The Olivet Discourse

Timtofly said:

I asked for a verse in Revelation that mentioned a big A antichrist. Without twisting the words to fit a pre-made antichrist. I have pointed out to several that there is only the False Prophet and Satan. Satan is the dragon that stands on the seashore. Remains on the land in history, and then presents himself as a human with two horns like a lamb, and the voice of a dragon. No one is willing to see that is still Satan the deciever. There are those who know, but if they say, they may be martyred for doing so. They value temporary life over death of a finite body. Disobedience over trusting God. They do not fear God who can destroy both soul and body. They desire the praise of those who can only destroy this body. If they are truly children of God, the church, they would gladly be sent home, to heaven and the Father, instead of clinging to the filth of this world. There are enough lies these days, and a little truth could go a long ways.

So you gave your answer, now can you explain the confusion between calling the false prophet an antichrist in Daniel? Both Satan and the false prophet are Antichrists. But there can only be one Satan and one false prophet. Remember that Revelation says one recovers from a mortal wound. Resurrection or re-incarnation?

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I don't know why you accuse those who disagree with your interpretation as some kind of "fallen Christian?" Do you really think you hold the ace to every biblical interpretation, and that if another Christian rejects your interpretation for his own that he is somehow less than Christian?

Do you really think that only those who "know Satan is the Antichrist" somehow have an edge on Christian spirituality? How manipulative is that? We should be humble enough to admit that we don't have all our facts right, and reasonable enough to let others draw their own conclusions.

I don't see *anywhere* in Scriptures that Satan is called the Antichrist. The Antichrist has several names, and none of them is "Satan." The Scriptures indicate that Satan gives power to the Antichrist, but that would imply then that Satan and the Antichrist are separate persons.

Antichrist is also called the Beast, the Man of Lawlessness, and the Little Horn. But he is not called "Satan." That is your interpretation, and having your interpretation does not make you more spiritual than any other Christian, or less materialistic.

Rejecting your view is not persecuting you, brother. Christian brothers should be able to disagree agreeably. I don't hate you because you think Satan is the Antichrist. You believe that, and that's fine, even though I don't believe the Bible teaches that. I trust that you're being honest, and trying to be reasonable.

I'm not manipulating facts when I state my own facts. I'm also trying to be reasonable, and to honestly state my views. What else are you asking for, that I dishonestly state you're right?

So again, I believe THE Antichrist (with a big "A") is in 1 John, and derives, in John's mind, from Dan 7, where the Little Horn is viewed as opposing God's Kingdom, the Messianic Kingdom, and God's People, the Saints. This conception that the Little Horn is against the Son of Man and God's Kingdom causes John to identify him as the Antichrist. He is anti-Messiah. He is anti-Kingdom of the Messiah.

None of this is manipulating anything. It is a fact, in my thinking, that the whole idea of the Antichrist originates in Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from the clouds and the Little Horn is defeated, after persecuting God's People. He is, quite obviously, the "Antichrist."

Timtofly said:

So you gave your answer, now can you explain the confusion between calling the false prophet an antichrist in Daniel? Both Satan and the false prophet are Antichrists. But there can only be one Satan and one false prophet. Remember that Revelation says one recovers from a mortal wound. Resurrection or re-incarnation?

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I thought I would try to answer this question separately. And it's a good question, and deserves to be asked, apart from other issues that may confuse it. We read in Revelation that the Beast and the False Prophet were two separate persons.

Rev 19.20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

I do not yet see a basis for this 2nd figure in Rev 13 except that we know from Dan 7 that the Little Horn is boastful and opposes the Messianic Kingdom. And so, it is likely that in order to take over Christian Civilization he take it over, establishing his own religion.

We know that Dan 2 and Dan 7 both depict a 4th Empire to rise, which many believe to be the Roman Empire. And this Empire had 2 legs. The False Prophet is also a beast with 2 horns. And so, this may show a correlation here, that the 2 legs of the Roman Empire are taken over by the religion of Antichrist's False Prophet.

Randy Kluth said:

I thought I would try to answer this question separately. And it's a good question, and deserves to be asked, apart from other issues that may confuse it. We read in Revelation that the Beast and the False Prophet were two separate persons.

Rev 19.20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

I do not yet see a basis for this 2nd figure in Rev 13 except that we know from Dan 7 that the Little Horn is boastful and opposes the Messianic Kingdom. And so, it is likely that in order to take over Christian Civilization he take it over, establishing his own religion.

We know that Dan 2 and Dan 7 both depict a 4th Empire to rise, which many believe to be the Roman Empire. And this Empire had 2 legs. The False Prophet is also a beast with 2 horns. And so, this may show a correlation here, that the 2 legs of the Roman Empire are taken over by the religion of Antichrist's False Prophet.

