Saved Or Predestined ???

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Renniks

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Not so sir. I choose scriptures. I choose what God says in His scriptures.

Look at the case of Moses for example. His parents knew not that Moses is a chosen of God, but they did what they did by their own will and choice. Do you think that Moses survived the river by chance? Do you think that the rest that happened to him was all by chance? Or would you think that God had his hand on that, without making anyone a robot?

Do you want more of scriptures that speaks of the sovereignty of God?

Here's another for you to consider. The matter between Isaac and Ismael.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

There's more if needed. And by the way, that's scriptures speaking, not me.

Tong
R0179
I never denied God's sovereignty. Being in charge doesn't equal complete control.
 

Renniks

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God does not cause man's actions. Man's actions are his (man's) doing. But the actions that man do, are only those that can be chosen to be done by him within that which God had caused to be a reality to the man.
Of course. We don't have infinite choices. We exist within the limits God created for men. I can't flap my arms and will myself to fly. But with enough self motivation I could create a flying machine.
But when you affirm unconditional election, you erase the most important choice of all, that men can make.
 

Tong2020

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Yes, the Divine Plan begins and ends with Complete Perfection, but allows for the inevitability of evil opposition to it for which the Perfect Remedy is provided in conjunction with Divine Judgment.

Funny thing, Tong. I woke up this morning and a thought entered my mind to the effect that no-one is born physically of their own volition or choice. In other words our being in existence is completely decided without our determining whether or not it will be so. This truth is sometimes expressed negatively with the words, "Well, I didn't ask to be born."

I like the process by which, once born, we find out what we are in, and why it is the way it is.
Really? I wonder why. Well, that is the nature of birth. It is the same with regards the second birth, which is of no choice of ours, but of God.
The prohibition on eating fruit from the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good and Evil was a fair test in that it set a perfect standard for the relationship between God and man, one which is based on trust between us. It was a fair test because God warned of the consequences of breaching that trust.

Well, you could call that of the prohibition on eating fruit from the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good and Evil as a test. But I don't.

Gen. 2:15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

I understand it as more of a declaration and warning to the man of the existence of such tree and that the fruit of said tree is not good for them to eat as it would bring them certain death. A clear warning, in that God, by the commandment, obviously do not want Adam to eat of its fruit.

Further, it is not as if God put Adam in the garden to tempt him rather than warn him, for He had given him a task to do in the garden, having placed him in the garden, to tend and keep it. Remember, God does not tempt anyone to do evil (James 1:13).

Tong
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Tong2020

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I never denied God's sovereignty. Being in charge doesn't equal complete control.
It just came to mind just now, having read my post to you about the son of the bondwoman, that the sovereignty of God again struck me and made me realized yet again, who I am in relation to Him. A sovereignty such as to decree "the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman".

I am not saying that you deny God's sovereignty. What I said to you in one of my post is that "You seem to strip God of having a determined will as the Sovereign Creator, just because of man's "free will". You apparently take man's "free will" as big as God's sovereignty, if not, even have more power in a sense, or somehow diminish God's sovereignty over him.

Renniks: Being in charge doesn't equal complete control.

It seems by that, that you don't see God as having complete control of His creation, thus believe not that He is in control. But does not scriptures teach us that God sustains all things? For even the tiny sparrow won't fall apart from God's will. God controls all things. If you can't believe that because perhaps of the idea of man's "free will", do you rather believe that God is not in control of all creation? That would be unimaginable, at least in my mind, if God is not in control of all things. What chaos would that be? Unimaginable disorder to the highest degree! And if God is not in control, then who is?

Perhaps you can explain to us what is being in charge and what is in complete control.

Tong
R0185

 

Renniks

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I am not saying that you deny God's sovereignty. What I said to you in one of my post is that "You seem to strip God of having a determined will as the Sovereign Creator, just because of man's "free will". You apparently take man's "free will" as big as God's sovereignty, if not, even have more power in a sense, or somehow diminish God's sovereignty over him.
Of course I don't take man s will to be equal with God's will. God gives men a bit of dominion while he has ultimate dominion.
 

