiction, of any kind. You get the looks, then you get the gossips, then you get the condemnations, then you get those jumping to conclusions about ‘ how and why ‘ ...........any addiction doesn’t just start for no reason, there needs to be emptiness and problem in the first place....and that is where healing begins, understanding why !
Rita x

John Caldwell · May 5, 2020

Rita said:
How many of us sit in church and privately know we are battling things , so do we still receive , do we still feed from what is spoken to us.... ..... for me the issue is one of collective accountability, we have got so use to conveying an image of righteousness that we have forgotten how to be real and honest with one another, could that perhaps be because so many Christian automatically respond in such a judgmental way that their is no hope for being honest and open ..........any idea how hard it is to actually admit an addiction, of any kind. You get the looks, then you get the gossips, then you get the condemnations, then you get those jumping to conclusions about ‘ how and why ‘ ...........any addiction doesn’t just start for no reason, there needs to be emptiness and problem in the first place....and that is where healing begins, understanding why !
Rita x

Amen!!! The idea that I get from Scripture about church is that the members are open with one another, uplifting one another, supporting one another, etc. This cannot happen if church members are mere attendees there to get a sense of worship and listen to a message, but never act beyond the individual. Too often what should be open is hidden, and too often it is hidden because the one suffering knows what the church response would be. Perhaps a quick word and downcast glaze, perhaps "church discipline", but too often not encouragement and reconciliation.

Episkopos · May 5, 2020

Windmillcharge said:
My pride, reads more like your pride.

LOL You want me to be a sinner and I want you to have a shot at being a saint.

Which way is up and which way is down?

atpollard · May 5, 2020

Enoch111 said:
The remedy was rather simple. A prospective minister would need to be asked point blank if he had any addictions, particularly pornography. If he said "Yes" then the response would be "Goodbye".

So we have found a SECOND “unforgivable sin”.

Just out of curiosity, what makes this sin worse than so many others that the Bible lists?

Enoch111 · May 5, 2020

atpollard said:
So we have found a SECOND “unforgivable sin”.

That's not the issue. Meeting the qualifications of elders is the issue -- "blameless" is the first on the list.

Just out of curiosity, what makes this sin worse than so many others that the Bible lists?

No one said it was as far as I know.

CharismaticLady · May 5, 2020

Windmillcharge said:
You mix two things what Jesus has done legally and spiritually with our physical condition.
Paul in Romans 7:25 clarifies it. He is saved through Jesus's but also see the duel nature of the Christian, a slave of Jesus, but also still a slave to sin.

You refuse to look at 1john1:9 and it's brutal statement that if we say we have no sin we are not Christs.

It is interesting that your counselling says That a Christian struggling with sin is probably not a Christian!
Have you ever counselled a Christian tormented by sin and temptation.
How is that sort of comment going to help someone trust in the only source of help they have, which is Jesus.

Those in Jesus are NOT a slave to sin. Where did you get that falsehood? People are either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness. Romans 6. Jesus FREES us from sin, He doesn't leave us wallowing in the mire. John 8:34-36

If someone is struggling with sin, that is a sure sign they have never truly repented and received the powerful Holy Spirit, and without the Spirit of Christ indwelling them, they do not belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

1 John 1:8-9 are (8) those before Christ, and (9) what they must do to BECOME a Christian.

It is the same with Romans 7 and Romans 8 - before and after.

cc: @Nancy

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