Does God Mind If Idols Of 'saints' Are Worshipped In Church?

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Sir Knight

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[quote name='Brother Mike;71558]Sir Knight' date=' Your hard core, Old School Catholic. If your Happy with what you believe and it's what you see in the Word, then there is not much else to post about. Your butting heads with those of us who are not Catholic. We will not agree with you. I am Word of Faith, and I butt heads with Baptist, Presbyterians, and even tongue talking Pentecostals. Catholic's to..... but they don't tend to judge others and write long articles about how evil a certain group is. Thats for your Baptist and Presbyterians. Jesus Is Lord, I believe that and you believe that, so we still have something in common.Be blessed.Jesus Is Lord.[/QUOTE']Jesus said that He was founding a Church -- NOT Churches. He said that there was to be one flock -- NOT many flocks all believing different things. Prior to the Protestant Reformation, there was only ONE flock.The bible itself tells us that the Church is supports and defends that faith -- NOT scripture. Why then, do you place more value on scripture than on the Church especially when the bible warns us that scripture can be difficult to understand correctly and can lead to a person's ruin if they understand it incorrectly.
 

Brother Mike

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The bible itself tells us that the Church is supports and defends that faith -- NOT scripture.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Rom 10:17The Word of God is what founding the Chruch, it is eternal. What scripture do you have where the church Exceeds the authority of the Word of God?
Why then, do you place more value on scripture than on the Church
Now you have crossed the line into la la land. I thought you were a Christian, If your salvation is based on a building and group of people then you better recheck some things. I would post a ton of scriptures to help you, but you would just say those scriptures don't mean that. Only the ones you post.Sir Knight, you need some serious help. I will no longer amuse you.Brother Mike.
 

Sir Knight

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[quote name='Brother Mike;71574]Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Rom 10:17The Word of God is what founding the Chruch' date=' it is eternal. What scripture do you have where the church Exceeds the authority of the Word of God?Now you have crossed the line into la la land. I thought you were a Christian, If your salvation is based on a building and group of people then you better recheck some things. I would post a ton of scriptures to help you, but you would just say those scriptures don't mean that. Only the ones you post.Sir Knight, you need some serious help. I will no longer amuse you.Brother Mike.[/QUOTE']You need to remove the blank from your own eye before telling someone to remove the speck from their eye. I refer you to ... 1 Timothy 3:15 "If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." Most Protestants believe that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and no knowledge outside of the Bible is necessary for our salvation. But then why does Saint Paul write that the Church, and not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth? This is a powerful text that refutes the Protestant theory of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) which erroneously holds that the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth (a theory which cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures). Instead, Saint Paul says the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. This means that all the truth Jesus left us concerning faith, morality and our salvation flows from a living Church which, as we have learned, is built by Christ upon the rock of Peter and his successors. As the Catholic Church teaches, God has given us His truth in the form of the living word (written Scriptures and oral tradition) and the living teaching authority of the Church, endowed with the gift of binding and loosing. In fact, it is because the Church is the foundation of truth that we believe in the Bible. This is because the Catholic Church put the Bible together by determining which books were inspired and which books were not. The Church completed its selection of the "canon of Scripture" at the end of the fourth century. If the Catholic Church were not the pinnacle and bulwark of the truth, our belief in the Bible would be without foundation. The Church's compilation of the Bible illuminates the error of sola Scriptura. As alluded to above, Protestants generally believe that God has revealed everything that is necessary for our salvation through the Bible alone. Consequently, they also believe that no knowledge found outside of the Bible regarding the Christian faith is necessary for our salvation. However, the knowledge of which Scriptures belong in the Bible and which Scriptures do not is necessary for our salvation because if we didn't know this we could be led into error. Further, this knowledge could only come from God because human beings cannot necessarily discern divine inspiration. The problem, therefore, with sola Scriptura, is that the knowledge of which Scriptures are inspired and which ones are not is not contained in the Bible. The Bible does not have an "inspired table of contents." Instead, this knowledge of the canon of Scripture is a revelation from God that is necessary for our salvation, and yet came to us from outside the Bible . This revelation was given to the Holy Catholic Church, and this historical and theological fact destroys the doctrine of sola Scriptura (interestingly, while Protestants reject the authority of the Catholic Church on most matters, they accept her authority in determining the New Testament canon of Scripture; we pejoratively call such picking and choosing which doctrines to believe and which doctrines to reject "Cafeteria Catholicism"). If I were a Protestant trying to prove sola Scriptura, and there was a verse that said "the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of the truth," I would be proclaiming that verse from the roof tops. At the same time, if I were a Protestant, I would have to ignore 1 Timothy 3:15 to continue my protest of the Catholic faith.
 