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The beast and the false prophet are not human entities. They are fallen wicked heavenly hosts that have rebelled against God with Satan.

While ever you claim that the beasts and the false prophet, i.e. the Little Horn, are human, you present a very flawed picture of who and what the entities of the Beasts and The False Prophet are. These entities are spiritual entities, not human entities.

Shalom

Keraz said:

Questions and Answers:

Christian believers are at odds with one another. We all read the Bible and keep the Commandments. Why do we understand the Prophesies so differently?

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Differences give opportunity for the truth to come out.

Keraz said:

My approach is to read the prophesies literally, unless they are obviously metaphorical; describing something not known in ancient times, but what is possible to figure out from our modern knowledge.
I am also a history buff, so I know what has happened and what remains to be fulfilled.

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Ancient writings need to be understood from how they used language--not how modern people would twist their words. But I do think the purpose is to identify modern history as they fulfill those ancient prophecies.

Keraz said:

As for the Jewish State of Israel, the whole concept and realization of that entity is a Satanic construct. Jesus said it would happen, Matthew 24:32, but He never said it was from God.
The Zionist Congress, headed by Theodore Hertzel, were all, or mostly atheists and their country of Israel was founded on communist principals. Today it is a secular state, run just as every other democracy, with many religions having a say in State politics. Judaism with its denial of Jesus is no better than Islam.

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I think it is very misleading to suggest that a non-Christian state is a "Satanic construct." In ignorance people are indeed oppressed under the power and deception of Satan. But to suggest the secular state is "evil," simply because it is under the influence of evil, goes too far, in my thinking. Paul said that even the ancient Roman State had some good in it, rewarding the good and punishing the evil.

Keraz said:

But what really astounds me, is how people ignore the many prophesies that clearly state the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. Which will happen at the Sixth Seal, the next prophesied event. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Hosea 4:3
Isaiah 22:1-14; is one of the best prophesies about this forthcoming Day. It describes how they rush about, terrified; as they see their doom approaching. Ezekiel 7:14-20, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 25:30-38
What will trigger the Lord to act on His terrible Day of fiery wrath, is told us in Isaiah 22:6, where Iran and all the Islamic entities will commence an attack onto the holy Land, something that is only possible now, using nuke missiles, as Psalms 7:12-16 and Psalms 83 tell us, with the result of their actions.

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You say that people ignore the "6th Seal" when in reality they are only ignoring *your interpretation* of that prophecy! This is not rejecting God's word, brother! Your interpretation may be false. To reject you is not to reject God!

You are here conflating 2 separate things, and then acting like people should automatically view them together, even though there is not evidence in the text that they belong together. Where, for example, do we see the 6th Seal as being about an attack on the Holy Land with nuclear missiles? Even if this does happen, it is certainly not obvious from how the 6th seal itself is presented.

Keraz said:

This scenario will happen; it is what the Bible says. If we reject it, then what else of the Bible is wrong and can we trust it for anything?

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You saw the Bible says this will happen, and yet as I said, it is not even there in the description of the 6th Seal. And yet we are told not to add to the revelation of this book!

There may be other passages that indicate something like this. But let's not pretend it is in the 6th seal.

The fact is, in the very next passage we are told that Israel is sealed against the Day of God's Wrath. So this seems to say the exact opposite of what you are saying the Bible says. Why should we believe you when the Bible says the exact opposite?

Rev 7.2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Keraz said:

I have received inspiration and a vision from the Lord. It happened to me, when my wife and I lived for 3 months in Israel.
He made it possible for me to understand His plans for the world and for my future. My task now, is to point out the prophesies about the end times.

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You need to judge your visions and inspiration against the Scriptures, and not try to conform the Scriptures to your visions!

Keraz said:

Some people say they have been fulfilled, but the historical record and the Bible prophesies do not match. Any prophesy that is not recorded as having occurred, will occur: sooner or later. Allegories and metaphors are word pictures of the real thing.

I was brought up in the Methodist Church. I was never taught anything about prophecy or the Jews. As I said, we lived among them and they are just like normal people everywhere.
I totally reject the accusation that I have any bias against the Jews.

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You clearly have bias against the Jews. You reject the Jewish Hope, which to me is plainly stated in the OT Prophets, and also in the NT Scriptures. For example, we have Acts 1.6-7. There, Jesus focused on the more immediate need to preach the Gospel to other nations, along with Israel. But never did Jesus deny the eventual restoration of national Israel.

Keraz said:

As is so comprehensively prophesied, the entire Middle East will be virtually depopulated in the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17

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By contrast, the Jewish Hope, as stated in the Prophets, proclaim that in the end Israel will be restored, never to fall again, never to be tormented by the nations again. You just add to their torment by your barring them from their promised restoration.

