Saved Or Predestined ???

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Renniks

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I'm sorry sir, but you are clearly mistaken. And it's not even obvious. It is written. The men of Judah are His plant (grape vines), not the grape fruit.

Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

Tong
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Are you trying to say that they were all saved, but just produced poor fruits? Because that's not the context.
 

Renniks

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I would just like to remind you that man is the vessel and God is the maker of the vessel. And that it is not the vessel that makes itself what vessel it shall be, but it is God who makes the vessel, either a vessel of wrath or of mercy.
2 Timothy 2:20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. 21So if anyone cleanses himself of what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor: sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared for every good work.
 

Renniks

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You said "God chooses all first." If by that you imply that your answer to my questions is "yes", then that settles it I guess.

What does prevenient grace that you say there got to do with my questions?

Did God choose you for salvation so that you are among the chosen people of God, or did you choose God to be among the chosen people of God?

Did God chose you first or did you chose God first?


Tong
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You create a false dichotomy. God chooses all, but not irresistibly. Not all chose him in return, so most are not saved.
 

Tong2020

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Nope, you can't depart from something you never had. This does not refer to false "Christians." And as for your last sentence, this is refuted by Paul telling us to not fall into false beliefs and if we do Christ will be of no use to us. I'm not talking about merely "sinning". I'm talking about those who fall into false beliefs (such as relying on the law instead of Christ) or nonbelief.
Before I proceed to rebut, since you skipped that part wherein you believe that you can be not born again and be born again again and cycle that until the nth born again time, I take it that even while you can't defend that doctrine by scriptures, you just abide by it and believe as you do. And so I consider that to be the end of our discussion regarding that.

So let me proceed to rebut. Well, I did not say that the "some" there refers to false brethren. I did not also say that the "some" there are true brethren. It is because such cannot be ascertained and known from the context. But now, here you say, they are not false brethren but true brethren. And that to me is unfounded and is not an honest reading of God's words.

Since the "some" could not be identified in the context, we go to the larger context to somehow tell who they most likely be. As for me, I take them as most likely false brethren. What scriptures says of the true believer is he is a child of God and abides in the doctrines of Christ. But of false brethren, this is what scriptures says:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

With regards my last sentence, it is supported by the words and teachings of the Lord Jesus Himself, who said:

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Do you believe that you have eternal life?

Consider even, what is the will of the Father:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me,
that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You sure do not believe that Jesus will lose you, right? He won't, for that is the will of the Father and He will not fail Him, and He have the power to keep you and not lose you. If you don't believe that, then would that not mean that you don't have that faith in Jesus Christ?

Tong
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Renniks

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So, you believe that God chose Jacob only for
I've answered this multiple times.
God chose Israel as the one He would work with. God said through the prophet Isaiah, “Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen” (Isaiah 44:1).

So why did God choose Israel?
There are two basic reasons:

  1. God was fulfilling a promise to Abraham.
  2. God wanted Israel to serve as a model nation.
This promise was repeated to Abraham’s son, Isaac, and to Abraham’s grandson, Jacob (Genesis 17:21; 26:24; 28:1-4, 13).

As already noted, through Abraham’s descendants would come the Messiah, the One through whom “all the families of the earth” would be blessed (Genesis 12:3).

God intended for Israel to serve—be a servant—to God and to be a blessing to other nations. Unfortunately, ancient Israel forsook God, and because of their opportunity to serve God, they often wrongfully thought of themselves as superior to other peoples.

While God chose to work with the ancient nation of Israel, this decision did not exclude people of other nations (gentiles) from coming to understand God and serve Him. God instructed the ancient Israelites that they were to respect peoples of other nationalities who came to live among God’s chosen people.

One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you” (verse 49). Later, God added: “You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Exodus 22:21).

These Jews who were the earliest Christians did not fully understand that God was also going to bring gentiles into the Church. This is part of what Paul is trying to get across to them in Romans 9.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).