ZakarEl

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Exodus 20 ; 4 , And I Qoute ; You Woll Not Aw - Saw ( Fashion ) For You Self Feh - Sel ( Idol ) Kole ( At All ) Any Tem - Oo - Naw ( Likeness ) In The Shaw - Mah ( Skies ) Above , Or That Is Upon The Eh - Rets ( Planet Earth ) . Or Takh - Ath ( Inside The Planet Earth ) , Or Takh ( Under , Inside ) The Mah - Yeem ( Waters ) Under The Eh - Rets ( Planet Earth ) . You Are Not To Fashion For Yourself To Worship , And Kind Of Idol Of Any Thing Or Likeness That Is In The Skies Above , Or Upon The Planet Earth , Or Inside The Planet Earth , Or Even Under The Coaters Of The Planet Earth ;... If The Making Of Images Is Forbidden , Then Why Did Your God Tell You To Put Two Cherubs On The Ark Of The Covenant ( Exodus 25 ; 18 ) ? Is He Trying To Trick You Into Doing Wrong So That He Could Perform Some Magical , Majestical Feat And Get Props ? The Same Way That He Used The Egyptians , And Hardened Their Hearts So They Would Not Let The Israelites Go , Then Tortured Them By ; * Turning Water To Blood And Killing Al The Fish In The River ( Exodus 7 ; 21 ) ;.... A Plague Of Frogs ( Exodus 8 ; 6 ) ;.... Plague Of Lice ( Exodus 8 ; 17 ) ;.... Plague Of Flies ( Exodus 8 ; 24 );.... A Plague Of Boils ( Exodus 9 ; 10 - 11 ) ;.... A Swarm Of Locusts ( Exodus 10 ; 14 - 15 ) ;.... Three Days Of Darkness ( Exodus 10 ; 26 ) ;.... Then All Of The First Born Were Killed ( Exodus 12 ; 29 ) . The God Of The Torah Did All Of This To The Egyptians While All Along , He Was The One Hardening The Pharaoh's Hearts In ( Exodus 7 ; 13 , 7; 22 , 8 ; 19 And 9 ; 12 ) . The Pharaoh Said He Would Let Them Go And That He Had Enough In ( Exodus 9 ; 28 ) But That Wasn't Enough For Moses , He Wanted Pharaoh To Fear His God ( Exodus 9 ; 20 ) . But Then God Hardening The Pharaoh's Hearts Again So That He Would Not Let The Children Of Israel Go Exodus 9 ; 35 ) . Then In Exodus 10 ; 16 - 17 The Pharaoh Says And I Quote ; In Part .... I Have Sinned Against The Lord Your God , And Against You . Now Therefore Forgive , I Pray Thee , My Sin Only This Once , And Entrat The Lord Your God , That He May Take Away From Me This Death Only , '' But In Exodus 10 ; 29 , God Hardening The Pharaoh's Hearts Again And It Goes On Like This With The Pharaoh Giving Up And Still Being Plagued . In Exodus 25 ; 18 - 20 ,Why Were 2 Winger Beings ( Cherubims Of Gold ) Commanded To Be Put On The Ark Of The Covenant ? Exodus 25 ; 18 - 20 , And I Quote ; And You Will Make Two Cherubims '' Disagreeable Eloheem Of Gold Hammering Will You Fashion Them , In The Two Ends Of The Lid . And Fashioned This Cherub '' Disagreeable Eloh '' On This End , And The Other Cherub On The Other End ; Even For The Lid Will You Make The Cherubims On The Two Ends Of It . And The Cherubims Will Stretch Forth Their Wings On High Covering , The Lid With Their Wings , And Facing Each Other Across As The Ezraites Son Of Zerach ; Toward The Lid Faceing Before The Cherubims Be . Aren't The Winged Beings On The Ark Of The Covenant Images Of What Is In The Heavens ? Christians Would Have To Say '' Yes '' , Because They Fly . That Would Be The Purpose Of The Wings And The Only Thing That Walks Around With Wings And Doesn't Fly Is A Chicken . According To Exodus 25 ; 18 , Two Cherubim Were To Be Put On The Ark Of The Covenant .Exodus 25 ; 18 , And I Quote ; And Thou Make Two Cherubims Of Gold , Of Beaten Work Shalt Thous Make Them , In The Two Ends Of The Mercy Seat . According To Your Torah Cherubim - aramic - Are '' Angelic Beings , As Guardians Of Eaden '' . These Are The Angelic Beings That Were Placed At The East Of The Garden Of Eden As Can Be Found In Genesis 3 ; 24 , Where It Says And I Quote ; '' A Flaming Sword Which Turned Every Way , To Keep The Way Of The Tree Of Life , '' And Angels Are In The Image Of Men With Wings . Right , Because Everytime You See The Image Of An Angel , It Is A Man With Wings . So The Cherubims Were Beings , Symbolic Men . Then Put The Symbol Of Man On The Ark Of The Covenant . Isn't That A Sin According To Exodus 20 ; 4 ? Why Would Their God Have Them Make An Image Of A Fake Angel In God With Wings They Will Never Use To Fly ? Is This The Same God That In Exodus Chapter 32 Had Them Put Other Israelites To Death For Making A Golden Calf ? Some Christians With Answer '' Yes '' . Ans Say It's Alright For Him To Order Moses To Make A Golden Image Exodus Chapter 25 But It Was Wrong For His Brother Aaron To Make It In Exodus Chapter 32 , Which Is Actually After Exodus Chapter 25 . As Usual They'll Have A Dumb Look On Their Face , Or Make Up Some Silly Excuse That Won't Be Backed By The Scriptures . Is The Ark Of The Covenant A Form Of Idol Worship . If The Christians Are Honest , They Will Have To Say '' Yes '' , Is Idol Worship A Sin Or Not ? If They Are Honest , They Would Have To Say '' Yes '' . It Is A Sin .
 

