THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST

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Doug

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Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Jesus, after his resurrection, spoke unto the twelve apostles of the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3). The aspect of the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of was the kingdom of the Davidic covenant; the kingdom promised Israel to reign with Christ on earth (1 Chronicles 17:12 Daniel 7:18 Luke 1:32 Revelation 5:10). The apostles wanted to know if Jesus was about to restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6).

Jesus commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, the Holy Ghost, to empower them for the tribulation period (Luke 24:49 Acts 1:5).

2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The apostles, filled with the Holy Ghost, began to speak in tongues.

2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Speaking in tongues, as can clearly be seen in verse 6, is speaking in the hearers language. Also in verses 8 and 11, tongues involves the ability given the apostles to speak and be heard in a specific language, not of their own. It was a sign given them to substantiate their ministry.

Peter, standing with the eleven, spoke in the following verse:

2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Pentecost, and the filling of the Holy Ghost, was prophesied by Joel. This was a fulfillment of prophecy in Joel 2:28-32. Joel speaks to Israel about the day of the Lord (Joel 2:1). Joel speaks of turning to the Lord (Joel 2:12); that the Lord is in their midst (Joel 2:27). Peter was exhorting Israel in Acts 2:40 to save itself from this untoward generation and be spared the coming wrath. This prophecy was directed to Israel, and those present were for the most part Jews.

2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

In the above verses it should be noted that Peter was not addressing the newly formed church, the Body of Christ, but rather, Israel only. Peter preached Jesus as Christ, and his resurrection, the gospel of the Circumcision (Galatians 2:7). The resurrection of Jesus Christ would assure the fulfillment of the future promised kingdom on earth, in which, he was raised from the dead to sit on the throne of David. The Holy Spirit will cause Israel to keep his commandments, and reign and rule with him over the nations, to be a light of salvation to the Gentiles (Isaiah 60:3 Ezekiel 36:24-28 Revelation 20:4 Matthew 5:14).

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Peter, in the above verses, states that Jesus is both Lord and Christ. Jesus rose from the dead declaring that he is the Son of God (Romans 1:4).

In verse 38 below, Peter shows that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour of Israel, who alone can forgive the sins of the nation of Israel.

2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Peter is only offering the above promises of remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost to repentant Israel, and those Gentiles who would come to God thru Israel.

2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The believers were baptized according to the commandment of the Davidic covenant announced by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:2); the cleansing for the remission of sins; the recognition of the name,authority, and the identity of Jesus. Just like Peter in Acts 2:40 John warned Israel to flee the wrath to come (Matthew 3:7). The believers were added to them, the church of God and the kingdom to come, not the body of Christ.

2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

They sold all they had and provided to all according to the commandment to Israel by Jesus in Matthew 13:46 and Matthew 19:21.

2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

They were in one accord as well. The church here is not the body of Christ. The church here are the believers in Christ who were promised entrance into the kingdom on earth. The kingdom which is postponed and interrupted by our dispensation of Grace.
 
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Enoch111

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Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
The Church did start at Pentecost, so you should have included the last verse in that chapter: And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved.

You continue to twist and turn Scripture in spite of all the verses refuting your position. That indicates wilful blindness.

The Church includes BOTH redeemed Jews and Gentiles. It began with the Jews and Gentiles were added to the Church shortly thereafter. But instead of it becoming primarily a Jewish Church, it became primarily a Gentile Church.
 

Doug

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The Church did start at Pentecost, so you should have included the last verse in that chapter: And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved.

You continue to twist and turn Scripture in spite of all the verses refuting your position. That indicates wilful blindness.

The Church includes BOTH redeemed Jews and Gentiles. It began with the Jews and Gentiles were added to the Church shortly thereafter. But instead of it becoming primarily a Jewish Church, it became primarily a Gentile Church.
Acts 2:47 is speaking of the church of God, the Jews and Gentiles that believed the gospel of the kingdom, not the body of Christ which was not formed until Paul's conversion.
 

BreadOfLife

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Acts 2:47 is speaking of the church of God, the Jews and Gentiles that believed the gospel of the kingdom, not the body of Christ which was not formed until Paul's conversion.
Nonsense.
Saul (Paul) persecuted the already-established CHURCH of Christ:

Acts 8:3
As for Saul, he made havoc of the CHURCH, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

1 Cor. 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the CHURCH of God.

Phil. 3:5-6
circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the CHURCH; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The Church was NOT started by Paul.
 
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Mungo

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There is a case to be made that the Church started at the cross when blood and water flowed from Christ's side.

Pentecost was the "coming out" party!
 

Doug

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Nonsense.
Saul (Paul) persecuted the already-established CHURCH of Christ:

Acts 8:3
As for Saul, he made havoc of the CHURCH, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

1 Cor. 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the CHURCH of God.

Phil. 3:5-6
circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the CHURCH; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The Church was NOT started by Paul.
We are not at odds here....
Paul did not start the church
Paul did indeed persecute the church....the church he persecuted was not the body of Christ. You must rightly divide the Bible to understand it...the church Paul persecuted only believed in the name of Jesus, they believed he is Christ, the Son of God, and he was going to establish his kingdom on earth.
 

