It was God's plan for Sodom to be an evil city? God perhaps deliberately loses an argument with Abraham, but his omniscience isn't the point. He obviously makes his plans based on what men will do. So you can not just keep claiming everything is his plan. Not when scripture says otherwise. He said he decided to bless because Abraham obeyed. That doesn't fit into him merely picking some people for his and ignoring the others.
Saved Or Predestined ???
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How would I know? I'm not God. But from what we are told, I believe God being perfectly just, cannot deny himself from blessing those who pursue him.
You asked "Was it God's plan for Israel to disobey?" When man's choice is concerned, what transpires to be the choice that people make, or a nation make, or an individual make, in the plan of God, is what obviously He allowed to happen. So, when Israel, for example, as a people, disobey God, God's plan was then the allowing of Israel to be disobedient. In that sense then, Israel's disobedience to God, is God's plan. But in another sense, Israel is responsible for his disobedience, not God.
Regarding Jeremiah 18, it is not as though God makes His plans according to what men do. That again is a misuse of the passage.
This passage is about God sending out His message to the house of Israel through the prophet Jeremiah at the time. It is actually a picture of God's gracious mercy and patient dealing, and longsuffering of God with Israel. God wanted for Israel to know this about Him. One is that, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are they in His hand. Now, this is what God had shown Jeremiah, v.4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make." God by that had shown Jeremiah that, as the vessel became damaged while in the making, God can do as the potter, make it into another vessel, AS IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE POTTER TO MAKE. Clearly, God wanted for the house of Israel to know that He is sovereign over them and can do unto Israel as it seemed good to Him. It must not escape the eyes and mind of the reader that, the clay, that is the people, had nothing whatsoever to do with that.
Now, at that time, God had shown and told Jeremiah, what seemed good to Him to do, what He intends to do with Israel, saying "Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good." He was there giving Israel the chance to repent, collectively and individually, which if they do, He will in turn relent of the disaster that He thought to bring upon them. That is God's grace and mercy on the spotlight my friend. So, that is what SEEMED GOOD TO THE POTTER (God as the Potter) to make of the marred clay (i.e. Israel). So, it is not as you say the passage is about, that God waits upon what men do and then makes His plan accordingly. Rather, it is God, like the Potter, sovereign over the clay, do to the clay as it seemed to Him, the clay having nothing at all to do with that.
Tong
R0306
What confirmation are you thanking me for? Are you again putting words into my mouth? All I did was quote the scriptures.
You said "He wasn't saying they could not choose to believe and at the same time asking why they didn't."
Consider not skipping this when you read the passage.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
"are not able to listen" and not, choose not to listen.
Tong
R0307
Simply quoting Romans 10:17, does not explain your statement as follows:
the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe
In fact, nowhere in that verse could any one read anything about the gospel there said to be the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. Nor one can read anything even about the ability to believe.
You commented "There's no magic zap by God causing some chosen few to believe." Another of your imagination that bothers your mind? That sure did not come from me. So, please refrain from saying such things which I have nothing to do with nor of this discussion.
And what you say there in your post, together with the scriptures you quoted, also does not explain your underlined statement above.
Tong
R0308
Yes, I did. Now, you say that I say that without explanation? Go over our exchanges on that and you will see that I tried to explain and show why your understanding of the passage is far out. But you seem to just not see any of that. And your saying that I say you are far out without any explanation affirms just that.
What is pointless is for me to go on explaining to you and showing you how your understanding of the passage is far out, and with you seemingly not understanding a thing that I say concerning that. That is why I suggested that you ask some people who can help you with that passage. People whom you are comfortable with, your Pastor even.
Tong
R0309
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Not for me sir.
Vessels of wrath = sinful people, the unsaved
vessels of mercy = the chosen people of God, the saved in Christ Jesus.
You asked "Why would he have to endure with great patience if he had just created them to be damned?" As your answer is, God did not create them to be damned. Their damnation was the consequence of their doing, not God's.
Tong
R0310
Paul told us who the Israel of God are in the scriptures that he was inspired to write. You have to know the Israel of God are. The Christian must be looking intently at the substance and reality which are here and now in the NT, rather than at the shadow, which were there and then in the OT. Regarding Israel therefore, we must see Israel in reality as it is revealed to us in the NT scriptures, and not the Israel in the shadow it was. And I told you this because it seems to me that you are still looking at Israel in the light of the OT scriptures when you should now be looking at Israel in the greater light of the NT scriptures, for Paul already revealed to us who the real Israel of God are that the Israel spoken in the OT scriptures are a shadow of. If you don't know it yet, you can go and check it out in this link: The "Israel of God": Who are they?
