the 4 horsemen--ancient or now?

GINOLJC, to all,
First thanks for the reply. second, I appreciate your reply.

Stumpmaster said:

the three members of it exist as one yet function as three.
How is H2O a liquid, a solid and a gas? Simply put they can exist in different forms depending on the circumstances.

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thanks and glad you stated it that way. so the liquid, is not the solid, and not gas. ok, but you said this,

Stumpmaster said:

Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", with no mention of Christ's inclusion in the work of Creation at this stage.

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see, this is where the problem come in at. if Christ the Lord Jesus was not included in the work of creation, why do John 1:3 say this. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

could you explain this? thanks in advance

PICJAG.

See post #88 on this thread: Covid-19: The White Horse

Dcopymope said:

@marks

And then we have part of Gods "church" shunning all logic when comprehending the book they claim to believe in. According to that particular click, we are not supposed to use the brain God gave us to function. Its no wonder why his "church" still can't see the forest for the tree's. If there is a "body of Christ", I'm still looking for it.

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understand why the pimps and hoes are beating you in
maybe
easy to become a Legend in your own Mind eh

Randy Kluth said:

How inspired are you when you think I'm Pretrib? I'm not.



You still think I'm claiming to be a prophet? Go ahead and test away. I love trying to answer questions. But to be honest, I think you need a little attitude adjustment? I'm not your enemy brother. I just tell it as I see it.

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Wise people understand whether they are being told the truth by others. Others, need help to be wise and not soak in the rubbish that is presented as to the understanding that we should have based on their "learning." If a duck walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck, no matter what pond it happens to swim in. I agree with you that you are not my enemy, but I know who you are an enemy of, by what you present as your/his understanding of the End Times. You are his good and faithful servant even though the time for them has not yet arrived.

The "ride of the four horsemen" has been a subject for discussion for a long time. And it should be noted by any "Christian" that this "ride" has a set point in time when it began, with which Revelation 6:1-4 gives the year when their "ride" started, and verses 5-8 provides further details.

At Revelation 6:1, 2 is seen a rider on "a white horse", who is crowned king of God's Kingdom (Dan 7:13, 14), who then goes forth "conquering and to complete his conquest", showing that God's Kingdom was then "set up".(Dan 2:44a and Ps 110:1, 2)

Who is this "rider" ? Jesus Christ, who is seen again at Revelation 19:11 as riding on "a white horse" and at Psalms 45:4 as the one who ' rides in the cause of truth and humility and righteousness '. But what follows in rapid succession helps sincere individuals to establish the date when the "ride of the four horsemen" commenced."(Note: the color white symbolizes spiritual and moral cleanness, see Rev 7:9 and 19:8)

At Ezekiel 21:25-27, it establishes that Zedekiah was the last king to set on "Jehovah's throne" in 618 B.C.E.(1 Chron 29:23) before he was removed in 607 B.C.E. with the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, saying: "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ' Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one (or Jesus as seen at Isaiah 53:2, 3), and bring low the high one (king Zedekiah). A ruin, a ruin, a ruin, I will make it. And it ("Jehovah's throne") will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes (or receives the crown as the rightful king of God's Kingdom), and I (Jehovah God) must give it to him".(see also Gen 49:10 that shows that "the scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh (meaning "He Whose It Is; He to Whom It Belongs") comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples belong")

Now, at Revelation 6:3, 4, the second "rider" comes forth, on a "fiery colored horse", that "was granted (or permitted by God) to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword".(Note: the color red can depict violence, such as the "dragon" being "fiery-colored" and wages war with the "woman" at Rev 12:3, 4; see also Rev 19:12, whereby Jesus "eyes are a fiery flame", as well as Num 21:8 in which Moses was told by Jehovah to build a "fiery snake" out of copper and place it on a pole for those who had been bitten by poisonous snakes and then looked at it in order to save themselves from death)

When was "peace take away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another" on a global scale ? With the outbreak of World War I on July 28, 1914, that cost an estimated 21 million lives over some four years of war, called "the Great War" until the outbreak of World War II on September 1, 1939.(Note: some feel that World War II broke out on Sept 19, 1931 when Japan invaded Manchuria, but most historians agree with Germany's invasion of Poland as the starting point of WWII)