Renniks

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seems by that, that you don't see God as having complete control of His creation, thus believe not that He is in control. But does not scriptures teach us that God sustains all things? For even the tiny sparrow won't fall apart from God's will. God controls all things. If you can't believe that because perhaps of the idea of man's "free will", do you rather believe that God is not in control of all creation? That would be unimaginable, at least in my mind, if God is not in control of all things. What chaos would that be? Unimaginable disorder to the highest degree! And if God is not in control, then who is?
God controls all things? Really? Does God control all of men's evil actions and thoughts? If I control someone, thier actions are actually my actions. If God meticulously controls everything, then he is the only sinner, and we are merely puppets whose strings he pulls. If I control my computer, completely, everything that comes out of it is only what I put in and moreso with God, because he could control every brain cell and make me only think his thoughts. But he doesn't. And you know how I know? Because I'm not capable of being perfect, as I would be if a totally Holy God controlled every fiber of my being.
Claiming God is meticulously controlling a world filled with evil leaves you with an evil God.
 

Tong2020

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Of course. We don't have infinite choices. We exist within the limits God created for men. I can't flap my arms and will myself to fly. But with enough self motivation I could create a flying machine.
But when you affirm unconditional election, you erase the most important choice of all, that men can make.
It's good to know that you at least acknowledge that man gets to choose only as what choices or opportunities of choosing God had caused to be possible and available to him in his lifetime.

I thought I told you already in one of my post. Here, let me quote, "Election is based not from anything outside of God." In that sense, it is conditional, in relation to what is inherent in God, His Divine nature. In another sense, it is unconditional, if in relation to what is outside of God, such as from the doings of man. And that does not at all have God taking away the elects' "free will" or making the choice. For even in Paul's case, Paul still had made the choice to believe Jesus Christ, while scriptures clearly testify that God had sovereignly chosen him. If you'll look at it, Paul was yet an unbeliever, even literally, in words and deeds, the enemy of Christ. Paul did not choose Jesus so that Jesus chose him. Apparently, it's the other way around. Now, would the Lord's purpose in him be accomplished if he chose not to believe? Would the Lord had failed or made a mistake in choosing Paul if Paul chose not to believe? Should God had left Paul as he was, doing what he was doing, what do you think became of Paul and of the many who came to be converted through his ministry?

Tong
R0186
 

Tong2020

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Of course I don't take man s will to be equal with God's will. God gives men a bit of dominion while he has ultimate dominion.
But while you say that, you seem to give us the impression that God cannot elect you to be among His people, if you don't allow Him by the power of your "free will", or if you don't love and choose him first, and that even while, scriptures says that it is God who choose first and He is the one who love first.

Did you not choose God because you love Him? But should that be the case, here's the truth: you love him because He first love you.

Tong
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Stumpmaster

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It is the same with regards the second birth, which is of no choice of ours, but of God.
Indeed He is the Author of our Salvation...His Plan to Save us...His Man to Save us...We Can but obey!
Heb 5:9
And having been perfected, He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
 

Tong2020

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God controls all things? Really? Does God control all of men's evil actions and thoughts? If I control someone, thier actions are actually my actions. If God meticulously controls everything, then he is the only sinner, and we are merely puppets whose strings he pulls. If I control my computer, completely, everything that comes out of it is only what I put in and moreso with God, because he could control every brain cell and make me only think his thoughts. But he doesn't. And you know how I know? Because I'm not capable of being perfect, as I would be if a totally Holy God controlled every fiber of my being.
Claiming God is meticulously controlling a world filled with evil leaves you with an evil God.
As I said in my previous post, perhaps you can explain to us what is being in charge and what is in complete control. Because, it seems we have a different take on that. And so that we mean the same thing when we speak of being in charge and being in control, that i ask you to explain what you meant by those phrases in your post.

But since you ignored that and so here we are, perhaps conversing with each other but speaking on different plains or level or frequency. Well, I have no choice but to go on and just try to address what you say there.

