Saved Or Predestined ???

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Renniks

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@Renniks ,

With reference to my post #735, you had responded to it, but seem to have ignored the last part and I quote:

You mentioned 1 Cor.1:21. Can you tell us what is the foolishness of the message (the gospel) preached?

Could you please kindly answer the question?

Tong
R0223
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So the question is: How can the Lost believe if the gospel is foolishness to them?
Answer: A better question would be whether or it is possible that a lost person can change his mind, under the conviction by the Holy Spirit. (John 16:8) To the Calvinist, the answer is of course:, “absolutely not.” However, why did God choose the foolish, meek, weak, base and despised things of the world? The answer is given in verses 27 and 28, which is to “shame” and “nullify” the wise and strong of this world. By shaming and nullifying, they may be driven to humility and see the Gospel for what it truly is. God desires the salvation of the lost world (1st Timothy 2:3-4; 2nd Peter 3:9), but He also desires repentance and humility, and that’s precisely why He has chosen the base and despised things of this world for His Gospel. The point is that pride and repentance do not go hand-in-hand. Repentance involves humility, whereas pride leads to a dismissal of the Gospel. Basically, God is doing what He is doing in order to break people’s pride, so that they might repent, believe and be saved.
 

Renniks

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If there should be any illustration that man would use regarding the salvation of God, such illustration must show the same thing that the inspired writers of scriptures used to tell us of the salvation of God. So, if we ask ourselves if the illustration you made shows the salvation of God as the scriptural illustration of the slave being redeemed shows it to us, or of the lost sheep being found, or of the dead being born again, the obvious answer is "no". Your illustration is different from those biblical illustrations. That would only indicate that your view of the salvation of God is different and is not what scriptures says the salvation of God is.

Tong
R0226
How is it different? God offers salvation to all.
Titus 2:11

But there's a condition: belief.
(By grace, through faith)

Then, one receives the promise:
Eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


 

Tong2020

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" it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved."
You say:
" does say anything about what you say that God needs any ones permission or gets to have permission from sinful man."

What part of the necessity of faith and confession for salvation do you not understand? This verse literally says that by our faith we are put right with God.
How do you honestly answer the questions:

1. Does God need any permission or gets to have permission from every sinner before He could save him if God chooses to give him mercy?

2. Did you tell God that you allow Him to save you or not? Could you even dare say that to Him?

3. Why do you not acknowledge that you can't decide anything with regards your second birth, as you can't regarding your first birth? If you say it's because God told you in scriptures, please cite the scriptures that says so.

Renniks: What part of the necessity of faith and confession for salvation do you not understand? This verse literally says that by our faith we are put right with God.

Don't forget that one can only believe if faith comes to him. And Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So, who are those to whom faith comes and so could have faith? It is them who hear. Who are those who hear? They are those who are able to hear.

John 8:47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

There are people who are "of God" and who are not "of God". As can be understood in what Jesus said in John 8:47, only those who are "of God" hears God's words and therefore only to them that faith comes and will have faith, and the reason why some do not hear is because they are not "of God". Those truths are corroborated in John 10:26 when Jesus effectively said that only His sheep hear His voice and the reason why some do not believe is because they are not His sheep, and so the also, there are sheep and there are who are not sheep.

The point is that, while we read many verses that says that we must believe and that we are saved through faith, such as Romans 10:9-10, they must be understood in the light that it is God even that works out everything so that faith comes to them whom He have chosen, them who are "of God", the sheep that the Father gave to the Son.


Tong
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Tong2020

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There's a vast difference between every thought being evil and having an evil imagination, but that's not even my point.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Joel 2:28

And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; Acts2:17

On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.John 7

Starting to see a theme here? God is pouring out his Spirit on all flesh ever since Christ ascended. We are not under the old covenant. Also notice how Jesus said anyone who thirsts may come and receive the Spirit. Anyone, not a few preselected people.
Renniks: There's a vast difference between every thought being evil and having an evil imagination, but that's not even my point.

Go ahead and check out the Hebrew text and see for yourself that they are the same word which means purpose.

Renniks: God is pouring out his Spirit on all flesh ever since Christ ascended. We are not under the old covenant.

Yes, we are not under the old covenant. But that does not mean that we are in a different world or reality than it was then during the old covenant. It's still the same world and reality. It's not like the human being during the OT were any different from the human being at the present time. So, they are still what truth God spoke of man in scriptures, that is, the thoughts of man's heart is evil continually, and the imagination of his heart is evil from his youth.

You believe that truth is no more the truth today and is today a lie. I believe on the other hand that it remains to be the truth. For God said after the flood:

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

What God said there is not a truth only true at the current and present time then, for all mankind at that time were no more (saved 8 persons), but is a truth that speaks of the heart of the fallen human being, even them who will yet be born into existence after the flood.

