Does God Mind If Idols Of 'saints' Are Worshipped In Church?

Hobie · Aug 1, 2009

Or any place really, do we have a understanding laid out on this in scripture, lets look at some verses...Leviticus 19:4Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 26:1Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.2 Kings 17:12For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.2 Chronicles 24:18And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.Deuteronomy 29:17And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among themPsalm 135:15The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.Isaiah 2:8Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:Habakkuk 2:18What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?2 Corinthians 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.1 John 5:21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.Revelation 9:20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:So can someone explain to me how the Catholic Church can rationalize it or justify bringing idols into churches before its people, how can they claim to follow God and His Word when they worship idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk, how can they allow idols made by man to be put up in their places of worship when the Bible is so clear on this......

Vickie · Aug 1, 2009

Maybe when you in a church like this, you've not been shown Leviticus or verse that say other wise. making this knowledge unknown to you...IMHO...thanks.

Letsgofishing · Aug 3, 2009

maybe because catholic christians don't worship saints, they ask them too pray for them...like you ask other people to pray for you you may not agree with them,I don't either.... but please don't bash your fellow christians when you don't know what your talking about.

Vickie · Aug 4, 2009

Letsgofishing;71034]maybe because catholic christians don said:
You're right, It is wrong to bash any one who professes Jesus Christ as the Son of God, regardless of what church they are in. They can not be against us if they confess him as Christ and the Son of God. Romans 10:9-10 says that is all one needs to do to be accepted by God and believe in HIM...so we need to be careful not to slander or bad mouth anyone who professes the Christ. We need to work on the beam in our own eye, it is a large plank...

gumby · Aug 5, 2009

Like many have said catholics dont worship saints they honer them, in fact saints play a big role in the bible. Psalms 16:3, Romans 8:27, 1st Corinthians 6:2, Ephesians 2:19 and Revelation 14:12. Those scriptures should help, god bless

Vickie · Aug 5, 2009

gumby;71054]Like many have said catholics dont worship saints they honer them said:
Those are great verses Gumby. One that I like that helps me think about idols and the second death they bring to one, these who continue in any of these things will face the 2nd death if not striving to overcome. Revelation 21:8 The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, THE IDOLATERS and all LIARS.their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.There is so much we don't fully understand it all NOT ONE OF US. And we have to accept what God says in the writings we do understand. Idolaters will be given the 2nd death. Seeking the scriptures for truth and listening to when God says to not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone --any image made by man, an idol or any graven image of anything in heaven Acts 17:29-30After reading this I got rid of all crosses with him on it for me this was what Acts 17 was referring to. Some may disagree and that is fine. But I ultimately am held accountable for my actions. I'd rather be safe than sorry later because I would be going against my conscience if I owned anything like this after reading Acts. Just some food for thought.

Brother Mike · Aug 11, 2009

So can someone explain to me how the Catholic Church can rationalize it or justify bringing idols into churches before its people, how can they claim to follow God and His Word when they worship idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood:

I can if you can explain to me why people think tongues have passed away and God is not interested in healing anyone today but saving the soul only. I can explain it, if you can explain why people that call themselves Christains accuse God of murdering loved ones...... (The lord took them home early) When scriptures clearly points out who the thief is.I can explain it, if you can tell me why people claim God put them in a accident to get there attention accusing him of evil.Let me tell you. It's according to the light you have. Catholics (Same amount as any other belief system) do love God. They have been taught that they themselves are not worthy enough to go to God directly so they ask a saint or Mary because "Jesus" will listen to Mary. They still have needs and wants. They still want God's goodness, but have been taught to suffer for it. It's Satan that has spread the lie. We should feel sorrow for the Catholic belief system, not put the people down and what they believe. They believe what they do because they need light in this area. Are we going to be the light or just hang back and find fault.Jesus Is Lord.

