Job 17

Heart2Soul said:

@Giuliano .....I edited my last post...but to continue on....so Job was rewarded for passing the test and received 100fold of what was taken...Hallelujah!

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Heart2Soul said:

I am apologize but I don't understand how you are applying this to God restoring to Job 100 fold of what was stolen.

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Heart2Soul said:

I am apologize but I don't understand how you are applying this to God restoring to Job 100 fold of what was stolen.

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VictoryinJesus said:

Hebrews 10:32-34But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; [33] Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. [34] For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Luke 18:29-30 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, [30] Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

“restoring to Job 100 fold of what was stolen.“ it is all through the word. Restoring what was stolen. Is it robbery though for that which is to be dissolved to be removed to reveal what remains?
Acts 8:32-35 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: [33] In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. [34] And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? [35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

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Enoch111 said:

It is entirely possible that Jesus was using illustrations from real life (e.g. the Good Samaritan). We know that the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus was factual, not merely parabolic. The Lord was lifting the veil from the afterlife and showing us what transpired in Hades before the resurrection of Christ. The word Hades was wrongly translated as "hell" in the KJV.

And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:23)

καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις ὁρᾷ τὸν Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ.

Those who teach the false doctrine of Soul Sleep insist that this is a parable because it totally destroys their misconception.

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quietthinker said:

I'm sorry Enoch...what you assert here is not backed by God's Word as I understand it. Rather, it is the position you hold that is destroyed by the revelation that Jesus used the story of Lazarus in Abrahams bosom to bring home the point 'if they believe not Moses and the Prophets they won't believe even if one rose from the dead'

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Enoch111 said:

While this is not directly connected to the OP, it needs a serious rebuttal.
1. "not backed by God's Word" -- actually recorded in Luke 16.
qt's reply....You misrepresent my intent.....that sets a slippery precedent. I'm surprised you would step to this.

2."...as I understand it..." -- while being misdirected by the Soul Sleep teachers.
qt's reply....An poor try to undermine my words.....Don't your understand that anything you say is also as you understand it???

3. 'if they believe not Moses and the Prophets they won't believe even if one rose from the dead' -- confirmation that this is an actual and factual account with the words of Abraham recorded.
qt's reply....You have added the words 'actual' and 'factual'....you won't find that in the scriptural record. It amounts to an incorrect assumption.


LESSONS FROM THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

1. AN ACTUAL ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
qt's reply....Your word 'actual' is an erroneous assumption and upon this assumption you build your whole case.... If your assumption was accurate you might be able to build a case that would stand but in this case your assumption has a foundation of sand....washed away with the first downpour.

2. LAZARUS IGNORED BY THE RICH MAN -- A REAL LIFE SCENARIO
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
qt's reply....Your statement 'A real life scenario' again an assumption.....but that's beside the point

3. A DESCRIPTION OF THE AFTERLIFE (EVERYONE AWAKE AND ALIVE)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [Note: if this were indeed a parable -- an illustrative story -- what exactly was being illustrated?]
qt's reply....Another assumption on the sate of the dead and not supported by anywhere else in scripture.
What is being illustrated is the impossibility of people hearing any warnings as stated by Jesus 'if they hear not Moses and the Prophets they won't believe even if one rose from the dead'.....that's conclusive. its the point of the story. It is not a treatise on the state of the dead.

4. HADES -- THE PLACE OF DEPARTED SPIRITS (RIGHTEOUS AND UNRIGHTEOUS)
23And in hell [HADES] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [Note: this was true until the resurrection of Christ. The righteous dead were taken to Heaven by Christ upon his ascension, and now they go directly to Heaven where all the OT saints reside]
qt's reply....This is the use of a popular known myth and as said in answer to point number 3, it is not a treatise on the state of the dead otherwise your logic would be saying those in heaven are watching and hearing those in hell....for how long? eternity? hardly the description given in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 and in Solomons, David's, Job's or Daniel's descriptions of the state of the dead.


5. NO SECOND CHANCES AFTER DEATH
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [Note: an actual dialogue in Hades between the Rich Man and Abraham]
qt's reply....Yes, no second chance but your note of it being an actual dialogue is again an assumption.


6. THE RIGHTEOUS COMFORTED, THE UNRIGHTEOUS TORMENTED IN HADES
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
qt's reply....Assumption...you have no support for this anywhere else in scripture.


7. HUGE CHASM BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS DEAD
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
qt's reply....Directly from a popular myth....cannot be supported by scripture elsewhere.

8. WISHFUL THINKING AND REGRETS IN HADES
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
qt's reply....again no scriptural support elsewhere in scripture for this scenario.