BreadOfLife

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We are not at odds here....
Paul did not start the church
Paul did indeed persecute the church....the church he persecuted was not the body of Christ. You must rightly divide the Bible to understand it...the church Paul persecuted only believed in the name of Jesus, they believed he is Christ, the Son of God, and he was going to establish his kingdom on earth.
The Church IS the Body of Christ.
The Body of Christ is the Church.

They are not 2 different entities.
Acts 9:4-5 makes this blindingly clear where Jesus equates his Body – the Church - with his very self:

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.


Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” - which is EXACTLY what Saul was doing.
Jesus chose to equate the Church with himself
 

Waiting on him

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The Church did start at Pentecost, so you should have included the last verse in that chapter: And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved.

You continue to twist and turn Scripture in spite of all the verses refuting your position. That indicates wilful blindness.

The Church includes BOTH redeemed Jews and Gentiles. It began with the Jews and Gentiles were added to the Church shortly thereafter. But instead of it becoming primarily a Jewish Church, it became primarily a Gentile Church.
I believe what Doug is seeing is the church we see today in many cases is not the church that was began at pentecost.
 

Doug

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The Church IS the Body of Christ.
The Body of Christ is the Church.

They are not 2 different entities.
Acts 9:4-5 makes this blindingly clear where Jesus equates his Body – the Church - with his very self:

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.


Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” - which is EXACTLY what Saul was doing.
Jesus chose to equate the Church with himself
Good insight bro...Jesus equated the church with himself.
Try to understand where I am coming from, I am not fighting you, I am trying to convey my understanding....the body of Christ as the church was only made known to Paul....before that there was a church, the church did not start with Paul (the church of God, before Paul, only believed Jesus is Christ, the Son of God) looking for the kingdom on earth....Paul persecuted this church.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Good insight bro...Jesus equated the church with himself.
Try to understand where I am coming from, I am not fighting you, I am trying to convey my understanding....the body of Christ as the church was only made known to Paul....before that there was a church, the church did not start with Paul (the church of God, before Paul, only believed Jesus is Christ, the Son of God) looking for the kingdom on earth....Paul persecuted this church.
That's absolutely false.

The church knew who Jesus was and recognized Him as GOD incarnate. I don't know why you think they didn't know who He was.
Just because Paul used the term, "Body of Christ" to describe the Church doesn't mean that "only Paul" considered it to BE the Body of Christ.
 

Doug

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That's absolutely false.

The church knew who Jesus was and recognized Him as GOD incarnate. I don't know why you think they didn't know who He was.
Just because Paul used the term, "Body of Christ" to describe the Church doesn't mean that "only Paul" considered it to BE the Body of Christ.

Israel rejected Jesus (John 1:11). The church of God believed the gospel of the kingdom, the promised kingdom on earth, and believed Jesus was Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31), Jesus warned those who did not (John 8:24 Mark 16:15-16).
You can not find anything of the body of Christ, in which there is neither Jew or Gentile, before Paul.
The church of God that believed the gospel of the kingdom is promised the kingdom on earth, the body of Christ is promised the heavenly places.
 

FHII

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the body of Christ as the church was only made known to Paul....before that there was a church, the church did not start with Paul (the church of God, before Paul, only believed Jesus is Christ, the Son of God) looking for the kingdom on earth.


I like most of what you said. Doing a word search confirms that Paul was the only one to use the phrase "body of Christ" to describe the Church. Still,. BOL is correct( as I see you agree) that Jesus equated the Church with himself in Acts 9. Even before that, in John14:20 Jesus I am in you, you are in me and we are in the Father. Furthermore, Paul explains (in example Gal 2:20 and Col 3:1) that when Christ died and resurrected we died and we're ressurected with him.

What I am getting to is that while the term may have started with Paul and in my opinion, fully explained by Paul, it didn't start with him. You said "made know" to Paul, which is partially true: He's the one that got the point and explained it. But it was around long before, and as I noted, talked about at least in an indirect manner by Jesus.

As for when the Church started.... No, I don't believe it started at Pentacost in Acts 2. It was a big moment and there are many stages of development, but I have to look at John chapter 1 as the start. Either when he called his first two disciples, or when John beheld him and said he was the one.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Israel rejected Jesus (John 1:11). The church of God believed the gospel of the kingdom, the promised kingdom on earth, and believed Jesus was Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31), Jesus warned those who did not (John 8:24 Mark 16:15-16).
You can not find anything of the body of Christ, in which there is neither Jew or Gentile, before Paul.
The church of God that believed the gospel of the kingdom is promised the kingdom on earth, the body of Christ is promised the heavenly places.
Get this through your head:
Paul refers to the Church as the "Body of Christ" because of his conversion experience.
Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.