Polar · Aug 11, 2009

I grew up in a Catholic home and went to Catholic School through the 7th grade. I have probably 1000 Masses under my belt as an altar boy. One of the priests, in a moment of candor once said to me, "If Jesus is supposed to love us more than our own parents and he cares more about us than we do for our own children, why would we ever need to go through Mary or a saint to intervene on our behalf?" I think that summed it up nicely. I have had other priests and nuns try to explain it as when you are in trouble as a kid and your mother goes to speak to your father on your behalf to calm him down, grease the wheels or prepare him for something you have done. If Jesus loved me enough to die on the cross for me, I do not see how I would never need someone else to go to him on my behalf in a difficult time. People intercede for me in prayer have the same relationship with Jesus that I do so they can approach him boldly at any time, as well. I do not see where it would ever be necessary, let alone scriptural basis, to speak to Mary or a specific saint in a prayer setting.

MickinEngland · Aug 11, 2009

Statues are made of spiritually-dead lifeless atoms and molecules and are therefore worthless, and anybody who thinks otherwise is an idolater, whether they pray to statues of Jesus, Mary, the saints or the jungle God Boogaloo etc..

Brother Mike · Aug 11, 2009

Well, for one we need Catholic's. Every time there is a devil or monster issue in the movies, the director always turns to Catholic's to fix the problem. Without Catholic's the movie's would have a bad ending in favor of whatever needed dealt with.Catholic's also produce "Holy Water" without that I am sure our vampire population would be dangerously high. It seems to be working because I have not seen one Vampire yet.So you see. Catholic's have a place, not only to make our movies better, but also to keep those vampires at bay.Good post Polar........ Be blessed for the light you have.Jesus Is Lord.

Sir Knight · Aug 12, 2009

Polar;71172]I grew up in a Catholic home and went to Catholic School through the 7th grade. I have probably 1000 Masses under my belt as an altar boy. One of the priests said:
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Infallible Word of God tells us that God does not listen or answer the prayers of sinners ...

James 5:16 - " ... The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much ... "

Isaiah 59:2 - “ ... But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear ... ”

Proverbs 15:29 - “ ... The LORD is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous ... ”

Psalm 66:18 - “ ... If I regard wickedness in my heart, the Lord will not hear ... ”

1 Peter 3:11 - “ ... Let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers; but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil ... ”

John 9:31 - “ ... Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth ... ”

... and I John 1:8 tells us that we are ALL sinners ... "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth isnot in us." If we are all sinners and God does not answer the prayers of sinners, what does that tell you? The only ones who are without sin are those that are already with God in heaven because Rev. 21:27 tells us that "nothing unclean shall ever enter heaven".Thus, God will hear and answer the prayers of the saints on our behalf before He hears and answers our prayers for ourselves. Hope that clears things up as to why Catholics PRAY to saints. Notice, we "pray" to them asking them to pray for us before God.

Brother Mike · Aug 13, 2009

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Sir Knight: My question is why would you want to continually give place to the devil to stop and hinder prayers so much that one would feel the need to ask a saint to pray for them. How about repenting and then getting right with God? That would seem like a better option than not having a direct prayer line to the throne room. Also if you want to continue to sin, what scriptures tell us God would listen to Peter or Mary on your behalf anyway. Surly you can not fool God.Righteousness is obtained by faith. It is a free Gift through our Lord Jesus Christ. We are also told that if we do the Will of God putting Him first then He will hear our prayers. Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. Why continue to rebel against God so much that you need someone else to go to God on your behalf?I myself try to do the will of God to the Best of my knowledge. God hears my prayers every time. They get answered every time. 1Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 1Jn 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. If I mess up, I have Jesus to turn to. Thats why he went to the Cross. I am the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.So, I would stop all that sin in your life. It's not that hard, God will make a way to escape any temptation. Then you won't feel the need to beg someone else to go to God on your behalf.I know you can get victory in your life if you will apply a little effort. The Yoke of Jesus Is not burdensome. Jesus Is Lord.