9. CONFIRMATION THAT THE UNRIGHTEOUS ARE IN TORMENT AS A PRELUDE TO HELL
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
qt's reply.....As above reply....

10. THE OLD TESTAMENT PRESENTS THE WAY OF SALVATION
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.[Note: this is exactly what Paul confirmed to Timothy -- And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. The Holy Scriptures = the Hebrew Tanakh = Moses and the Prophets]
qt's reply....They do have Moses and the Prophets the which to not subscribe to your interpretations on this subject.

11. THE MISTAKEN IDEA THAT MIRACLES WILL CONVINCE THE UNBELIEVING
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [Note: even though Christ performed a multitude of miracles, the Jews generally did not accept Him as their Messiah/King]
qt's reply....Trying to make this story walk on all fours so that it fits your understanding of the state of the dead is exegesis that the rest of scripture does not support.

12. THIS ALSO REFERS TO THE FACT THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST DID NOT BRING ISRAEL TO REPENTANCE
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
qt's reply....Don't miss the lesson of the whole story. I'll repeat it...If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Jesus focuses our attention by saying 'be careful how you hear' Luke 8:18....the 'how' has to do with interpretation/understanding.

As you can see, your points are built on unverifiable assumptions re the tenant of scripture on this matter, but please, if you can back these assumptions by presenting your interpretation of this story with scriptures in their context, particularly from Moses and the Prophets but not exclusively, I am interested.

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quietthinker said:

Enoch, the subject of the state of the dead has been repeated on these forums many times over which you no doubt have had access to.
Without doing it to death again I will put some brief inserts between your listed points..... more for the benefit of those reading because I know you are fixed in your position.

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VictoryinJesus said:

“LAZARUS IGNORED BY THE RICH MAN -- A REAL LIFE SCENARIO
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
qt's reply....Your statement 'A real life scenario' again an assumption.....but that's beside the point”

“And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table...”

Matthew 15:26-27 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. [27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Mark 7:27-28 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. [28] And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

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quietthinker said:

Enoch, the subject of the state of the dead has been repeated on these forums many times over which you no doubt have had access to.
Without doing it to death again I will put some brief inserts between your listed points..... more for the benefit of those reading because I know you are fixed in your position.

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Giuliano said:

Did Job's sacrifices work? No, all his children died.

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VictoryinJesus said:

Isaiah 47:7-11 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it. [8] Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: [9] But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. [10] For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. [11] Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

So much in Job: Job 5:11-16 To set up on high those that be low; that those which mourn (the loss of children)may be exalted to safety. [12] He disappointeth the devices of the crafty, so that their hands cannot perform their enterprise. [13] He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. [14] They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night. [15] But he saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth, and from the hand of the mighty. [16] So the poor hath hope, and iniquity stoppeth her mouth.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

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Giuliano said:

I find it interesting that God had that hedge around Job for so long. Job had lived with that fear, practically inviting Satan in; but only God knows when he's safe to let Satan loose so we can come to a better level. "In all things, give thanks."

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Enoch111 said:

Because he was not a friend, just an onlooker. And in the end he too assumed that Job was guilty rather than innocent. Job's friends were not real friends, in that they assumed his guilt rather than try to understand why a righteous man was being subjected to such enormous calamities. God said that Job's friends had not spoken of God what was right. Job was to offer sacrifices on their behalf and pray for them.

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stunnedbygrace said:

Wow WOH....I just now really saw that verse you quoted...he was mad at Job because: he justified himself...wow...

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Enoch111 said:

I believe you are referring to this: Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God. (Job 32:2).

However, when you take a closer look at what Elihu said, you will note that he was also misjudging Job, and if his wrath was kindled against Job, it was not righteous anger. He was upset that Job had said this: I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me.

But when we go back to the beginning, this is also what God had said regarding Job: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Indeed, in Ezekiel 14 there are only three righteous men listed and specifically mentioned by God -- Noah, Daniel, and Job -- and these would be the only ones to escape judgment in that context.

So in fact, Job had told his friends the truth about himself. But Elihu did not know what God had already said. So he indulged in false accusations against Job: For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

Elihu assumed that Job was subjected to his calamities because of sin, and when Job was overwhelmed with grief at all his losses and spoke out, Elihu accused him of rebellion. As we know from the rest of the book, these were all false accusations, and Elihu -- not even listed as a friend -- was simply being a smarta**.

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Nancy said:

"Job was to offer sacrifices on their behalf and pray for them."

Now, that had to be tough for him to do after they kicked him while he was down. Reminds me of Jesus words on the cross when forgiving those who were killing Him.

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