mjrhealth

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Who was it that where slaughtering the christians, the Romans, who started the catholick church, the romans, and as far as i know they stared this bible thing, then only did church in latin so the pople didnt have a clue what was going on, I know, i was a catholic, i have being to many latin masses ( killing Jesus again). that is not a good foundation for truth is it. Yet all Jesus ever said was, " The words that I SPEAK they are spirirt and they are life, never ever mentioned a book, never ever did He ask the disciples to write anything down, except for revelation, and never expected us to learn from anyone but the Holy Spirit, and His church was supoposed to be a spiritual one untill man decided as always, being fleshy and all, to go and build one, just like bablylon, and it ended up just the same, many voices all in confusion, not seeking the truth but looking for words that please the ear, in the end, it will not be the world that will persecute Gods people it will be the church, just like what happened to Jesus and the disciples, " Come out of Her my people, He cries, LEst you be a partaker of her sins", will you not listen.In His Love
 

The Barbarian

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Statues are made of spiritually-dead lifeless atoms and molecules and are therefore worthless, and anybody who thinks otherwise is an idolater, whether they pray to statues of Jesus, Mary, the saints or the jungle God Boogaloo etc..
So the Catholic Church says. The Catechism makes that very clear. Nevertheless, there have been foolish and ignorant people who have worshiped images, in defiance of common sense and Christian doctrine.
 