What resulted or followed with the outbreak of global warfare ? The "rider" on a "black horse" (with the color black depicting serious trouble, ominous, such as "black clouds approaching") bringing forth famine or starvation, in which the "rider" had "a pair of scales" to carefully measure food, and whereby prices went "through the roof ", of "a quart of wheat for a denarius (or a whole day's wage in the first century) and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine (reserved only for the very rich who could afford them)".(Rev 6:5, 6; Note: the United Kingdom had to have repeated convoys of ships loaded with food from the United States during WWII in order to stave off starvation for the British people, and of which German U-boats sank many of the ships)

The next "rider" to come forth was on a "pale horse" (the color pale signifies sickness that is at times followed by death, such as "you look pale and don't look good", think COVID-19) "and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave (Greek Hades, the King James Bible reads "hell") was closely following him. And authority was given them (or with permission from Jehovah God, see Jesus words to Pilate John 19:11) over the fourth part (or a large swath) of the earth, to kill with a long sword (rider on the "fiery-colored horse") and with food shortage (rider on the "black horse") and with deadly plague (rider on the "pale horse" that brings on the pandemic such as COVID-19) and by the wild beasts of the earth (or political governments, see Dan 7:1-8)".(Rev 6:7, 8)

So, what has been learned ? That Jesus was crowned king of God's Kingdom in 1914, that set off a chain reaction of events, because he also fought against "the dragon" or Satan the Devil and his demon angels and threw them out of heaven, being "hurled down to the earth", so that "woe for the earth (the more stable elements who support Satan's political system or "the wild beast", Rev 13:1-3) and for the sea (the restless masses of mankind, who are never satisfied with the political status quo, see Isa 57:20, 21), because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time" before his being thrown into "the abyss" or state of inactivity.(Rev 12:7-9, 12; 20:1-3)

Note: there is also another way to establish the year when the "ride of the four horsemen" was set in motion, that of Daniel 4 concerning "a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height was enormous" (Dan 4:10), whereby it lays out a time line, using Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar as an example, of God [whose personal name is Jehovah, Isa 26:4] removing whom he wishes in order "that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it whomever he wants, and he set over it even the lowliest of men" (Dan 4:17), pointing to his crowning Jesus Christ, as at Psalms 2 that states: "The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah will scoff at them (the political nations who do want Jehovah's rulership over them, Ps 2:1-3). At that time he will speak to them in his anger, saying: "I myself have installed my king on Zion (or heavenly Jerusalem, see Heb 12:22), my holy mountain".(Ps 2:5, 6)

This "tree" whose "top reached to the heavens" represented Jehovah's rulership through David's lineage (see 2 Sam 7, whereby Jehovah established an everlasting covenant with David, for his "offspring" through whom God will "firmly establish the throne of his kingdom forever"), and of which it was ' chopped down ' in 607 B.C.E.

It was held from "growing" or in "stasis" with a symbolic "banding of iron and copper" for a period of 7 times or 2520 days literally, but logic shows that the days are really years, in view of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, so that a period of 2,520 years would pass from 607 B.C.E. until "the one who has the legal right" to Jehovah's throne was crowned king of God's Kingdom in 1914.

Thus, the "ride of the four horsemen" began in 1914 and will end at the battle of Armageddon, the war between God's Kingdom and the political nations and their supporters.(Rev 16:14, 16; 19:19-21)

Randy Kluth said:

The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse sort of launch the judgment of God against the world in preparation for the Kingdom of Christ. But no real time frame is given. We know that the endtimes, in a sense, began after Jesus' died on the cross, and judgment against mankind became sort of "last chance."

But the endtimes is also our day, what we might call "the last of the last days." It is the time immediately preceding the return of Christ. So my question is, and I sincerely ask it, do the 4 horsemen, or even more broadly, the 7 seals, represent something that began in ancient history, in the time of Christ's apostles, or does this actually refer to our day?