MickinEngland · Aug 13, 2009

Brother Mike;71246]..Then you won said:
Right' date=' Catholics waste far too much time praying to dead humans (Mary and 'saints') instead of directly to Jesus. Jesus said- [I']"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father" - John 14:13.[/I]

Sir Knight · Aug 13, 2009

Brother Mike;71246][B]Rom 6:13[/B] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God said:
Rom 6:14 [/B] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Sir Knight: My question is why would you want to continually give place to the devil to stop and hinder prayers so much that one would feel the need to ask a saint to pray for them. How about repenting and then getting right with God? That would seem like a better option than not having a direct prayer line to the throne room. Also if you want to continue to sin, what scriptures tell us God would listen to Peter or Mary on your behalf anyway. Surly you can not fool God.Righteousness is obtained by faith. It is a free Gift through our Lord Jesus Christ. We are also told that if we do the Will of God putting Him first then He will hear our prayers. Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. Why continue to rebel against God so much that you need someone else to go to God on your behalf?I myself try to do the will of God to the Best of my knowledge. God hears my prayers every time. They get answered every time. 1Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 1Jn 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. If I mess up, I have Jesus to turn to. Thats why he went to the Cross. I am the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.So, I would stop all that sin in your life. It's not that hard, God will make a way to escape any temptation. Then you won't feel the need to beg someone else to go to God on your behalf.I know you can get victory in your life if you will apply a little effort. The Yoke of Jesus Is not burdensome. Jesus Is Lord.

Then please explain the passages which I referenced in my earlier post which demonstrate that God does not hear the prayers of sinners and I John 1:8 which tells us that we are all sinners and if we say otherwise, then we are liars? Please reconcile those passages and explain why God would answer your prayer when the bible says otherwirse. I eagerly await your reply.

Sir Knight · Aug 13, 2009

MickinEngland;71251]Right said:
"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father" - John 14:13.[/I]

Then how do you explain Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 which tell us that our God is the God of the living not the dead?

MickinEngland · Aug 13, 2009

Sir Knight;71258 said:
Then how do you explain Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 which tell us that our God is the God of the living not the dead?

I'm not sure what you're getting at mate? Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary and to 'saints'?Who saves, them or Jesus?

Brother Mike · Aug 13, 2009

Sir Knight:Brother we WERE sinners Saved by grace though faith. All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. There was none righteous not one as our righteousness is like filthy Rags.......I get what your saying brother. Now the reply.............

Then please explain the passages which I referenced in my earlier post which demonstrate that God does not hear the prayers of sinners and I John 1:8 which tells us that we are all sinners and if we say otherwise, then we are liars? Please reconcile those passages and explain why God would answer your prayer when the bible says otherwirse. I eagerly await your reply.

I make the some mistakes myself at times and forget the scripture was not given in scripture and verse. We tend to focus on one thing to prove what we believe or not believe. What did John tell us by the Holy Ghost. First John talks about loving our brothers and sisters in Christ in Chapter two, he also talked about keeping his commandments which there are two.He went on to discuss these two commandments. 1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. The commandments:Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. So, john said you can not hate your brother and say you love God. Your breaking that love command and walk in darkness. If you say your not in sin then you are lying against the truth because your not keeping that love command. This is how the world knows we are His because we love each other. On those two love commands hang all the rest of the Law. Stealing, adultery, false witness against another, Killing, Coveting, ETC.......... Your breaking that love command if you are stealing from someone for example. John said if you keep that love command you abide in the light and there is no stumbling in you. Your sins are forgiven. Now back to John 1:1-1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Once again John said if we have fellowship with one another then the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from all sin. We have no sin if we keep those commandments he gave us. WALK IN THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Judge not!!! FORGIVE and you shall be forgiven!!! ETC..................So we don't have sin!!! but if we don't walk in that Love Commandment.1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Now how many Christians you know judge others and put their mouth on others that believe different? They think they are right and justified for doing that. Look at the debate of those against other denominations. Look all the literature of those the Write against Catholics, or the Word of faith bunch. Thats not love, but the deceive themselves thinking they are right. John said there was still hope to be free of sin in the next verse. 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. BAM!!! no more sin!!!1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Thats past tense, everyone has sinned at one time or another, but that does not mean we can be forgiven. If someone says they have never sinned and been perfect then they never needed Jesus and we know that to be a lie. We don't have to stay sinners though. As john pointed out.Now john chapter 1 goes to john chapter 2 as He explains more of what he was talking about, and what the sin is and how to fix it. So, My question is. If you have to pray to saints because of sin, why not confess that sin and stop breaking that commandent of Love???The love of God is shed abroad in your heart by the Holy Ghost. You have power in yourself to do this. If you have issues with sin then we can help.I hope I made it more clear.Be blessed brother.Jesus Is Lord.

