A question for mormons.

justbyfaith · May 8, 2020

@Jane_Doe22

Consider John 5:24:

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The words of Jesus, in which He says that He is speaking "verily, verily" and tells us that, in effect, everlasting life begins at the moment of faith; i.e. the moment you have faith, you have passed from death unto life: you are saved by grace.

How then do you reconcile this with what is written in the Book of Mormon, from which they greatly derive their doctrine of salvation, that "ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do"?

It seems to me that the Book of Mormon and its doctrines are not compatible with biblical Christianity.

But if you can answer this question, I may consider mormonism a little bit further.

Jane_Doe22 · May 8, 2020

What LDS Christians do not believe in: cheap grace. The idea that a person can shallowly say "yeah I believe in God", and then continue on their exact same sinful ways with zero change whatsoever. That's not real conversion or discipleship.

What member of the Church of Jesus Christ do believe in: that salvation is by faith, It is a gift from God. You don't earn a gift, but you do accept it and let it transform you. A person should accept Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior. Have faith in Him and repent of their old sinful ways. Accept Him, celebrate Him, and strive to follow Him -- empowered by Him. That's what we do: follow Him, empowered by Him. That transformation (happening over a lifetime+) is true giving your heart to Him and discipleship.

justbyfaith · May 8, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
What LDS Christians do not believe in: cheap grace. The idea that a person can shallowly say "yeah I believe in God", and then continue on their exact same sinful ways with zero change whatsoever. That's not real conversion or discipleship.

What member of the Church of Jesus Christ do believe in: that salvation is by faith, It is a gift from God. You don't earn a gift, but you do accept it and let it transform you. A person should accept Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior. Have faith in Him and repent of their old sinful ways. Accept Him, celebrate Him, and strive to follow Him -- empowered by Him. That's what we do: follow Him, empowered by Him. That transformation (happening over a lifetime+) is true giving your heart to Him and discipleship.

When is a person saved by grace...at the moment of first faith, or after they have done everything they can possibly do to earn their salvation?

No one is disputing that grace doesn't teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11-14). This brings up another point: if you don't have grace until you have reached the end of your life, it can't teach you these things until after you're dead.

I am of the opinion that grace changes a man so that he is different on the inside.

But if I can't have grace until after all that I can do, I have to wait for that transformation until after I have lived a full life.

The very thing that enables me to live a life that is pleasing to God is therefore postponed until after I have lived a life in which God requires me to live pleasing to Him, apart from that enabling power.

Preacher4Truth · May 8, 2020

@justbyfaith

The real issues are at least twofold.

1) Their "christ" is not the Christ of Scripture, but is a created being, brother (literal) of Satan. Consider John 8:24.

2) Their gospel, by their own admission, is "another testament of Jesus Christ." Consider Galatians 1:8-10, there is no other Gospel.

Also consider Mormons will not own up to their own documented teachings. This is a well known trait of this cult.

Apologia Studios and Cultish are two good sources that witness to Mormons and provide great resources into this false "christian" sect.

justbyfaith · May 8, 2020

Also, in Jude 1:3, it is written that the faith of Christianity was once and for all delivered to the saints.

So for mormonism to be valid, it would have to be the exact same faith as orthodox Christianity.

But there is clearly a difference between the two.

And also, if they are the exact same, then there is no need to read any of their extrabiblical documents in order to get the explicit "truth" of mormonism.

Jane_Doe22 · May 8, 2020

justbyfaith said:
When is a person saved by grace...at the moment of first faith, or after they have done everything they can possibly do to earn their salvation?

No one is disputing that grace doesn't teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11-14). This brings up another point: if you don't have grace until you have reached the end of your life, it can't teach you these things until after you're dead.

Discipleship is a lifetime+ journey. There's no "clock off, I'm done" point.
When a person is new in their walk with Christ, they are indeed saved and walking empowered by Him. That love and relationships deepens through time, and they learn more and more, more and more witnesses from the Spirit. and when they are decades old into their walk with Christ, they will indeed still be saved and walking empowered by Him.
It... seems strange to me to say mark one single day on the calendar when I fell in love with Him, because I so regularly fall more and more in love with Him.

justbyfaith said:
I am of the opinion that grace changes a man so that he is different on the inside.

Amen to that!!

justbyfaith said:
The very thing that enables me to live a life that is pleasing to God is therefore postponed until after I have lived a life in which God requires me to live pleasing to Him, apart from that enabling power.

No postponing here! Coming to Christ is something each person should right away, each and every day.

Preacher4Truth · May 8, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Also, in Jude 1:3, it is written that the faith of Christianity was once and for all delivered to the saints.

So for mormonism to be valid, it would have to be the exact same faith as orthodox Christianity.

But there is clearly a difference between the two.

And also, if they are the exact same, then there is no need to read any of their extrabiblical documents in order to get the explicit "truth" of mormonism.

Now you're thinking!