Members were considered “Abraham’s seed” regardless of their race, and the body of believers was referred to as “the Israel of God” (Galatians 3:29; 6:16).

Entrance is by faith. Not by God choosing individuals.
Romans 9:30, : "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;"
 

Tong2020

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Again, that's not what the verse says. You can't fall away from the living God if you never knew him. At least try to be consistent with what the verse says.
You said "You can't fall away from the living God if you never knew him." I could also say that if God had knew you and saved you, He would never lose you, for He is able to keep you from falling. How can Jesus lose you? He died for you even. He did not die for you to save you, only to lose you at the end.

As I said, one who says he believes and some time later says he do not believe any more, or really had not believed. It's either you believe with all your heart, mind and soul, or not. True faith is not half hearted or have uncertainty or doubt.

Tong
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Tong2020

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You are looking at it backwards. They were not in right relationship with God the Father, so they refused to accept his physical manifestation in the Son. This is why Jesus said that everyone who learns from the father comes to him. Obviously, this doesn't apply to every Jewish person across the board.
You said " You are looking at it backwards." And saying that does not refute what I said. So, apparently you have no refutation to give.

And no sir, I am not looking it backwards.

So, are you saying or suggesting that John the baptist was not in right relationship with God? Not in my reading of scriptures sir.

Tong
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Getitright

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Hi

Are we chosen to be saved? Does God pre-select us according to his will?
Is salvation only for the elect?

I have faith, i believe, I've confessed and repented and accepted Christ as lord and saviour, but am i saved?

If not predestined and apart of his elect? Then all hope faith and trust in Christ is in vain, and comes to nothing.

Ephesians 4:5.
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Ephesians 11.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

No, people aren't predestined to be saved. This idea continues because passage are used out context. These passages you listed above are referring to Israel. Paul was an Israelite and is referring to them in these passages.
 

Tong2020

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Then why were the "not of God"? Could they be saved or not? You have been beating the individual election drum all along, unless you have some other explanation why they were not of God, which you have not revealed.
You asked "Then why were the "not of God"?". Let's go to the passage and see if we can find the answer to that. Here's what the passage says:

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

What we get from the passage that answers your question is that, because they are sons of the wicked one, the devil. The parable of the wheat and the tares comes to mind, wherein, as Jesus went to explain to His disciples, that the tares that the devil sowed are the sons of the wicked one.

You asked "Could they be saved or not?". The passage does not answer that question. But I am inclined to take the opinion that they can't. Why? Because they are not able to listen to Jesus' word (v.43). Now, Paul said "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". If they are not able to listen, then faith does not come to them. Now, salvation is through faith. So, the only way that they could be saved depends on God.

Tong
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Renniks

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So with Noah, you believe that God found Himself left without a choice, and was practically forced to save them? May I asked, would you say if ever God did not chose Noah to give His grace and instead destroyed all mankind, would God be unrighteous by not saving Noah?
I never said God found himself without a choice, you just made that up. I said Noah was pretty much the only choice in his generation, according to scripture. And that's why God chose him. God could have chosen to wipe out everyone and start over if there were no righteous people.
 

Tong2020

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Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).
Apparently you don't refute my (last) statement in my post. So, I take that, that you agree with it. Now, I think I have nothing more to say that I haven't already said on this issue, so, I'll just try to address some of what you said in your post here.

You said "the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe". Please go ahead and explain or substantiate your statement there.

Tong
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Renniks

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Was Abraham not saved when God, from among the other peoples, chose him and made promise to him? Would Abraham had faith if God had not chosen him and spoke His words to him? If God did not account righteousness to his faith, would Abraham not be saved?

For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Genesis 18:19


Genesis 17:9
God also said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep My covenant, you and your descendants for the generations to come.

Did they? No, they did not. They failed to keep the covenant. This is why we are told in Romans 9 that God has the right to work through them regardless. Because this was God keeping his promise to Abraham, in whatever way he needed to.