What you say there is in man's point of view. But God is not a man. His thoughts are far far farther than the heavens very different and greater than man's thoughts. Perhaps reading Job 37, 38 & 39 would be good to somehow set the tone in dealing with this subject. Control, in man's mind is limited to what his mind is capable of thinking of how it is that control all of His creation, from the simplest thing to the most complex of His creation. The systems that man discovers that governs the created world, including that concerning the human body, are just among the many and various ways wherein God, in my thinking, controls and sustains His creation.

Now with regards your issue on God's control over man, you asked "Does God control all of men's evil actions and thoughts?". Where man's choice is involved, needless to say, God had given that part to man. God let's the man choose. God's control comes in, not in the making of the choice, but in the choices that He causes and allows to be encountered by each man.

Tong
R0188
 

Renniks

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It's good to know that you at least acknowledge that man gets to choose only as what choices or opportunities of choosing God had caused to be possible and available to him in his lifetime.

I thought I told you already in one of my post. Here, let me quote, "Election is based not from anything outside of God." In that sense, it is conditional, in relation to what is inherent in God, His Divine nature. In another sense, it is unconditional, if in relation to what is outside of God, such as from the doings of man. And that does not at all have God taking away the elects' "free will" or making the choice. For even in Paul's case, Paul still had made the choice to believe Jesus Christ, while scriptures clearly testify that God had sovereignly chosen him. If you'll look at it, Paul was yet an unbeliever, even literally, in words and deeds, the enemy of Christ. Paul did not choose Jesus so that Jesus chose him. Apparently, it's the other way around. Now, would the Lord's purpose in him be accomplished if he chose not to believe? Would the Lord had failed or made a mistake in choosing Paul if Paul chose not to believe? Should God had left Paul as he was, doing what he was doing, what do you think became of Paul and of the many who came to be converted through his ministry?

Tong
R0186
You complicate the simple. Jesus chose Paul for a job because he knew Paul was the right man for that job. He knew that Paul would convert, but Paul still had the choice. That's not what unconditional election is. UE is choosing people for salvation (not for a certain job and bypassing others, therefore giving them no hope of ever receiving eternal life through no fault of their own.
 

Renniks

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But while you say that, you seem to give us the impression that God cannot elect you to be among His people, if you don't allow Him by the power of your "free will", or if you don't love and choose him first, and that even while, scriptures says that it is God who choose first and He is the one who love first.

Did you not choose God because you love Him? But should that be the case, here's the truth: you love him because He first love you.

Tong
R0187
Sure, we love him because he first loved us- but he loves all people and that's what you are not getting. In your system he loves some and hates others for no discernable reason.
 

Renniks

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What you say there is in man's point of view. But God is not a man. His thoughts are far far farther than the heavens very different and greater than man's thoughts. Perhaps reading Job 37, 38 & 39 would be good to somehow set the tone in dealing with this subject. Control, in man's mind is limited to what his mind is capable of thinking of how it is that control all of His creation, from the simplest thing to the most complex of His creation. The systems that man discovers that governs the created world, including that concerning the human body, are just among the many and various ways wherein God, in my thinking, controls and sustains His creation.

Now with regards your issue on God's control over man, you asked "Does God control all of men's evil actions and thoughts?". Where man's choice is involved, needless to say, God had given that part to man. God let's the man choose. God's control comes in, not in the making of the choice, but in the choices that He causes and allows to be encountered by each man.

Job 37 speaks of God being Lord over creation. I'm not sure how that applies to God controlling men's actions or thoughts. And your last paragraph is self-contradictory. That isn't complete control. To merely give men choices doesn't control the choices they make. You need to make up your mind because like most Calvinists you are resorting to doublespeak. They always, always try to squirm around this question. If God is only giving me a choice between two options, I am still sovereign in some sense over my choices. To be in complete control, God would have to actively choose every firing on every neuron in my brain, so that I only thought exactly what he caused me to think. anything less is not complete control.
 