Jane_Doe22 · May 8, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Also, in Jude 1:3, it is written that the faith of Christianity was once and for all delivered to the saints.

So for mormonism to be valid, it would have to be the exact same faith as orthodox Christianity.

But there is clearly a difference between the two.

And also, if they are the exact same, then there is no need to read any of their extrabiblical documents in order to get the explicit "truth" of mormonism.

LDS Christians aren't Protestant Christians. I don't personally strive to become Catholic Christian or a Protestant Christian or an Orthodox Christian, because (saying this with all possible respect) I have some major theological disagreements there. But I do strive to better understand my Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox siblings in Christ.

justbyfaith, if you find Protestant Christianity be most consistent with your reading of scripture, then that's awesome, and I wish you the best Protestant Christian journey possible. May you and Christ ever grow closer.

justbyfaith · May 8, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
No postponing here!

It seems to me that there is a postponing. You are not saved by grace until after all that ye can do.

Therefore, you have to do all that you can before you can become a recipient of grace. This would take a lifetime.

Thus, I cannot be transformed by grace until my life is over, at least, according to that verse in the book of mormon.

Jane_Doe22 · May 8, 2020

justbyfaith said:
It seems to me that there is a postponing. You are not saved by grace until after all that ye can do..

I'm not saved until I accept Christ is my Lord & Savior. I love Him from the bottom of my heart. -- That's all I or anyone else can do. And a person should indeed do so today. And keep loving Him & following Him, every single day.

justbyfaith · May 8, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
I'm not saved until I accept Christ is my Lord & Savior. I love Him from the bottom of my heart. -- That's all I or anyone else can do. And a person should indeed do so today. And keep loving Him & following Him, every single day.

It seems to me that you are not following Mormonism...for in Mormonism ye are saved by grace after all that ye can do.

Simply receiving Jesus as your Lord and Saviour is not sufficient...you must work, work, work, to the end of your life before you can become a recipient of grace.

Re-interpreting the verse by saying that all that ye can do is obey John 1:12 is not Mormon teaching.

The verse in question (in the Book of Mormon) appears to me to teach salvation by works...and from what I have heard of the Mormon faith, this is what they believe in.

Therefore if you yourself do not believe in salvation by works, you are not subscribing to the Mormon religion.

Once anyone has received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, there is more that they can do in the way of works. The gist of the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon) is that I am saved by grace through (having completed the ultimum of) works...not of faith, lest we be unable to boast when we get into the heaven that we will receive.

Jane_Doe22 · May 8, 2020

justbyfaith said:
It seems to me that you are not following Mormonism...for in Mormonism ye are saved by grace after all that ye can do.

Simply receiving Jesus as your Lord and Saviour is not sufficient...you must work, work, work, to the end of your life before you can become a recipient of grace.

Re-interpreting the verse by saying that all that ye can do is obey John 1:12 is not Mormon teaching.

The verse in question (in the Book of Mormon) appears to me to teach salvation by works...and from what I have heard of the Mormon faith, this is what they believe in.

Therefore if you yourself do not believe in salvation by works, you are not subscribing to the Mormon religion.

Once anyone has received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, there is more that they can do in the way of works. The gist of the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon) is that I am saved by grace through (having completed the ultimum of) works...not of faith, lest we be unable to boast when we get into the heaven that we will receive.

After decades of studying it, I daresay I understand beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a little better than you

justbyfaith · May 8, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
After decades of studying it, I daresay I understand beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a little better than you

I suppose that their teaching is no longer in accordance with their documents (such as the Book of Mormon).

So what say you?

Is salvation by works in Mormonism? If not, what do they do with the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon) "ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do."

If salvation is by works in Mormonism, then it doesn't line up with biblical Christianity.

If it isn't, then they contradict by their doctrine one of the most famous verses in their book.

Enoch111 · May 8, 2020

Preacher4Truth said:
Also consider Mormons will not own up to their own documented teachings. This is a well known trait of this cult.

This is true. Even when you present the actual words of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, Mormons refuse to honestly admit that this is exactly what was said and what was meant. When you tell them that they do not just have the Holy Bible as Scripture, but include the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants as their Scriptures, they do not admit that either.

Here is what their official web site says:
"The Book of Mormon became the Church’s second standard work, alongside the Bible...

The volume, titled the Doctrine and Covenants, was published in 1835 and became the Church’s third standard work...

In 1851, while serving as president of the British Mission, Elder Franklin D. Richards of the Quorum of the Twelve compiled a selection of Church doctrines and teachings, portions of Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible, part of Joseph’s translation associated with Egyptian papyri (the book of Abraham), and extracts from Joseph Smith’s history. The volume was published as the Pearl of Great Price."

Note: The Book of Abraham presents three Gods (with capital "Gs") at creation.

Jane_Doe22 · May 8, 2020

justbyfaith said:
I suppose that their teaching is no longer in accordance with their documents (such as the Book of Mormon).