armourbeaer

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Sir Knight;71576]You need to remove the blank from your own eye before telling someone to remove the speck from their eye. I refer you to ... [B]1 Timothy 3:15[/B][I] "If I am delayed said:
Most Protestants believe that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and no knowledge outside of the Bible is necessary for our salvation. But then why does Saint Paul write that the Church, and not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth? This is a powerful text that refutes the Protestant theory of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) which erroneously holds that the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth (a theory which cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures). Instead, Saint Paul says the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. This means that all the truth Jesus left us concerning faith, morality and our salvation flows from a living Church which, as we have learned, is built by Christ upon the rock of Peter and his successors. As the Catholic Church teaches, God has given us His truth in the form of the living word (written Scriptures and oral tradition) and the living teaching authority of the Church, endowed with the gift of binding and loosing. In fact, it is because the Church is the foundation of truth that we believe in the Bible. This is because the Catholic Church put the Bible together by determining which books were inspired and which books were not. The Church completed its selection of the "canon of Scripture" at the end of the fourth century. If the Catholic Church were not the pinnacle and bulwark of the truth, our belief in the Bible would be without foundation. The Church's compilation of the Bible illuminates the error of sola Scriptura. As alluded to above, Protestants generally believe that God has revealed everything that is necessary for our salvation through the Bible alone. Consequently, they also believe that no knowledge found outside of the Bible regarding the Christian faith is necessary for our salvation. However, the knowledge of which Scriptures belong in the Bible and which Scriptures do not is necessary for our salvation because if we didn't know this we could be led into error. Further, this knowledge could only come from God because human beings cannot necessarily discern divine inspiration. The problem, therefore, with sola Scriptura, is that the knowledge of which Scriptures are inspired and which ones are not is not contained in the Bible. The Bible does not have an "inspired table of contents." Instead, this knowledge of the canon of Scripture is a revelation from God that is necessary for our salvation, and yet came to us from outside the Bible . This revelation was given to the Holy Catholic Church, and this historical and theological fact destroys the doctrine of sola Scriptura (interestingly, while Protestants reject the authority of the Catholic Church on most matters, they accept her authority in determining the New Testament canon of Scripture; we pejoratively call such picking and choosing which doctrines to believe and which doctrines to reject "Cafeteria Catholicism"). If I were a Protestant trying to prove sola Scriptura, and there was a verse that said "the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of the truth," I would be proclaiming that verse from the roof tops. At the same time, if I were a Protestant, I would have to ignore 1 Timothy 3:15 to continue my protest of the Catholic faith.
When I began to look up the meanings of words in the Strong's that was when I finally began to understand what Truth really was/is.1 Tim. 3:15 is a prime example.1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the *house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Too many people make the same mistake when it comes to the word 'house.'Whether it's "the Father's house" (Jn. 14:1)or the 'house of God,' (used here), etc etc. People wrongly assume the Father House is Heaven, and or a 'church building,' but that isn't always the defintion of the word...house #3624 oikos a dwelling (more or less extensive, literal or figurative); by implication, a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively):--home, house(-hold), temple. Note. Many times it IS a dwelling place, but it also can be a family,household, body of believers, people...There are more than 20 Passages where it would be translated as a family etc. I will just post a few of them:Matt. 12: 43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.Heb. 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.1 Tim 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.So we see that God's House here is not the 'church' it is the 'household,' the people, the believers ('we') that have the truth that are the pillar.
 

geordie72

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1st. Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God." Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed”. New Testament punishment - Mark 16:16 “He that believeth not, shall be damne...Make up your own mind...
 

judd

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Right' date=' Catholics waste far too much time praying to dead humans (Mary and 'saints') instead of directly to Jesus. Jesus said- [I']"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father" - John 14:13.[/I]
[/qu

Jesus Christ said it that we should pray in His name. Is there any part written in the bible where they said we should tell saints to intercede for us?
 

Brother Mike

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Well Judd?????????????????????

We are saints, (some of us :lol: ) and we are suppose to Pray for each other. Here is one of several scriptures.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Now, where we don't put any (Or Should not) emphasis on the person praying, but on God who hears, they believe that God will Hear certain people more than others, as they have reached a higher place of Purity. The Work of the Cross is a ongoing process for them, and get's mixed up with what we call Christian Growth. So, Where God looks at faith, they think God looks at people.

Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Rom 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Those that have left earth, have no more authority over earth as they are no longer flesh and blood and of this physical world anymore. Catholics don't see it that way.

The issue with the Catholic Church and one of the reasons its hard to witness to them is because they have other works of men they consider to be just as solid and true as the Bible. So, I can get some to see that Healing is for Today, and they can get Victory in that, but they still (In my experience) combine that information with everything else they believe. Where you and I take the Bible as authoritative only, they just add and compile in about everything. Hence we have Holy Water, just in case of Vampires. I mean you never know, and need to be prepared.