I think the backdrop was actually from Dan 7, where the Roman Empire presented the last obstacle to the coming of Christ's Kingdom. But that Kingdom would sort of hold the world in place until it finally breaks up into 10 states, and then is reconsolidated under Antichrist.

The 4 horsemen may have begun to show cracks in the Roman Empire, because after war and varied disasters ripped into that area, the city of Rome fell to barbarians in 476 AD.

But in these last days the old Roman Empire exists in these 10 plus states, although yet to be consolidated under Antichrist. Perhaps these 4 horsemen come to make cracks in this edifice today, which is the European Union? Is war and natural disasters starting to whittle away the unity and continuity of this heir to the old Roman system?

I don't know. But I do think John was given to refrain from mentioning the Roman tradition specifically because it would've been looked on as sedition, or rebellion. In a number of places in NT Scriptures Rome is treated gently, with an eye to preserving social order and a good Christian witness. But Christians also knew how corrupt Rome was, and wanted to be careful to not "become them" in trying to "win them!"

Let me know your opinion on this?

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Randy, have you given any thought concerning what the scroll contained? Jesus will eventually remove seven seals to reveal the content of the scroll. Right? What is written inside?

101G said:

GINOLJC, to all,
First thanks for the reply. second, I appreciate your reply.

thanks and glad you stated it that way. so the liquid, is not the solid, and not gas. ok, but you said this,

see, this is where the problem come in at. if Christ the Lord Jesus was not included in the work of creation, why do John 1:3 say this. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

could you explain this? thanks in advance

PICJAG.

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Ok, 101G. I am glad we agree that Jesus is included in the work of Creation, Scripture often names or refers to the Creator when it is not Christ in view, but of course not excluding Him from the creative work. Please don't think I am saying Jesus is not integral to the the work of Creation, and if you review my posts you will find that is not at all being claimed.

Rather what I am saying and backing up with the Scriptures below, is that the Redeemer Lamb That Was Slain takes the scroll from the right hand of the Creator Who Sits Upon The Throne, as described in Revelation 4:10-11. Please pay special attention to the emboldened red coloured text.

Rev 4:10-11 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that lives for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, (11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

It is not the Lamb who is being worshipped but the Invisible Presence of God the Father who can only be identified by describing the glory around Him, and referred to as Him That Sat On The Throne, and acknowledged as having created all things for His pleasure, thus in the next chapter

Rev 5:6-7 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (7) And he [the Redeemer Lamb That Was Slain] came and took the book out of the right hand of him [the aforementioned Creator that the 24 elders acknowledged as having created all things for His pleasure] that sat upon the throne.

I sincerely hope you see the truth of these verses and my explanation of them.

Blessings in Christ

Randy Kluth said:

The only reason I think these 24 elders are angels is because this is a scene in heaven, and the saints are not yet glorified, and therefore cannot be there.

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It's a vision. If you think God cannot include the future redeemed, resurrected, glorified, and eternally existing saints in a vision intended to disclose the Inputs, Processes, and Outcomes He wants John to write about for the edification of those in the temporal realm, yet to be resurrected, glorified and exalted for eternity, you seriously limit the Almighty One.

I lean toward the

Randy Kluth said:

There is a relationship between the 7 seals of Revelation and the signs of the Olivet Discourse. But a perfect correlation? We need to delve deeper.

1st, what were the signs of the Olivet Discourse? What did they intend to convey?

Jesus had just said the temple would be destroyed--this took place in 70 AD. Jesus was asked when this would happen, and how it related to his coming Kingdom. Jesus indicated this 70 AD event would happen 1st, in his own generation.

The signs of it about to take place were called "birth pains." They were things like wars, rumors of wars, the preaching of the Gospel, the persecution of the apostles, earthquakes, etc. They were called "birth pains" because these were things immediately evident in that generation that would imminently precede the fall of Jerusalem. This is not to say these signs would not continue throughout the age--only that they would all immediately be discernible as evidence that Jerusalem was about to Fall.

What about these same signs in the book of Revelation? What about the 7 seals? Many believe John's Revelation took place *after* the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. If so, these signs cannot have been the "birth pain" signs of the Olivet Discourse. But as I said, these signs continue throughout the age.