Nomad · Aug 13, 2009

Sir Knight;71257]Then please explain the passages which I referenced in my earlier post which demonstrate that God does not hear the prayers of sinners and I John 1:8 which tells us that we are all sinners and if we say otherwise said:
First I would say that the majority of the passages you cite speak of the "wicked," "wickedness," "those who do evil" and those who are generally unrepentant. There is a difference between these and the regenerate "sinner" mentioned by John in his first epistle. The reconcilliation that you seek however is found in a couple of the other passages you cite and one you did not. First, the ones you cited:Joh 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. Notice that John and James are speaking about the effectiveness of prayer to living, regenerate, believing Christians who according to John still have sin, not departed saints. So what's the difference here? God does not hear the prayers of the unregenerate and the unrepentant. He does however hear the prayers of His redeemed who will inevitably continue to struggle with sin... flesh against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. The Apostle Paul would wholeheartedly agree with the Apostle John. Take a look: Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Sir Knight · Aug 15, 2009

All of that stuff about being forgiven our sins, refers to the sins that we had prior to coming to the faith. If we sin after coming to the faith, then those sins remain. I refer you to Hebrews 10:26-27 ...For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.And do not falsely believe that once we accept the faith, we can no longer sin because if that were the case, what would be the point of Paul's warning if it was something that couldn't happen?Additionally, Jesus tells us in Rev. 3:4 that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin. There is even a passage in the OT which tells us that even the just man offends God several times a day.

Vickie · Aug 15, 2009

Sir Knight;71319]All of that stuff about being forgiven our sins said:
Hi Sir Knight. Heb 10:26 is quite debated among brethren. As with all the writings of the bible, the conclusion is found by the context of what is being said in the chapter. Christ blood still covers our sins after we are baptized and accept him as Savior. Willful sinning must not occur after this acceptance, coming out of sinful ways in life becomes our job daily. The spirit given to us shows us our sin, repentance is required, and the blood will cover us, but let us not take this process lightly. Or that Grace is a license to keep sinning. That is of the Devil's teaching. Willful sin will trample the Son's image and name whom we represent. Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God? Willful sin is treating the blood of Christ with contempt by our actions. We are to strive to come out of sin daily. The blood will cover sin after we have accepted Christ, but as the Hebrew writer says, if we have deliberate sinning the blood will not cover us as verse 26 speaks. The controversy is what is willful or deliberate sin? We all have evilness in us, but because of the blood shed we have a way out of the sinful nature through the holy spirit. We are to strive to walk upright in the spirit that we will not trample the Son of God's IMAGE who is shown in us and gave us this spirit. This is very serious with each of us. Repentance was given as a part of the process of forgiveness, that we acknowledge these sins to our Lord who is kind, patient and forgiving, when we admit the sin we so easily slip into. God commands that we speak to Him concerning our sins and ask for forgiveness from Him for them, always. The Lord sees the heart and knows each man's intent. Sincerity must be seen by God in repentance from each of us. This is were the heart becomes hardened if no repentance is made in sincerity, and we become calloused to God's spirit in us, the voice that speaks to us. We are to protect this Holy Spirit by walking in truth, and love for God and others. God will continue to forgive us for our sins under the blood shed for us, when sincerity of heart is there. If we cast this to the side and willfully continue in sins that destroy God's image whom we carry, we have no sacrifice for sins left and a fiery expectation of raging fire is left. We are obligated to the Law of Christ (Heb 7:12),to live according, just as those who were under the Law of Moses were obligated. Heb 10:28 If anyone rejected the Law of Moses, they died without MERCY on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (29) Howe much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an UNHOLY THING, THE BLOOD OF CHRIST? We are obligated to walk upright, serve others, esteem them better than ourself, and be fearful of God's anger, the raging fire, which will come on anyone who tarnishes or tramples HIS SON'S IMAGE and NAME. Daily we ought to consider our actions to seek they glorify God's name and not be actions that destroy Christ's image. who's name we carry. As it is with a physical family name we carry, our parents do not want us to destroy their image or name as their children by stealing or committing murder and make them ashamed, so it is with our Lord whose name we carry.

Does God Mind If Idols Of 'saints' Are Worshipped In Church?

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