Jesus DIDN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” This is precisely what Saul was doing.
Jesus chose to equate the Church with His very own body."

You say a LOT of wacky things on this forum - but this latest claim of yours is among the wackiest . . .
 

Doug

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I like most of what you said. Doing a word search confirms that Paul was the only one to use the phrase "body of Christ" to describe the Church. Still,. BOL is correct( as I see you agree) that Jesus equated the Church with himself in Acts 9. Even before that, in John14:20 Jesus I am in you, you are in me and we are in the Father. Furthermore, Paul explains (in example Gal 2:20 and Col 3:1) that when Christ died and resurrected we died and we're ressurected with him.

What I am getting to is that while the term may have started with Paul and in my opinion, fully explained by Paul, it didn't start with him. You said "made know" to Paul, which is partially true: He's the one that got the point and explained it. But it was around long before, and as I noted, talked about at least in an indirect manner by Jesus.

As for when the Church started.... No, I don't believe it started at Pentacost in Acts 2. It was a big moment and there are many stages of development, but I have to look at John chapter 1 as the start. Either when he called his first two disciples, or when John beheld him and said he was the one.

What I am getting to is that while the term may have started with Paul and in my opinion, fully explained by Paul, it didn't start with him. You said "made know" to Paul, which is partially true: He's the one that got the point and explained it. But it was around long before, and as I noted, talked about at least in an indirect manner by Jesus.

The body of Christ is not just another term for the church, it is a new entity, a new creature (Galatians 6:15), making of the Jew and Gentile believers one new man (Ephesians 2:15).
 
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farouk

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The church started at Pentecost, Acts 2. In Psalm 51.11, David prayed, 'Take not thy holy spirit from me.

This is something that born again members of the church - synonymously - do not need to pray; because at Pentecost the Spirit came to indwell.
 

Doug

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I like most of what you said. Doing a word search confirms that Paul was the only one to use the phrase "body of Christ" to describe the Church. Still,. BOL is correct( as I see you agree) that Jesus equated the Church with himself in Acts 9. Even before that, in John14:20 Jesus I am in you, you are in me and we are in the Father. Furthermore, Paul explains (in example Gal 2:20 and Col 3:1) that when Christ died and resurrected we died and we're ressurected with him.

What I am getting to is that while the term may have started with Paul and in my opinion, fully explained by Paul, it didn't start with him. You said "made know" to Paul, which is partially true: He's the one that got the point and explained it. But it was around long before, and as I noted, talked about at least in an indirect manner by Jesus.

As for when the Church started.... No, I don't believe it started at Pentacost in Acts 2. It was a big moment and there are many stages of development, but I have to look at John chapter 1 as the start. Either when he called his first two disciples, or when John beheld him and said he was the one.

As for when the Church started.... No, I don't believe it started at Pentacost in Acts 2. It was a big moment and there are many stages of development, but I have to look at John chapter 1 as the start. Either when he called his first two disciples, or when John beheld him and said he was the one.

In John chapter 1 Jesus is identified as the lamb that would take away the sins of Israel. This was the beginning of the church of God, but it is not the body of Christ.
The body of Christ has the promise in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6), revealed was one new man where there is neither Jew or Gentile.
The church of God still had separation of Jew and Gentile, and was promised the earthly kingdom.
 

farouk

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The church of God still had separation of Jew and Gentile, and was promised the earthly kingdom.
Acts and Paul would seem strongly to indicate otherwise, with the middle wall of partition having been done away with, between Jew and Gentile in the church, and with the Gospel's scope going from Jerusalem, then Samaria, then the uttermost parts of the earth.
 

Doug

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Get this through your head:
Paul refers to the Church as the "Body of Christ" because of his conversion experience.
Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.


Jesus DIDN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” This is precisely what Saul was doing.
Jesus chose to equate the Church with His very own body."

You say a LOT of wacky things on this forum - but this latest claim of yours is among the wackiest . . .
To say Jesus was saying that the church of God that Paul persecuted was members of his body is not substantiated.....Jesus was saying what he was saying in Matthew 25:40......plus the body of Christ is one new man where there is neither Jew or Gentile, not revealed before Acts 9.
 

Doug

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Acts and Paul would seem strongly to indicate otherwise, with the middle wall of partition having been done away with, between Jew and Gentile in the church, and with the Gospel's scope going from Jerusalem, then Samaria, then the uttermost parts of the earth.
The church of God was before Paul, this is the church he persecuted. The middle wall done away was only revealed in the church, the body of Christ, by Paul.
The gospel going out to the uttermost parts was the gospel of the kingdom, the coming kingdom on earth for Israel.
 
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Mungo

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The church started at Pentecost, Acts 2. In Psalm 51.11, David prayed, 'Take not thy holy spirit from me.

This is something that born again members of the church - synonymously - do not need to pray; because at Pentecost the Spirit came to indwell.

The Sprit indwells in (water) baptism.