Tong
R0228
 

Tong2020

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No, the main conviction is of unbelief. All other sins stem from this one. It flat out says they are convicted of sin, no matter how you try to wiggle around it.
So, now you modify and say that the main conviction is of unbelief. Well that even is still not what John 16:8-9 says.

You say "All other sins stem from this one.". Mistake after mistake there Renniks. Try to stop resisting for a while and try to concentrate on John 16:8-11, open your spiritual eyes, and understand what it says.

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Tong
R0229
 

Tong2020

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That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you don't do these things, will God save you anyway? " If" you do this, then that will happen. You can't get around the requirements.
Renniks, I addressed that scriptures and the argument you make out it in my post #763. That's a clear misuse of that scripture, I have to say.

Renniks: If you don't do these things, will God save you anyway? " If" you do this, then that will happen.

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that one will only be saved when he is circumcised in the flesh, and shall have perfectly kept the law of Moses, will you be saved? If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that Jesus Christ is not Deity and is only man, will you be saved? If you do those things, yet does not repent of your sins and so live a sinful life, will you be saved?

The point is, such understanding is a misuse the verse, taking it out of context. Those questions were asked only with the aim to show that, and nothing more.

Tong
R0230
 

Tong2020

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18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So the question is: How can the Lost believe if the gospel is foolishness to them?
Answer: A better question would be whether or it is possible that a lost person can change his mind, under the conviction by the Holy Spirit. (John 16:8) To the Calvinist, the answer is of course:, “absolutely not.” However, why did God choose the foolish, meek, weak, base and despised things of the world? The answer is given in verses 27 and 28, which is to “shame” and “nullify” the wise and strong of this world. By shaming and nullifying, they may be driven to humility and see the Gospel for what it truly is. God desires the salvation of the lost world (1st Timothy 2:3-4; 2nd Peter 3:9), but He also desires repentance and humility, and that’s precisely why He has chosen the base and despised things of this world for His Gospel. The point is that pride and repentance do not go hand-in-hand. Repentance involves humility, whereas pride leads to a dismissal of the Gospel. Basically, God is doing what He is doing in order to break people’s pride, so that they might repent, believe and be saved.
No Renniks, my question to you is :

Can you tell us what is the foolishness of the message (the gospel) preached? Or what is the foolishness of the message of what was preached, that is, the message of the cross?

Tong
R0231


 

Tong2020

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How is it different? God offers salvation to all.
Titus 2:11

But there's a condition: belief.
(By grace, through faith)

Then, one receives the promise:
Eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Again, that is a misuse of the verse, I have to say.

I suggest you study the biblical illustrations of the salvation of God, that of the slave being redeemed, that of the lost sheep being found, and of the dead being born again. For if you don't see through those illustrations, the salvation of God, then it will, most often than not, that many verses will be misused.

Tong
R0232
 

Renniks

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Did you tell God that you allow Him to save you or not? Could you even dare say that to Him?
That's how salvation happens, we surrender our will to his.

Matthew 16:24-25
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

If we are just irresistibly drawn to God and others never are drawn at all, Jesus' words become meaningless.
 

Renniks

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There are people who are "of God" and who are not "of God".
Absolutely not. Christ died once for all.

For indeed Christ died for sins once for all, the Just and Righteous for the unjust and unrighteous [the Innocent for the guilty] so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; 1 Peter 3:18

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

This theology of Jesus dying only for a few reeks of hellfire.
 

Renniks

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So, now you modify and say that the main conviction is of unbelief. Well that even is still not what John 16:8-9 says.

You say "All other sins stem from this one.". Mistake after mistake there Renniks. Try to stop resisting for a while and try to concentrate on John 16:8-11, open your spiritual eyes, and understand what it says.

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Tong
R0229
I see no mistake. My eyes are wide open. And this is just one out of scads of verses that indicate Christ died for all.
Unless he died for all, why would all be convicted? Can you be convicted of a sin that you had no choice to escape? If some are born damned, what is the point of sending conviction on them? Why would they even have a conscience?
 

Renniks

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Renniks, I addressed that scriptures and the argument you make out it in my post #763. That's a clear misuse of that scripture, I have to say.

Renniks: If you don't do these things, will God save you anyway? " If" you do this, then that will happen.

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that one will only be saved when he is circumcised in the flesh, and shall have perfectly kept the law of Moses, will you be saved? If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that Jesus Christ is not Deity and is only man, will you be saved? If you do those things, yet does not repent of your sins and so live a sinful life, will you be saved?

The point is, such understanding is a misuse the verse, taking it out of context. Those questions were asked only with the aim to show that, and nothing more.

Tong
R0230
You didn't answer, you just danced around the question. Will God save you if you don't believe and confess, yes or no?
 

Renniks

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Can you tell us what is the foolishness of the message (the gospel) preached? Or what is the foolishness of the message of what was preached, that is, the message of the cross?
Ok, I guess I don't understand the question. What the passage says is the cross is foolishness to those who are not being saved. That pretty self-explanatory. A person under conviction may still mock the message, but in his heart there's a glimmer of "maybe this is truth." which grows stronger if he yields to that conviction or weaker if he resists. We've all been there.
 