Specifically, the book of Revelation is addressing not the fall of Jerusalem, which already happened. Rather, it is addressing the coming of the Kingdom, which the 70 AD event only put off. So these signs, though similar to the birth pains, were actually events happening later in the NT era, and specifically in the time right before the Kingdom comes. Inasmuch as these signs were given to the historic Church we can say that endtime signs are to apply to our own time, as well, since all these signs are available in all generations.

But to apply them specifically to the coming of the Kingdom is, I think, to apply these signs specifically to the time right before Christ's Coming. It is to show the intensity of these signs, just as the birth pains were just prior to the 70 AD event. I believe they show God's approaching judgment against the Antichrist system, as he attempts to push off the coming of Christ's Kingdom. That, after all, is why he is called, by John, the Anti-Christ!

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I lean toward the White Horse rider being the revealing of the man of sin..as such I hold a futurist view. When the first seal is broken and the White Horse rider loosed we will see this:

2 Th 2:3-4

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I guess my real point here is that none of the seals have been broken yet. in any case the Olivet discourse was answering three separate questions. I think partial and full preterists merge them into one,hence their confusion. Let's look at the text a little more closely:

Mt 24:2-3

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Question 1: Tell us, when shall these things be?(the destruction of the temple)
Question 2: The sign of his coming
Question 3: The end of the world(age)

Jesus answered all three in the discourse and it is up to those who rightly divide the word to understand the answers.

I am rethinking my interpretation of these Horses. I could use your help in my studies. Do the horses and riders represent actual men on horseback, or larger themes and Ideas? Are the colors significant? Do all the horses appear together or separately?

Dcopymope said:

@marks

And then we have part of Gods "church" shunning all logic when comprehending the book they claim to believe in. According to that particular click, we are not supposed to use the brain God gave us to function. Its no wonder why his "church" still can't see the forest for the tree's. If there is a "body of Christ", I'm still looking for it.

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It's amazing how differently we all see it, isn't it? Mind boggling to me, really! I've read your post outlining your view just above, and it seems pretty well thought out, though much different from mine.

I want to come back to this. If I start a thread on overall timing of end times events would you like to join me? Could get pretty wild, that's why I normally hold back from that, but you seem pretty cool, and with a different view, I'm always interested in swapping ideas on why we see it the way we do. I think it's a great way to learn!

Much love!

Randy Kluth said:

Again, this is just the vision John is seeing--not the actual event.

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How do you know that? How do you know there isn't a place in the heavenlies created by God for this purpose, and that He occupies a throne, surrounded by the cheribim and seraphim, and the 24 elders (most likely chosen from the priests, I think)?

Much love!

Randy Kluth said:

We should understand them as not detail to be filled in as if a crystal ball to be analyzed and figured out. We are not to live by anticipating the future or by solving riddles. We are given enough so that we can exercise our faith in Christ in the world in which we live, interpreting things by the way God's word speaks to our hearts.

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Yes.

Well, figured out to a point. Mostly I think we need to simply read and hear the book of prophecy. To know all that it says, to be able to call to mind all the different parts, to have the overall narrative in mind, to recognize these symbols and descriptions as old friends. I think it's much more important to know what the Revelation says before delving to deeply into the meanings.

But yes, I know quite a few people who are constantly trying to match the newspaper to the Bible, and every year, "This is it! It's starting, Now!" Much better to spend our time focusing on serving others in love.

I think the Revelation was given in such a way, with it's symbols, and imagery, because God wants us in our minds to picture things in certain ways, because these ways give us the right idea about Him.

Just like Ecclesiastes gives us a correct world view from God's perspective, revealed through Solomon's experiences and understanding, the Revelation shows us Jesus.

Take in Ecclesiastes sufficiently, and I think you will find that you don't put much importance on earthly things. Take in Revelation and have a new experience of Jesus Christ. Read the book enough to meditate on it, and do that.

And sure we love to understand the intricacies of what it prophesies. I've never found two people that agree on it's meanings in all respects. But that's not to say it can't happen!

Much love!