As said above, they do believe in Jesus, and we ought to be careful on any judgment and what we say about them. Just like in our Churches, some of them are really awesome people that love God.

Jesus Is Lord.
 

shnarkle

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This is really nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black. Churches that have idols are effectively no different than churches that don't for the salient reason that everyone has some sort of idea or image of the god that they worship. This is idolatry. Just because some people don't have as active an imagination of others doesn't make them any more worse off than those who do.

The God we as Christians inherited from Judaism is a monotheistic God and as such is transcendent. Transcendent Gods are beyond images, imagination, concepts, ideas, names, etc. When people say that they're not engaging in idolatry, but then inform us that they worship Jesus, or pray to the Father through Jesus, they're still praying to God as an object; the object of their worship. So even this is idolatry. Jesus didn't point to the way, he is the way.

The problem is probably in our language because no matter how you say it, Jesus ends up being referred to as an object. Herein lies the problem. Jesus is the mediator between God and men, but we've got this way of thinking that prevents us from utilizing Christ as the only mediator we need; our intellect. This is our mediator, and it will never lead us to God; not that there's anything wrong with thinking about God, it just isn't the way to connect to the reality that is found in Christ.
 

epostle1

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Brother Mike said:
I thought this thread had died.
It should. It's loaded with lies, falsehoods, misrepresentations and distortions about what Catholics believe. Such is the religion of the anti-Catholic.

Sometimes we miss things in the Bible, though they are right in front of us. Some of our Protestant brethren (mainly Calvinists but some other denominations as well) have an almost obsessive fear of any image associated with worship at all, thinking that all such manifestations are examples of idolatry and undue exaltation of a “graven image”. This has led some fanatical elements to oppose even crucifixes and statues of Christ as idols. In other words, all images whatsoever are collapsed in this wrongheaded mentality into the category of the “graven image” in the Ten Commandments. But the Bible doesn’t take this view at all. Here is one striking example:

Exodus 33:8-10 (RSV) Whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose up, and every man stood at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he had gone into the tent. [9] When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the door of the tent, and the LORD would speak with Moses. [10] And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the door of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, every man at his tent door.

Note that the pillar of cloud is:

1) a creation (water, if a literal cloud);
2) visual, hence an image;
and
3) thought to directly represent God Himself.

It’s also a supernatural manifestation, which is a major difference compared to any true idol made by the hands of men; but that would make no difference for those who mistakenly hold that any image whatsoever associated with God is impermissible. The problem comes when God Himself expressly sanctions such images, and worship in conjunction with them, as here.

The same iconoclasts (opposers of images) have to explain away things like the burning bush (Ex 3:2-6), which is not only fire, but also called an “angel of the Lord” (Ex 3:2), yet also “God” (3:4, 6, 11, 13-16, 18; 4:5, 7-8) and “the LORD” (3:7, 16, 18; 4:2, 4-6, 10-11, 14) interchangeably. An angel is a creation (as is fire and cloud); yet God chose to use a created being and inanimate objects to visibly represent Him. Several similar instances occur in the Old Testament. Moreover, the Jews “worshiped” fire as representative of God in the following passage:

2 Chronicles 7:1-4 When Solomon had ended his prayer, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple. [2] And the priests could not enter the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD filled the LORD’s house. [3] When all the children of Israel saw the fire come down and the glory of the LORD upon the temple, they bowed down with their faces to the earth on the pavement, and worshiped and gave thanks to the LORD, saying, “For he is good, for his steadfast love endures for ever.” [4] Then the king and all the people offered sacrifice before the LORD.
 

mjrhealth

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anti-Catholic.
Dont know any anti catholics just many who hate lies deceipt anti-Christ and catholism, and all the othe "religions". God is not religious and thos who know Him know it to be true.
 

