What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?

amadeus · May 11, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Truth.

Yet it is also not wise to resist the increase that the Lord (God) wants to produce in you simply because the exhortation is coming from one of His servants (whom you may happen to not like).

Why would think that I do not like you? That is certainly a misconception on your part.

Part of the problem certainly is that you do not understand what I believe. If you did understand you still might disagree with me, but your are trying to pressure me as you have pressured others here to accept what you believe. That simply wastes time for both of us.

DNB · May 11, 2020

APAK said:
Something to seriously consider:

Most people cannot handle the truth, whether of this world or of spiritual things of YHWH. Many who fear it are part of a grand spiritual deception. It never ends. Duped, persuaded and deceived by false teachers for many years, ingrained into their minds and hearts of fables and pagan theories and devices, they never grow in spirit. Their reason for scripture is not for understanding and the love of YHWH and his Son. It is used to force, support and promote their false pagan beliefs into scripture, to change and corrupt its meaning in many areas. Ultimately, it is used to mock the Father and the Son. Do they really and truly believe that the Father of all creation created and brought a human Son into this world for our benefit and our own glory, for his own glory? Or do they neutralize, dismiss and trivialize this plan of salvation in favor of a Son that was also God himself? One is a Christian, the other opposes Christ (anti-Christian).

Peace and truth,

APAK

That's right, a theology as incomprehensible, and ultimately implausible, as it is, can only lead to offense to God. There are too many absurdities in trinitarian soteriology and Christology, that it indicts God on so many levels. That even if it were possible that an anti-trinitarian were incorrect, they would be exonerated for their reverence of the soundness and wisdom of God's ontology and Word, by refusing to accept such a radically peculiar and contradictory doctrine.

JBF is showing a great deal of audacity and ignorance by assuming his orthodoxy. His impetuousness to charge a non-trinitarian with heresy, by immediately doing so in his first post, clearly incriminates him. It's always the first that redundantly, makes the appeal to the ultimate objective i.e. rightly dividing the Word of God, that is typically defenseless, biased and lacks judgement.

justbyfaith · May 11, 2020

amadeus said:
Why would think that I do not like you? That is certainly a misconception on your part.

Part of the problem certainly is that you do not understand what I believe. If you did understand you still might disagree with me, but your are trying to pressure me as you have pressured others here to accept what you believe. That simply wastes time for both of us.

I suppose that I am going about it the wrong way. But it is only because I care.

I suppose that if I didn't care, my methods would be more acceptable to everyone.

justbyfaith · May 11, 2020

DNB said:
That's right, a theology as incomprehensible, and ultimately implausible, as it is, can only lead to offense to God. There are too many absurdities in trinitarian soteriology and Christology, that it indicts God on so many levels. That even if it were possible that an anti-trinitarian were incorrect, we would be exonerated for our reverence of the soundness and wisdom of God's ontology and Word, by refusing to accept such a radically peculiar and contradictory doctrine.

JBF is showing a great deal of audacity and ignorance by assuming his orthodoxy. His impetuousness to charge a non-trinitarian with heresy, by immediately doing so in his first post, clearly incriminates him. It's always the first that makes the appeal to the ultimate objective i.e. rightly dividing the Word of God, that is typically defenseless, biased and lacks judgement.

May the Lord abundantly bless you, my friend.

2 Corinthians 4

amadeus · May 11, 2020

justbyfaith said:
If our theology or belief system is wrong, our heart cannot be right.

How did you decide this? Do you not believe it is necessary to grow?

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" Luke 2:52

Do you not believe that you have two things trying to grow within you and that they struggle?

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

Jacob versus Esau in their mother's womb!

It is faith in the real Jesus that gives access to the Holy Spirit.

And how is it that you have known who the real Jesus is? How did Saul/Paul know that it was Jesus on the road to Damascus? Why did the two disciples on the road to Emmaus not recognize Jesus as they walked along with Him?

justbyfaith · May 11, 2020

Praying for you also, @DNB.

amadeus · May 11, 2020

Renniks said:
Which was my point. You can not have your heart right with him if you are wrong about who he is. No relationship can work that way.