"Some time later God tested Abraham."Genesis 22

15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”

God says he kept his promise because Abraham passed the test of faith. If Abraham had not passed, would God have chosen someone else? God isn't locked into one course of action. He can change his mind as he wishes.
 

Tong2020

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Since you misunderstand this passage, maybe you should compare your understanding of it with the many places in Scripture where God claims people don't do his will. Such as:

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Matthew 23:37
Your understanding, I am sorry to say is far out. Further, what you make of those questions to mean have nothing to do at all with the point that Paul was making in that part of his epistle to the church at Rome.

I suggest you ask some friends who can help you with that passage. Better if you ask your pastor about that. If you need to, ask your friends here with you in this forum. Perhaps, those who follow you here and likes your posts could help you out.

Tong
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Renniks

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What we get from the passage that answers your question is that, because they are sons of the wicked one, the devil.
Lol, talk about a non-answer! They were sons of the devil. Why? Because they failed to have true faith in God, even though they had the Torah. We are all sons of the devil unless we are seeking after God in truth, not just in appearance. This doesn't answer the question. You say you don't think they could be saved, and yet Jesus was teaching them about himself to that very end.
 

Tong2020

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Election of Esau and Jacob as already shown was to head of nations, not to salvation. Did God choose for Israel to rebel against him? If so, why did both the Father and Son lament about their rebellion? You can't have it both ways. You make God schizophrenic. God doesn't have two wills, that's another Calvinist invention to support their weird interpretation of scripture.
The issue we are talking about, in this part of our conversation, is not what the election of Jacob and Esau was about. Rather, it is what Paul meant in the passage, with a special focus on the phrase "that the purpose of God according to election might stand" mean. So, I don't know what you are saying there. I have not spoken anything of that.

Tong
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Renniks

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Your understanding, I am sorry to say is far out. Further, what you make of those questions to mean have nothing to do at all with the point that Paul was making in that part of his epistle to the church at Rome.

I suggest you ask some friends who can help you with that passage. Better if you ask your pastor about that. If you need to, ask your friends here with you in this forum. Perhaps, those who follow you here and likes your posts could help you out.

Tong
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In other words, you have no response.
 

Tong2020

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Are you trying to say that they were all saved, but just produced poor fruits? Because that's not the context.
I am not trying to say anything but that you are mistaken in believing that the "The grapes were his people." For that is clearly refuted by Isaiah 5:7, saying that the men of Judah are His plant (grape vines), not the grape fruit. That means, you can go back in our conversation and see where you used Isaiah 5:4, probably to make a point. Well, that point is here obviously refuted as well, in as much as it had been shown that you had a wrong interpretation of Isaiah 5:4.

Tong
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Tong2020

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2 Timothy 2:20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. 21So if anyone cleanses himself of what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor: sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared for every good work.
That is obviously a different context sir. You cannot use scriptures as if to refute another scriptures sir. Again another misuse of scriptures. My statements there sir are in the context of the passage we are taking about, that is, in Romans 9, where God is the Potter and man is the vessel that the Potter makes out of the clay.

Tong
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Renniks

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I am not trying to say anything but that you are mistaken in believing that the "The grapes were his people." For that is clearly refuted by Isaiah 5:7, saying that the men of Judah are His plant (grape vines), not the grape fruit. That means, you can go back in our conversation and see where you used Isaiah 5:4, probably to make a point. Well, that point is here obviously refuted as well, in as much as it had been shown that you had a wrong interpretation of Isaiah 5:4.

Tong
R0294
Per verse 7, God owns the vineyard, which is Israel. Justice and righteousness are good grapes while oppression and a cry for help are wild grapes. (or thorns)

The point is that God did all he could do that they would be good fruit. Whether you want to say the plants are people or the nation as a whole seems irrelevant. I think you miss the point. God wasn't the cause of thier hard hearts. The question was whether God's will is always done. Not according to God himself as this verse tells us.