Renniks

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Again, that is a misuse of the verse, I have to say.

I suggest you study the biblical illustrations of the salvation of God, that of the slave being redeemed, that of the lost sheep being found, and of the dead being born again. For if you don't see through those illustrations, the salvation of God, then it will, most often than not, that many verses will be misused.

Tong
R0232
Lol, I literally say if you do as it says in the verse to do you will receive eternal life and you say I'm misusing the verse. Maybe you need to quit complicating what God has made simple.
 

Tong2020

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That's how salvation happens, we surrender our will to his.

Matthew 16:24-25
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

If we are just irresistibly drawn to God and others never are drawn at all, Jesus' words become meaningless.
Why did you ignore the other two questions as follows?

1. Does God need any permission or gets to have permission from every sinner before He could save him if God chooses to give him mercy?

3. Why do you not acknowledge that you can't decide anything with regards your second birth, as you can't regarding your first birth? If you say it's because God told you in scriptures, please cite the scriptures that says so.


So, it's clear that you did in effect told God that you allowed Him and gave Him the permission to save you. Well, that shows what you think, the creature as he is and sinful at that, who man is to you.

Again, you cited a verse and misuse it.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Who are the "All" that the Father gives the Son, Jesus Christ?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Can all come to Jesus Christ?

Tong
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Tong2020

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Absolutely not. Christ died once for all.

For indeed Christ died for sins once for all, the Just and Righteous for the unjust and unrighteous [the Innocent for the guilty] so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; 1 Peter 3:18

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

This theology of Jesus dying only for a few reeks of hellfire.
So you don't believe that there are those who are "of God" and who are "not of God". That is in effect denying Jesus' very words in John 8:47 "He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

And yet here again, misused verses as always.

Regarding 1 Pet. 3:18, even the verse itself tells that the "all" does not refer to every man, for the "us" clearly indicates that not all men will be saved. For because Christ died for you then He had redeemed you and so are freed. And so, if Christ died for all, all then were redeemed and are freed. But obviously, that is not the situation. And of course, not only in the immediate context but also on the larger context where we read in scriptures that Christ gave His life for His sheep and not to wolves nor thieves.

That goes as well for Hebrews 2:9. The "everyone" there does not refer to every man. The context in verses 10 to the end of Hebrews 2, in almost every verse, tells us who the "everyone" refers to. They are not all mankind but are the children whom God has given Jesus Christ. And of course, also on the larger context as I mentioned in the paragraph above.

Tong
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Tong2020

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I see no mistake. My eyes are wide open. And this is just one out of scads of verses that indicate Christ died for all.
Unless he died for all, why would all be convicted? Can you be convicted of a sin that you had no choice to escape? If some are born damned, what is the point of sending conviction on them? Why would they even have a conscience?
That's why I'm trying to show it to you that you may see it.

Why, did God tell you to sin that now you demand from Him an escape when convicted or even argue with your question that you can't be convicted of sin that you had no choice to escape? Really?

You argue "If some are born damned, what is the point of sending conviction on them? Why would they even have a conscience?".

Your question is coming from a misunderstanding of what conviction is. And so I take it as invalid. Conviction does not mean bringing people to repentance, but is a declaration that a person is guilty of an offense or sin. Now, conviction may convince one and lead one to repentance or otherwise. Thus, we see why not all mankind will be convicted unto conversion.

Regarding the conscience, it's part of who they are, or more properly who they came to be, as a result of Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And that is again another topic.

Tong
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Enoch111

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And so, if Christ died for all, all then were redeemed and are freed.
This is the primary fallacy of Five Point Calvinism. Christ did indeed die for all mankind, but no one is redeemed or saved until and unless they obey the Gospel -- "the obedience of faith". Why is that so hard to fathom?

1. GOD COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31)

2. GOD COMMANDS ALL MEN TO BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BE SAVED
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (Rom 16:25,26)
 
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kcnalp

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God knew who would burn in Hell before He created them. He didn't have to create them. He chose to.

Proverbs 16:4
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
 

Tong2020

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You didn't answer, you just danced around the question. Will God save you if you don't believe and confess, yes or no?
Your question is coming from a passage, which you took out of context. So, your question is deemed invalid. That is why I pointed out to you that such understanding is a misuse of the verse, taking it out of context.

Sorry, I just could not answer an invalid question coming from an understanding of an out context passage. So instead of pressing that, try considering my arguments that I brought up in the form of questions as follows:

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that one will only be saved when he is circumcised in the flesh, and shall have perfectly kept the law of Moses, will you be saved?

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that Jesus Christ is not Deity and is only man, will you be saved?

If you do those things, yet does not repent of your sins and so live a sinful life, will you be saved?


Again, I'd like to make clear that the arguments above were used only to show that the passage is misused and not in any way suggestive of any of what I believe.

Tong
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