Consider the infant who is held in his natural father's arms for the first time. What kind of relationship is this until they get to know one another? The father knows, but what does the child know?

justbyfaith · May 11, 2020

@amadeus, my point is based in Galatians 3:14.

justbyfaith · May 11, 2020

amadeus said:
Consider the infant who is held in his natural father's arms for the first time. What kind of relationship is this until they get to know one another? The father knows, but what does the child know?

The child knows instinctively that he is in the arms of his father.

DNB · May 11, 2020

Enoch111 said:
What is really intellectually dishonest is to refuse to accept what is actually there in Scripture, regardless of everything else.

But that is not what the Jehovah's Witnesses did. They actually made Christ into a lesser "god", which is utterly dishonest and foolish. See their New World Translation.

But when anyone opens their Bible to John chapter one, they do not have to look at any Lexicon or Grammar or anything else. The words are plain as day.

JOHN 1: JESUS IS GOD THE WORD WHO BECAME A MAN

THE WORD IS ETERNAL
In the beginning was the Word...
THE WORD WAS WITH GOD THE FATHER
...and the Word was with God...
THE WORD WAS IN FACT GOD
and the Word was God.
THE WORD AND THE FATHER ARE ETERNAL
The same was in the beginning with God.
THE WORD IS THE CREATOR
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
THE WORD IS ETERNAL LIFE AND THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
DARKNESS CANNOT OVERCOME DIVINE LIGHT
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not....
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world...
THE WORD BECAME A MAN AND DWELT AMONG MEN
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
THE WORD IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
...and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

We know from the rest of the Bible, that the only begotten Son of God is the Lord Jesus Christ, who is also the Word of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, therefore He Himself is God. And He declared that He is "I AM" (the name of God). He appeared to men in the OT as the Angel of the LORD, but at the same time declared that He is "I AM THAT I AM", the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

This post is for others to read, I do not anticipate a reasonable or competent response from Enoch111 on this!

You are extremely shallow in your understanding of Scripture. Anyone with wisdom and discernment, who opens their Bible to John chapter one, immediately recognizes the literary convention that is being employed there. It is called antanaclasis. Although one may not be familiar with the term itself, the literary device is perceived by the more insightful, right away.
You have made so many assumptions in your above statements, that you discredit your credibility as being objective, and exegetically competent.
There is nothing divine about the expression 'I am that I am', or any of its variations. It is the principle behind the statement that establishes its holiness. Thus, Jesus remarking '...before Abraham was, I am..' to Jews that considered Abraham as their forefather and patriarch of their faith, contextually or not, does not necessitate or even imply him to be declaring deity at any possible level. But rather, and without exception, he is affirming his pre-eminence.

Angelina · May 11, 2020

So then, do you believe that the promise in Philippians, that He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ, (Philippians 1:6), does not apply to anyone today but only applies to the saints at Philippi in Paul's day?

The Church in Philippi offered Paul a variety of support for his ministry more than any other church at the time. He expressed his appreciation and love toward them by encouraging them to continue to walk in faith, in the joy of the Lord and the unity of the brotherhood.

I am going to use the amplified bible in this instance because I want it to be seen clearly for what this verse is saying starting from verse 5-8

5 [thanking God] for your participation and partnership [both your comforting fellowship and gracious contributions] in [advancing] the good news [regarding salvation] from the first day [you heard it] until now. 6 I am convinced and confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will [continue to] perfect and complete it until the day of Christ Jesus [the time of His return]. 7 It is right for me to feel this way about you, because [you have me in your heart as] I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the good news [regarding salvation], all of you share in [His matchless] grace with me. 8 For God is my witness, how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus [whose great love fills me]

It is clear he is speaking to this church. [Body of believers] Verse 9 emphasises his love toward them as much as they have toward him even when he was imprisoned and in preaching the good news of salvation. Verse 8 really exemplifies that.