So what say you?

Is salvation by works in Mormonism? If not, what do they do with the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon) "ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do."

If salvation is by works in Mormonism, then it doesn't line up with biblical Christianity.

If it isn't, then they contradict by their doctrine one of the most famous verses in their book.

This is the false understanding: a person does something magical, they earn salvation, then grace kicks in as the person just phones in being a disciple of Christ. That's totally wrong in every way.

Correct understanding: a person hears of Christ, and hears the Holy Spirit testifying of Him. His salvation, an underserved gift of grace. Person accepts Him: giving them their everything to Him as the old sinful you dies and in reborn in Him. This acceptance is all that you can do. This person walks their walk with Christ, following Him, rejoicing in Him, and growing throughout their lifetime+.

Jane_Doe22 · May 8, 2020

Enoch111 said:
This is true. Even when you present the actual words of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, Mormons refuse to honestly admit that this is exactly what was said and what was meant.

1) Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not defined simply because so and so said something. That includes Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I'm Christ's disciple, not another persons.
2) It's really annoying how when somebody who's never eve step foot in a church service tries to "inform" you want you believe.

Enoch111 said:
When you tell them that they do not just have the Holy Bible as Scripture, but include the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants as their Scriptures, they do not admit that either.

????
That's very very clearly and upfront stated. I have no idea where this comment comes from.

Preacher4Truth · May 8, 2020

Enoch111 said:
This is true. Even when you present the actual words of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, Mormons refuse to honestly admit that this is exactly what was said and what was meant. When you tell them that they do not just have the Holy Bible as Scripture, but include the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants as their Scriptures, they do not admit that either.

Here is what their official web site says:
"The Book of Mormon became the Church’s second standard work, alongside the Bible...

The volume, titled the Doctrine and Covenants, was published in 1835 and became the Church’s third standard work...

In 1851, while serving as president of the British Mission, Elder Franklin D. Richards of the Quorum of the Twelve compiled a selection of Church doctrines and teachings, portions of Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible, part of Joseph’s translation associated with Egyptian papyri (the book of Abraham), and extracts from Joseph Smith’s history. The volume was published as the Pearl of Great Price."

Note: The Book of Abraham presents three Gods (with capital "Gs") at creation.

Yes.

Ever looked into why they don't use Joseph Smith's bible "version?"

justbyfaith · May 8, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
This is the false understanding: a person does something magical, they earn salvation, then grace kicks in as the person just phones in being a disciple of Christ. That's totally wrong in every way.

Correct understanding: a person hears of Christ, and hears the Holy Spirit testifying of Him. His salvation, an underserved gift of grace. Person accepts Him: giving them their everything to Him as the old sinful you dies and in reborn in Him. This acceptance is all that you can do. This person walks their walk with Christ, following Him, rejoicing in Him, and growing throughout their lifetime+.

It sounds like the understanding of some Mormons has evolved through teaching; while others, if they simply read the Book of Mormon at face value, will understand it to be teaching salvation by works.

It also seems to me that there might be a split among those who call themselves Mormon because of this teaching.

I like the view that "all that ye can do" is a simple surrender of faith.

However, I'm not certain that you can honestly and righteously take it that way.

Since faith and surredner is not something that we do, it is something that we become; and it is something that primarily the Lord does in us.

The word "do" to me denotes works and I think that this is how most will take it who read the verse apart from adding the teaching that "all that ye can do" refers to absolute surrender.

For there is more that I can do after that I have surrendered to God.

Jane_Doe22 · May 8, 2020

justbyfaith said:
It sounds like the understanding of some Mormons has evolved through teaching; while others, if they simply read the Book of Mormon at face value, will understand it to be teaching salvation by works.

It also seems to me that there might be a split among those who call themselves Mormon because of this teaching.

I like the view that "all that ye can do" is a simple surrender of faith.

However, I'm not certain that you can honestly and righteously take it that way.

Since faith and surredner is not something that we do, it is something that we become; and it is something that primarily the Lord does in us.

The word "do" to me denotes works and I think that this is how most will take it who read the verse apart from adding the teaching that "all that ye can do" refers to absolute surrender.

For there is more that I can do after that I have surrendered to God.

Surrendering is an action.
Having faith is an action.
Repenting is an action.
Accepting Him is an action.
Becoming is an action.
Following Him is an action.
Worshiping Him is an action.

The Christian life isn't about shallow dead faith/words, but real living moving faith wherein one gives everything to the Lord and underserving gets so much more back.

justbyfaith · May 8, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
Surrendering is an action.
Having faith is an action.
Repenting is an action.
Accepting Him is an action.
Becoming is an action.
Following Him is an action.
Worshiping Him is an action.

I would say that all of these are responses to the drawing of the Holy Spirit to Christ.

Not necessarily an action that we take, in the sense of something that we initiate.

Faith is also a state of mind rather than a work that we might do.

A question for mormons.

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