Preaching the Gospel !
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No, I live in the reality of Jesus Christ, who sent us the Holy Spirit to teach us and to lead us into all the truth,. For nigh on 300 years the gospel was preached from the spirit without a wriiten book, why is it that we need it now. Maybe we are to intelectual for God, doesnt mean He wont talk to us.In His Love
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.Cant you hear Jesus, are you not one of His.How can you hear Him if you dont believe you can, and if you cant hear Him then how can you be one of His. Dont you believe what you read.In His love
no doubt.... I readily admit I have many things to learn... that is the biblically humble position to take, obviously you fall under the "be careful if you think you stand, lest you fall" condemnation...nevertheless, I love to learn the depths of the Scriptures from men like Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, RC Sproul, John Piper, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Francis Turrentin, John Gerstner, Mike Horton, Sinclair Ferguson, JI Packer, Charles Spurgeon, AW Pink, John Gill, James Montegomery Boice, Martyn Lloyd Jones, James White, Francis Schaeffer CS Lewis, peter Kreeft, John Frame, JP Moreland, William Lane Craig, Ravi Zacharias, Norm Geisler, etc etc etc... so I really have to wonder what there is that savedbgrace can teach me that I haven't already learned from these men the Holy Spirit has given the church... for instance that eternal union is not a biblical term per se, but is one used by John Gill... and that it is not a strictly biblical term is not that big of a deal really... I was just asking... just checking if you would be honest about where you got it, or if you would play it off as if it was your own term...but just so you know, though there is indeed a lot I have to learn, I have invested a great deal of my life in studying the bible and I have a degree in Biblical Counseling and a double minor in Systematic theology and Apologetics from a conservative Cristian college and seminary (grace Colege and Seminary Winona Lake IN) though I also had the opurtunity to attend a secular Univ. (Indiana Univ at South Bend) as well as a liberal "Christian" school (Goshen College), so I would not be surprised if I have forgotten more than you already know... in any case... I love to learn so if you have something to teach me, I am willing to learn...the really sad thing, savedbygrace, is that we are probably not that far from one another doctrinally, but in your... what..?.. paranoia...? you have to create opponents where there are none so that you can feel more spiritual or something...? you are a rather strange bird to be sure... looking for disagrement and hostilit whereever you can find it, and creating it if it doesn't exist is an odd way for a Christian to operate... but hey, if it is you, contra mundum, and you feel that simply because others disagree with you, that this means you must be correct and everyone else is decieved, well then have at it.... it must be lonely being the only one who is perfect in their theology... lol..blessings,kensavedbygrace57;72073 said:
hey Mike... it would have been nice to try and get a straight answer fro savedbygrace... at least i tried to directly engage him in conversation... but he seems a lot more interested in speaking at people than speaking to them...as far as the phrase "Eternal Union" goes, I am pretty sure he got it from John Gill... I knew it was not a biblical phrase per se... but that doesn't bother me too much, I just wanted to poke around a little to see if I could get a direct response from savedbygrace instead of another somewhat banal sermon which doesn't really pertain to anything specifically that anyone is talking about... just savedbygrace wanting to read himself type (as opposed to someone talking to hear themselves talk)...I agree that savedbygrace believes in some form of predestinarianism.. its hard to know which brand, though, and I doubt he could articulate where he is at within the tradition...that "God is sovereign" is not an extreme view within Calvinism, in fact, it ought not be a controversial doctrine for anyone, whether they be Arminian or Calvinistic... but, in any case, all Calvinists believe that God is indeed sovereign overall... including our salvation... there is not square inch of the created realm which can hold up its hand and say that God's sovereignty ends here and cannot enter... or as another teacher puts it, there is not one single maverick molecule in the universe, for if there was one single atom not under God's sovereign control, then that could very well would could start a whole landslide of events that would thwart God's eternal plan to save a people for himself.. but I would agree, I hope people do not see him as a spokesperson for Calvinism…. Instead I would hope that if someone is really curious about what Charles Spurgeon said is simply a nickname for biblical Christianity, they would check out some of the teachers I mentioned in my above post to savedbygrace…. In any case all forms of Calvinism believe in eternal predestination… that is that God has chosen some persons to be saved before the foundation of the world… we think this is the case simply because this is what we think the bible teaches, for instance EPH 1:3-11 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,” As far as this view being “extreme”, well I guess that is a personally subjective ascertainment that would vary from person to person, what one person would consider “extreme’ another might consider “balanced” or “conservative”. In any case, those from within Calvinism do not see the view as extreme at all, rather we seek to learn and to teach what we take to be the full counsel of God on every matter the bible teaches, including the election of individuals to salvation such that a person’s faith which they initially exercise towards salvation is, itself, a gift from God. Or you could out the 2 views in stark contrast to one another like this, Calvinism believes Regeneration precedes faith…. While most of Christianity today believes in a synergistic model of salvation where Faith precedes