You can apply this to us today for sure but remember that Paul in Philippians 1:6 was talking to the church at Philippi. In John 8:24 Jesus was talking to the religious leaders of the day. You have to be careful in trying to marry Paul's love and encouragement for the Church at Philippi with John 8:24 where Jesus is speaking to the Religious Leaders of the day and trying to connect that with the gentiles and then applying both verses to all believers.. Replacement theology is a very dangerous slippery slope.

However, what God has done before, he can do again Hebrews 13:8

Enoch111 · May 11, 2020

APAK said:
Most people cannot handle the truth, whether of this world or of spiritual things of YHWH.

Let's see if you can handle this:

As we study the Old Testament, we find that there is one very special angel who appears to men, generally in connection with a crisis or a critical revelation.

He is called “the Angel of the LORD” or literally “the Angel of YHWH (Yahweh). This Angel is mentioned 49 times in the Old Testament, and is also called “the Angel of His presence” (once in Isaiah 63:9) and “mine Angel” (twice, in Exodus 23:23 and 32:34). He is also called “the Angel of the Covenant”, translated as “the Messenger of the Covenant” in Malachi 3:1. That is a reference to Christ as the Messenger of the New Covenant.

It has been recognized by all who have examined the appearance of this Angel as well as His words, that He is none other than the pre-incarnate Christ – a Theophany or a Christophany before Christ came to earth as Jesus of Nazareth (God manifest in the flesh). Since no man has seen God the Father at any time, and the Holy Spirit is invisible, it is the Son of God (or God the Son) who appeared to men in angelic form.

HAGAR
Surprisingly enough, the Angel of the LORD first appeared to Sarah’s servant Hagar (Gen 16:7-16), when she fled from Sarah, who was dealing harshly with her because she conceived Ishmael while Sarah remained barren. And even more surprising is the fact that Hagar recognized that God had visited her: And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after Him that seeth me? (Gen 16:13)

ABRAHAM
While Christ had appeared to Abraham as the Word of God earlier, He appeared to Abraham as the Angel of the LORD at the time Isaac was about to be sacrificed (Gen 22:11-19). Firstly, the Angel stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac. Abraham immediately recognized Him as Jehovah and called the place Jehovah Jireh (the LORD will provide) when he saw a ram provided for the sacrifice: And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen [provided]. (Gen 22:14) But then the Angel spoke plainly as God (the LORD or Yahweh), and blessed Abraham ,while adding to the Abrahamic Covenant, and actually adding Christ as the “Seed” of Abraham at this time.

MOSES
The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses at the burning bush. It is here that He plainly disclosed that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that His name was “I AM THAT I AM” or “I AM”. Jesus identified Himself as God by telling the Jews that “Before Abraham was I AM”. This passage in Exodus 3:1-23 is extremely significant in many ways, and should be carefully studied.

BALAAM
Balam was a hireling prophet who was prepared to serve the enemies of Israel, and even curse Israel on behalf of Balak, king of Moab (while the Israelites were traveling to Canaan). Even though God eventually gave Balaam permission to go to Balak, He was very angry with Balaam, and appeared as the Angel of the LORD to kill him (Numbers 22:21-35). Balaam’s donkey managed to protect him, and then the Angel of the LORD gave Balaam permission with specific conditions attached. In the end Balaam blessed Israel instead of cursing them. In this passage, the Angel of the LORD is mentioned ten times.

JUDGES
In the book of Judges, the Angel of the LORD is mentioned twelve times. He also appeared to Joshua before the battle of Jericho (in the book of Joshua), but was not identified as such. He identified Himself as the Captain of the LORD’s hosts (Joshua 5:13-15)

1. He appeared to the disobedient Israelites just before the death of Joshua (Judges 2:1-9). He warned them that there would be dire consequences for disobedience, and we see this throughout the book of Judges.