I couldn't agree more that many Jews will be disqualified from this restoration. Many Jews in Judaism will be rejected because they are hardened and resistant to Christian conversion. Only those who embrace Christ as redeemer will be redeemed. But their present state as unbelievers does not prevent their conversion--not anymore than any pagan cannot be converted simply because he or she is a pagan!

Keraz said:

Isaiah 29:1-4 says it very well and tells us that just a few, possibly a thousand or so, will survive by hiding underground. That remnant will be joined by their Christian brethren and all will live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-27

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Yes, only a remnant of Israel will survive, but it will be a *nation* that will survive, and not just a small group of people. The many who survive at Christ's Coming will convert to Christianity. Some, of course, will be destroyed in the Battle of Armageddon, or in other conflicts.

Keraz said:

The belief of a general Jewish Redemption, is an immutable tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Just as there is no scriptural evidence of God taking the Church to heaven, nowhere is it said that the Jews will have any prominence in the end times or later. Both ideas are false teachings.

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This has been disproven repeatedly. It is the historic position of the Christian Church that the dead and living will be caught up to heaven to be transformed into immortality. This takes place within a single second, leading to our descent with Christ to the earth in some kind of heavenly revelation. Your view is aberrant, and does not, I believe, meet the historical test. If you alone are teaching this, that makes you a lone prophet, not to be believed.

Keraz said:

Another way of viewing the Jewish State of Israel, is they constitute the visible 'Israel'. The Satanic hatred of the sons of Ishmael is directed toward the Jews, rather than toward the real Israelites of God, the Christian peoples of every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

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This is Replacement Theology, or Covenant Theology. It is time-honored, but in view of Israel's recent restoration as a nation, the possibility of Israel returning to God as a nation seems to be a real possibility. Israel is therefore *not* the international Church. Wrong definition.

Keraz said:

The amazing Plans of God, beyond our human comprehension; are working toward His ultimate goal: to obtain a people who have freely chosen to believe in Him and to be with Him for Eternity.
We have quite a way to go yet, some very hard times of testing and the proving of our faith, as many have done before us.
But great and wonderful are the Blessings and rewards promised to those who hold fast to their faith and trust unconditionally in His protection.

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You separate yourself from the stream of historic Christianity. Methodism has become very weak in recent times, and has not trained its sons well.

Keraz said:

I am no longer a Methodist. I now attend an Elim Church.
They too, have nothing to do with Bible prophecy, but it is good worship and fellowship.

As for the rest of your comments and disagreements, we will soon see who had it right.
Actually, I do not consider it possible for anyone to 'know it all', basically we will only understand after its all over. Isaiah 35:4-5, 32:3-4

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Fair enough. Yes, I've been in churches all my life that do not agree with a major part of what I believe. Oh well. Jesus came not for the well, but for the sick, right?

Randy Kluth said:

So John used Antichrist whereas Paul used Man of Sin, and the Revelation used the Beast. They all came from the same .

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I agree that the Antichrist is the beast power in Daniel and Revelation. In Daniel the beasts appear one after the other and in Revelation they are a single unified power indicating a single Antichrist (false christ) and other smaller (false prophets).

Jay Ross said:

The beast and the false prophet are not human entities. They are fallen wicked heavenly hosts that have rebelled against God with Satan.

While ever you claim that the beasts and the false prophet, i.e. the Little Horn, are human, you present a very flawed picture of who and what the entities of the Beasts and The False Prophet are. These entities are spiritual entities, not human entities.

Shalom

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I agree with this however the beasts are likely demonic forces and the horns they control are likely human forces or leaders of nations. Interestingly there are seven heads to the beast and seven major world religions indicating the beasts are religious in nature not ancient nations that turned to dust thousands of years ago.

Malihah said:

I agree that the Antichrist is the beast power in Daniel and Revelation. In Daniel the beasts appear one after the other and in Revelation they are a single unified power indicating a single Antichrist (false christ) and other smaller (false prophets).

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Yea, I like that explanation. It is still a single Antichrist, or Beast Empire, because the False Prophet stands with the Beast Empire.

I believe that in the Revelation the Beast is used in 2 ways--1 as a man--the Antichrist, and 1 as an empire, over which the Antichrist rules. So the Beast comprises a number of elements, only 1 of which is the Antichrist himself.

He has 7 kings with him, and 10 states, I believe. And so, the Antichristian Empire is more than a single entity--more than just the Antichrist himself. Rather, he is the leader--the Antichrist, his cohorts--the 7 kings, and the False Prophet, who himself has 2 horns, or states. They all together comprise the Antichristian Empire. Antichrist is just the leader, and there is only one of them--just a single emperor.

Anyone who can see apocalyptic prophecy in AD times instead of BC times is alright with me.