regeneration.. So we do not take any point of our doctrine from some “imagined” place from within our own imaginations. I do, however, imagine that if I were to say exactly that about your beliefs, you would not be too happy about it. You might guess that persons like myself, who hold the Scriptures to such a high level, and where we do not believe anything simply because John Calvin believed it, but subject every teaching to the authority of the Scriptures, are not too happy about such a comment either. This is a simple application of the golden rule…. As far as this doctrine ignoring any other of God’s attributes, obviously I disagree. You can see the other attributes of God well defended and expounded in books by Calvinistic theologian who write on the doctrine of God or “theology proper”, any systematic theology written by a Calvinistic scholar would go into these attributes in great length, Charles Hodge, Robert Reymond, Berkof, Robert Dabney, Millard Erickson, Wayne Grudem, John Gill etc… and in particular books devoted to just this topic which explore the divine attributes to even greater depth and detail would be books like “No One Like Him” by Feinberg, the classic “The Attributes of God” by Charnock, or The Doctrine of God by Bavinck etc… but regardless, no one ever ignores the other attributes of God from within Calvinism. As far as your discussion of God drawing someone, I realize that that is your opinion about what the bible teaches, and it is typical Arminianism, but obviously, as you end your post with, you realize I disagree. What we believe about drawing is to look at the Greek word for draw. When you do, you will see that it literally means “drag”, for instance the same word that Jon uses where he says that Jesus will draw all men unto Him, is the same word that is used in John 21:6 where they are dragging in nets…. This ought to change one’s view of the rather passive connotations one typically associates with the common Arminian notion of “drawing” equaling “wooing”… it is not a wooing action at all when Jesus draws all men to Him… it is an action depicting sovereignty and intention. But Calvinism never denies that men make choices, of course they do. But, and here is the key difference, we believe that the kind of men making the decisions determines the outcome. We believe that outside of Christ men are fallen, and that the bible declares them to be by nature children of wrath, they are of the flesh, and those in the flesh cannot do anything at all to please God… that they are dead in their trespasses and sins and cannot even come to God because they do not want to come to Him. Its not that God stops people from coming to Him when they want to in the Calvinistic view of things. Rather it is the case that all men are sinners and so radically affected by the Fall that they will never even want to come to God for salvation unless God first grants them the ability to do so. And that is what this is all about, ABILITY. Jesus says that no one CAN come to Him UNLESS the Father grants them the ability to do so. “Can” is a word denoting ability, not permission. And I totally disagree that God changes His purpose. If this is the case it means that God does not fully and exhaustively know the future. You do not believe that God does not know the future do you? If you do believe that perfectly and exhaustively knows the future, then in reality God does not “react”, he does not change His plans to plan B just because something He did not expect happened and He has to scramble to come up with another plan since His first plan was evidently imperfect and mistaken. The Scripture uses terms like “God relented” etc (in biblical literature and hermeneutics these are called anthropomorphisms) and it may seem, from our limited human perspective that God’s will has changed, but there is just too much biblical support that God infallibly knows the future t really believe this to be the case. And if He does perfectly know the future, He already knows what we will pray before we ever even begin to pray (MT 6:8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.), He knows everything. If you do believe that God perfectly know the future, then sadly you are far outside the bounds of orthodox conservative Christianity. But hopefully this is not the case. Thanks for your time as well…. Blessings, kenBrother Mike;72050][SIZE=3]epistemaniac:[/SIZE]It will not be possible to discuses this with savedbygrace 57. In one thread he called Long life a curse from God. [URL]http://www.christianityboard.com/showthread.php?p=72010#post72010[/URL]The mental process is not available to savedbygrace57 to comprehend what you would want to tell him. He makes up his own bible terms said:
epistemaniac: God knows the future.God is time itself, past present and future. God speaking creates future that can not be changed. You can try to save the planet from this so called Global warming, you can spend tons of money, but the planet is still going to melt with fervent heat down to the elements. I understand where your coming from and it has helped me understand some past people I have had to deal with. I never knew, this was a doctrine that is held as absolute truth by some, until now.
You see, I agree with this, but I found in some debates I had been arguing ignorantly of what a person was actually meaning. You have no gage on how hyper their form of Calvinism is. I believe that God has a predestined will for every person he sends on earth. I believe they are responsible to fill that will. Thats why the gifts and callings are without repentance, because that plan never changes. So, while thinking one topic was being discussed it was really another. God's will for a man on earth V.S God's will on who gets saved or not. I simply did not make the connection, and how could I with so many forms of this doctrine. One thing I do know, WE both seem to love the Lord Jesus and have taken the time to actually read and study the Word of God. (You would be surprised at how many illiterate Christians we have out there.) So, I guess that would both make us "Elected" and to debate how we got here would be pointless. I love you Brother and be blessed!!!Jesus Is Lord.