2. The Angel of the LORD is mentioned in Judges 5:23 (the Song of Deborah) as the one who said: Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty. Meroz is a town in northern Palestine, and because its inhabitants did not help the Israelites who were being opposed by the Canaanites, they were cursed bitterly.

3. The Angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon (Judges 6:11-24), and is identified as “the LORD” who commissioned Gideon to be the deliverer or savior of Israel from the Midianites: And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? (v 14)

4. Then the Angel of the LORD appeared to the father and mother of Samson (Judges 13:2-24) and told him that his wife would bear a son who must become a Nazarite (not touch strong drink, not eat unclean food, and not cut his hair). Samson would deliver Israel from the Philistines, but he would also do many foolish things. “The Angel of the LORD” is mentioned eight times in this passage.

DAVID AND ISRAEL
David was provoked by Satan to number the children of Israel (the Israelites), although it appears that this was also a test from God, who was angry at Israel. David foolishly had the tribes numbered, and paid a high price for this sin (2 Samuel 24:1-25; 1 Chronicles 21:1-30). Seventy thousand people died through a pestilence, but God spared Jerusalem and allowed David to build an altar and make burnt offerings and peace offerings to stop further judgment. The Angel of the LORD appeared at the threshing place of Araunah (Ornan) the Jebusite.

ELIJAH
1. After Elijah destroyed the altar of the pagan god Baal, and had all its priests executed, his life was threatened by wicked queen Jezebel. As a result he fled into the wilderness, and wished to die. However, the Angel of the LORD visited him and gave him food and water and encouraged him to press on (1 Kings 19:1-18). But after Elijah came to mount Horeb, He is also identified as the Word of the LORD, who gave further instructions to Elijah.

2. Later, Elijah was sent to Ahaziah, king of Israel (2 Kings 1:1-18), who wanted to get a message from the pagan god Baalzebub of Ekron (actually Satan) as to whether he would recover from his disease. Elijah intercepted those messengers and sent them back to Ahaziah. Then the king sent fifty messengers to Elijah three times, but they were destroyed by fire from Heaven the first two times, and the last group was spared. Then Elijah went to the king and prophesied: Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast sent messengers to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron, is it not because there is no God in Israel to enquire of his word? therefore thou shalt not come down off that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die.(v 16)

THE DESTRUCTION OF SENNACHERIB’S ARMY
During the reign of Hezekiah, king of Judah, Sennacherib, king of Assyria mocked God and Hezekiah (2 Kings 19:1-37; Isaiah 37:1-38). Therefore, in answer to Hezekiah’s prayer (as conveyed by Isaiah), God sent the Angel of the LORD to destroy 185,000 Assyrians soldiers in one night, so that the Assyrians could not enter Jerusalem. This caused Sennacherib to return to Assyria, where he was murdered by his sons while worshiping another pagan god, Nisroch.

PSALMS
David mentions the Angel of the LORD in Psalms 34:7 and 35;5,6 as both a protecting Angel and an avenging Angel.

ZECHERIAH
The Angel of the LORD is mentioned in connection with these four prophecies:
1. Four horses among the myrtle trees (Zech 1:11-17)
2. Four horns and four carpenters (Zech 1:18-21)
3. Joshua the High Priest (Zech 3:1-10)
4. The house of David (Zech 12:1-14)

You will not find this Angel of the LORD mentioned in the New Testament, since He is presented as Jesus of Nazareth and the Lord Jesus Christ. He is shown to be far superior to all the angels (who were created by Him), and He certainly cannot be confused with Michael (the archangel), since Michael called Him "LORD", and said to Satan "the LORD rebuke thee" (Jude 1:9).

Enoch111 · May 11, 2020

DNB said:
There is nothing divine about the expression 'I am that I am', or any of its variations.

If I am shallow then this shows that you are WILFULLY BLIND. Good Bye.

DNB · May 11, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Praying for you also, @DNB.