heavenforbid

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Hobie said:
Or any place really, do we have a understanding laid out on this in scripture, lets look at some verses...Leviticus 19:4Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 26:1Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.2 Kings 17:12For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.2 Chronicles 24:18And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.Deuteronomy 29:17And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among themPsalm 135:15The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.Isaiah 2:8Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:Habakkuk 2:18What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?2 Corinthians 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.1 John 5:21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.Revelation 9:20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:So can someone explain to me how the Catholic Church can rationalize it or justify bringing idols into churches before its people, how can they claim to follow God and His Word when they worship idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk, how can they allow idols made by man to be put up in their places of worship when the Bible is so clear on this......
If you knew would it stop them?
 

epostle1

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(Sergiusz Michalski, Reformation and the Visual Arts: The Protestant Image Question in Western and Eastern Europe, New York: Routledge, 1993 , p. 56)

Michalski’s book contains many shocking descriptions of the thousands of pathetic acts of Protestant iconoclasm, such as paintings of Mary thrown into a latrine, statues of Mary hacked to pieces, along with vulgarities I won’t even mention in mixed company; crucifixes stabbed, decapitated, hanged, eyes gouged out (all in the name of the shunning of idolatry); images of St. Francis being mocked with donkey’s ears or ram’s horns attached to them, or hanged on a gallows; statues having animal manure or urine thrown onto them in mockery. One clueless idiot in Basle, in 1529, threw a crucifix into a fire, shouting, “If you are God, defend yourself, if you are human, bleed” (p. 78).

Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575) was Zwingli’s successor in Zurich. He fell prey to the same error:
Bullinger . . . denies that crucifixes can represent Christ’s divine nature . . . He argues against the iconodulic Second Council of Nicaea (787); says that pagan and Christian idolatry are not really different . . .

(Carlos M. N. Eire, War Against the Idols: The Reformation of Worship from Erasmus to Calvin, Cambridge University Press, 1989, p. 88)

Martin Luther, at least, was blessedly free of this sort of biblically illiterate, anti-incarnational nonsense, as I have noted. Thank God that Bach was born Lutheran. In Puritan England, he would have been employed in smashing organs, rather than playing them.

Charging Catholics with idolatry because we have statues of Jesus and Mary is profoundly stupid.

Related Reading:
Ten Commandments: Changed by Catholics to Uphold Idolatry? [9-4-04]
*
Martin Luther on Crucifixes, Images and Statues of Saints, and the Sign of the Cross [4-15-08]
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Bible on Physical Objects as Aids in Worship [4-7-09]
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Crucifixes: Abominable Idols or Devotional Aids? [11-10-09]
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Biblical Evidence for Worship of God Via an Image [6-24-11]
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Lutheran Philosopher Gottfried Leibniz on Non-Idolatrous Veneration and Pious, Devotional Use of Images [Facebook, 1-23-12]
*
Massive Protestant Idolatry at Christmastime? [12-15-13]

Fundamentalist/Calvinist/iconoclasts have no case.
 

epostle1

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heavenfold said:
If you knew would it stop them?
Catholic churches have no idols. The charge is ridiculous.

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.

Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

If you think God is commanding idolatry, you need to grow a brain cell.

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

This is "idolatry" in keeping with the false charges made against Catholics. Fundamentalists/Calvinists/iconoclasts should correct the Bible writers with the same vehemence as they do Catholics.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.


It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.
 

mjrhealth

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For some one to have a statue of some one to remember them than they dont have that someone, If that someone is Christ, does that mean you dont have Him, for if you did you would not need idols to remember Him, would you?? As for the idols of Jesus on teh cross

Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Do we have to remind Him, you know Jesus has not been on that cross for over 2000 years, it is a place of death, as for the discipkles, what purpose is there in sttaues of them, it does nothing for ones salvation, they are nof Jesus nor God an therfore should not be worshipped or reverred yet they are,

Always trying to justify a lie.

I wil lhave no other Gods before me

Rev_9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Is that not what you do.???
 

heavenforbid

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Feb 9, 2017
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kepha31 said:
Catholic churches have no idols. The charge is ridiculous.

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.

Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

If you think God is commanding idolatry, you need to grow a brain cell.

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

This is "idolatry" in keeping with the false charges made against Catholics. Fundamentalists/Calvinists/iconoclasts should correct the Bible writers with the same vehemence as they do Catholics.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.


It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.
I've been to their book stores, they sell nothing but idol junk.
 
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