God bless you savedbygrace57. You truly are a blessing, and make things very interesting. Just to let you know, epistemaniac believes along the lines you do. It would do you good if you treated him a little better. Sup Brother Deadwheat1224. Amazing, Huh?Jesus Is Lord.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
epistemaniac;72179]I think this is a really important passage teaching divine election unto salvation... Jesus here says that people do not believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep... we would expect said:
not to be persnickety.. but if you do not know the Bible, then you can't know Jesus.. or, in other words, the only information we have concerning who Jesus is is found in the bible, outside of a few secular sources which do not tell us much about who Jesus is and what He did... I appreciate the desire you have for a personal relationship with Jesus, and the discouragement you seem to be feeling because of the disdain some people have for theology and the rigorous study of the bible... and that this is what you are trying to emphasize... its just that this line of overly subjective or mystical thinking can lead to the creation of a Jesus that does not really exist.. I am not saying that you personally have a false Jesus.. just that without the bible to guide us, we have no way to determine who the true Jesus is versus antichrists... so if you really knew nothing of the bible, you would know nothing of Jesus, for if you heard about Jesus from others, if they conveyed who the true Jesus is, they would have done so only by retelling information they themselves got from the scriptures...blessings,kenmjrhealth;72123 said:
[quote name='Stumpmaster;72200][B]Very interesting dissertation Epistemaniac[/B]' date=' as I'm sure your comments on these Scriptures would be. [B']The subject of lost souls[/B] and how, on orders from God carried out by His Son Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, they are sought out and brought to salvation if they are willing to come, will continue to ocuppy numerous people until the Lord returns.[/QUOTE]interestingly, it would seem that if a sheep was lost from the herd, standing there, helpless, fearful... the Good Shepherd would not ask the poor pathetic sheep if they want to be saved or left to fend the wolves off all by themselves, rather He would literally pick that sheep up, put him on His shoulders, and make sure that the sheep that once was lost, but now is found, is safe and secure... the sheep may even not have the good sense to want to be safe with the herd, but if the Good Shepherd finds him and rescues him, then it doesn't seem as if the sheep's willingness to do this or that much factors into the situation.. Jesus says that His sheep know His voice and that they WILL follow Him (Jn. 10:27) Of course they must be willing, but thank God that He changes our wills so that we are made willing to do what we would never, on our own, in the flesh, ever want.... we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, but most never read the next verse which says that it is actually God who is at work in us, making us willing.. Phil. 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." another verse that seems to teach the same thing is Ro. 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." And Ezekiel paints a clear picture as to who does what in salvation by saying that it is God who takes out the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of stone... so that ... SO THAT... .. causing us... to be able to walk in God's commands.. Eze 36:26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." One of God's ordinances is to believe on the Lord Jesus in order to be saved... well God gives us the ability to do just that, and if He didn't, we would continue to have our hearts of stone, and never savingly believe.So I agree that people must believe, they must engage their wills in order to be "willing to come", the question is not that they must believe, but how is it that some believe and some don't...? And the question is, what exactly is the will which must be engaged in order to decide to savingly believe on the Lord Jesus...? I submit that the reason I am a believer is not because I am smart enough to want to avoid hell, because I have neighbors who are a lot smarter than I am, or that I am more spiritual than my unbelieving neighbor, because I have neighbors who are a lot more spiritual than I am.... but that what separates me from my unbelieving neighbor is not to be found in me at all, but is rather to be found in God and His electing grace and mercy.I do agree that the relationship between man's responsibility and God's sovereignty is an issue that will be discussed/debated until Jesus returns... 
blessings,ken
blessings,kenepist says:
No I dont, but I decide wether i can justify recognizing you as an elect or not..thus far there is no evidence scripturally..I have no reason to see you as an brother in Jesus christ..if you dont believe the truth of the Gospel..so until then your an unbeliever to me.. ,
No it doesnt bother me one bit, i can say however, up to this point He has not taught you the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus..
Predestination is a subject I am not so sure of. For instance, God has His elect, 144000, in which Jesus says no man can steal them out of His hand, for He has being given them by God. Yet He also says that, " many are called but few are choosen", He never said that they could choose not to follow. I guess it ties into the parable of the seeds, because in the end its us who choose to keep following Jesus or not.In His Love
"Do you realsie what you are saying. The disciples never had the bible so I guess they never knew Jesus, and neither did Moses, or abraham, or David or the list goes on."Perhaps the more accurate statement would be "If you do not know God's word, then you do not Jesus". Which I think I agree with. Moses, Abraham, and David didn't know Jesus... they were Jewish and thus, though Holy, did not know Jesus. They did however know the Word of God I would argue. The Apostles obviously knew the Word because they knew Christ, who was the word.
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