You are the one in the precarious position, that espouses a doctrine that you can't even explain or comprehend yourself. Please tell me that you recognize and appreciate the predicament that you're in?

DNB · May 11, 2020

Enoch111 said:
If I am shallow then this shows that you are WILFULLY BLIND. Good Bye.

...i knew better, I warned myself. ...I re-edited my post.

CharismaticLady · May 11, 2020

oldhermit said:
Hebrews 1:8-9
"But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.'”

I'm not going to read everyone's replies, but the Father is saying of the Son that they are God. And so is the Spirit. They are one.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Romans 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

DNB · May 11, 2020

Enoch111 said:
He is called “the Angel of the LORD” or literally “the Angel of YHWH (Yahweh). This Angel is mentioned 49 times in the Old Testament, and is also called “the Angel of His presence” (once in Isaiah 63:9) and “mine Angel” (twice, in Exodus 23:23 and 32:34). He is also called “the Angel of the Covenant”, translated as “the Messenger of the Covenant” in Malachi 3:1. That is a reference to Christ as the Messenger of the New Covenant.

It has been recognized by all who have examined the appearance of this Angel as well as His words, that He is none other than the pre-incarnate Christ – a Theophany or a Christophany before Christ came to earth as Jesus of Nazareth (God manifest in the flesh). Since no man has seen God the Father at any time, and the Holy Spirit is invisible, it is the Son of God (or God the Son) who appeared to men in angelic form.

MOSES
The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses at the burning bush. It is here that He plainly disclosed that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that His name was “I AM THAT I AM” or “I AM”. Jesus identified Himself as God by telling the Jews that “Before Abraham was I AM”. This passage in Exodus 3:1-23 is extremely significant in many ways, and should be carefully studied.

You will not find this Angel of the LORD mentioned in the New Testament, since He is presented as Jesus of Nazareth and the Lord Jesus Christ. He is shown to be far superior to all the angels (who were created by Him), and He certainly cannot be confused with Michael (the archangel), since Michael called Him "LORD", and said to Satan "the LORD rebuke thee" (Jude 1:9).

How in the world did you manage to correlate all the instances of the term 'Angel of the Lord' in the OT, with that of Jesus Christ? You took such an generic appellation, that may have several meanings and significances within multiple contexts, and for one, assumed that they were one and the same entity, and two, that they were the 'pre-incarnate' Christ. The latter point being either an expression, concept or principle that is defined nowhere in the Bible. And all this because Jesus said 'before Abraham was, I am'.
How irresponsible and reckless with God's Word are you? I don't mind you stating a qualified opinion, as we're all struggling here to discern extremely profound wisdom. But espousing the most enigmatic, incomprehensible and implausible doctrine in all of Christendom, based on your above exegesis, is just undeniably frivolous, and ultimately irreverent.

Angelina · May 11, 2020

Hebrews 4:13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

justbyfaith said:
Amen, I hope that you will take those words to heart.

Amen and Amen ....That's what the Holy Spirit prompted me to post for you

Angelina · May 11, 2020

amadeus said:
How did you decide this? Do you not believe it is necessary to grow?

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" Luke 2:52

Do you not believe that you have two things trying to grow within you and that they struggle?

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

Jacob versus Esau in their mother's womb!

And how is it that you have known who the real Jesus is? How did Saul/Paul know that it was Jesus on the road to Damascus? Why did the two disciples on the road to Emmaus not recognize Jesus as they walked along with Him?

Blessings to you and peace from God @amadeus!!

Angelina · May 11, 2020

justbyfaith said:
It teaches that Jesus is God, to put it simply.

And this is also an essential for salvation, John 8:24.

See also John 8:58, John 8:59 with John 10:31-33 with these compared to Exodus 3:14.

The Pharisees picked up stones to stone Jesus because He claimed to be God.

You know bro... if you hadn't of made the above comment in post 2 after the original poster, I would have just passed on by. I would not have engaged with you at all....Then you had to go and mention John 8:24.

What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?

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