Tong2020

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You complicate the simple. Jesus chose Paul for a job because he knew Paul was the right man for that job. He knew that Paul would convert, but Paul still had the choice. That's not what unconditional election is. UE is choosing people for salvation (not for a certain job and bypassing others, therefore giving them no hope of ever receiving eternal life through no fault of their own.
No sir. Am not complicating things at all.

Yes Jesus chose Paul for a job. But for Paul to be perfect for the job, Jesus had to convert him first, which He did. How Jesus did that is that which most Christians do not see, and instead put that behind and look at Paul's "free will", his choosing to believe in Jesus Christ. As I said, if Jesus left him be with, Paul would be far from being saved.

Again, you hold on and resort to the Jesus chose Paul because He knew Paul would convert argument. It just isn't that way. And never did any of the apostles, not Paul even, testified that they were chosen by God because God knew that they will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, Paul did not believe the gospel, and took that even further as taking it heretical with respect to Judaism, as to even, with zeal, persecute the church. It took a miracle at the Damascus road involving Paul himself, for Jesus to save Paul. Regarding the apostles, try to see Thomas. He did not believe that Jesus Christ had risen from the dead. If Jesus had not shown Himself to him, Thomas would not have believed. The Christian should really set their eyes on God, how He works out that those whom He had chosen will believe the gospel, rather than setting their eyes on the believing of the chosen. Many Christians really are still looking at the man, when they should be looking at the Lord Jesus Christ.

What were the apostles chosen for? I contend that they were chosen for salvation and were called for ministry. What were the Christians chosen for? I contend that they were chosen for salvation and were all called for ministry as well.

Renniks, I have a couple of questions for you, and even to those who would like to give their answer: Is there any heart too hard for God that He could not convict, convince, and convert? Would God run out of ways to convict, convince, and convert the sinner?

Tong
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Tong2020

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Sure, we love him because he first loved us- but he loves all people and that's what you are not getting. In your system he loves some and hates others for no discernable reason.

Now, concerning the love of God, that is for another topic. If you want for us to discuss that, I suggest you start a separate thread for that, for that would be a lot of writing.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Job 37 speaks of God being Lord over creation. I'm not sure how that applies to God controlling men's actions or thoughts. And your last paragraph is self-contradictory. That isn't complete control. To merely give men choices doesn't control the choices they make. You need to make up your mind because like most Calvinists you are resorting to doublespeak. They always, always try to squirm around this question. If God is only giving me a choice between two options, I am still sovereign in some sense over my choices. To be in complete control, God would have to actively choose every firing on every neuron in my brain, so that I only thought exactly what he caused me to think. anything less is not complete control.
Of course Job 37 isn't about God controlling men's actions or thoughts. I never said anything like that about God. Job 37, 38, 39 gives you an idea of God being the creator and sustainer of creation.

You said "To merely give men choices doesn't control the choices they make." Of course God does not control the choices man makes. As I said, it is man who makes the choice not God. But what choices they have are only those that is made available to them. If for example when the gospel is preached to a person, but did not give him understanding of it, he does not get to really make a choice to believe it.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, I am not a Calvinist, I am a Christian. I follow Christ, not Calvin. I believe the teachings and doctrines of Christ, not the doctrines of Calvin.

You said "If God is only giving me a choice between two options, I am still sovereign in some sense over my choices." Of course it is you who decides. But as I said, what choices you have are only those that is made available to you by God.

So now you define what you mean when you said "complete control". That God would have to actively choose every firing on every neuron in my brain, so that I only thought exactly what he caused me to think. anything less is not complete control.

If that is your definition of "complete control" then we do have a different definition. And I don't think we can have a sensible exchange regarding that then. But based on your definition, God does not think for you. So, in that sense, and by your definition, then God is not in "complete control".

How about your definition of "in charge:?

Tong
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Renniks

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Renniks, I have a couple of questions for you, and even to those who would like to give their answer: Is there any heart too hard for God that He could not convict, convince, and convert? Would God run out of ways to convict, convince, and convert the sinner?
I believe some people are beyond conversion because they have blasphemed the Spirit, that is, rejected him totally.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.

It's ironic that you would ask this question, tho. Because in your scheme, God simply does not want to convert the majority of people.