You said "Again, did God will Israel's rebellion? Straight answer, please." You asked a similar question in one of your post, "Was it God's plan for Israel to disobey?" So my answer to your question is similar to my answer there. In the plan of God, when man's choice is concerned, what transpires to be the choice that people make, or a nation make, or an individual make, is what obviously He allowed to happen. So, when Israel, for example, as a people, disobey God, God's plan was then the allowing of Israel to be disobedient. In that sense then, Israel's disobedience to God, is God's plan and His will. But in another sense, Israel is responsible for his disobedience, not God. And still in another sense, God wants for Israel to be obedient to Him.
Tong
R0311
Yes you did tell me something about that matter of "prevenient grace". But as you had presented it, it seems to be just something coming out of man's thoughts and not from scriptures. And I do not see much of it's relevance to what we are discussing about. I expressed this in one my post to you, for which you did not care to follow through.
You said here "God initiates contact". And that clearly tells us that it depends on God. God chose first. Another truth that tells us that it depends on God.
It is clear in scriptures that God do chose among men, and have in fact chose a people among the peoples of the earth, to bless, and the rest to not bless. I don't understand why many Christians refuse to acknowledge this truth about God. We read in scriptures that Jesus purposely speak to the people in parables, saying that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven were not given to them. That clearly is teaching us that, God had chosen some whom to give the mysteries of the kingdom to their knowing and not to some. What can you say about that? Now, if someone will say that, God knows in advance that they will not believe, I ask them, what then is the need to speak in parables? Yet, in every thing that God does, there is only but righteousness and wisdom and purpose and pleasure and glory.
You said "the only advantage I had was being born in a Christian family, so I didn't have to look far to find truth." But you don't see God as unjust by that, that you have an advantage over others, right? Over those millions who are born and living in North Korea perhaps, or over those millions born with very strict muslim parents perhaps, who are determined to kill their children should they convert to Christianity. Slight advantage or big? Perhaps, in this modern times, it would be less an advantage. But if you'll consider taking that with those who lived in the first century to some 1500 years later and until the 19th century, at least, that advantage becomes exponentially greater.
With the truth of the matter of salvation, that is, there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved, except the name of Jesus Christ, the Christian could only wonder about many things not yet known to him.
Tong
R0312
That God allowed Sodom to be an evil city, in that sense, is God's plan. Whatever conversation that transpired between Abraham and God, is certainly for Adam's sake and for ours who reads scriptures.
God definitely did not make His plans based on what men will do. To say otherwise is but man's imaginations driven by his limited carnal and human wisdom, forgetful who God is. Just because God had allowed man to choose according to his will and allows whatever it is that he so chose to do, does not make His plan dependent on man's choices nor His plan influenced and shaped by man's choices.
Tong
R0313
Well, my answer is that God, if He did not choose to save Noah and 7 of his family, would not be unrighteous at all. For even Noah and 7 of his family also were sinners and are condemned as well as the rest of the others. But God evidently did not do that. Obviously that was not His plan, not His will. And obviously, His plan was to give grace to Noah and his family, and save them from the flood. So, in doing what God did, He not only have demonstrated His wrath with regards sin, evil, and wickedness, but also had demonstrated among others, His righteousness, and that He is mighty, sovereign, loving, and gracious, witnessed by mankind in the persons of Noah and his family, to the praise and glory of God's name. Truly there is wisdom, purpose and good in all that God does. And what happened next and what will happen in the future, is the unfolding of His plan, as was what happened from Adam to the flood, was the unfolding of His plan up to that time.
Tong
R0314
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Oh, the doublespeak! Yes, God says he can do as he wishes in response to Israel's rebellion. But you have not really answered at all. Allowing something to happen is far different than planning it. As I already said, God is making his plans in response to what He knows men will do. That's what he says but you seem intent on denying it.
"So, when Israel, for example, as a people, disobey God, God's plan was then the allowing of Israel to be disobedient. In that sense then, Israel's disobedience to God, is God's plan. But in another sense, Israel is responsible for his disobedience, not God."
In no sense does the scripture claim here that Israel's disobedience is God's plan. You are just making that up to fit into your theology. Sovereignty is a word that gets thrown out there a lot, but what is it? A simple definition is: "supreme power or authority.". so, yeah, God has the power and authority to do as he wishes. Notice what it doesn't say: Sovereignty is not about control, although we hear this constantly preached, that God is controlling everything. Having supreme authority simply means God can do anything he likes as long as it doesn't violate his character.
BTW, I never says God was waiting to see what men would do. You made that up too. God isn't subject to time as far as we know.
The trouble with claiming everything is God's will and God's plan is that God doesn't claim that. Not even close. He laments rebellion, he claims people defy him, he acts like a jilted lover, not an all-controlling tyrant.
The problem is that they are committed to rejecting what they do not want to hear. Their intent overrides all evidence, logic, and spiritual humility (John 7:17). Jesus has pointed out that these men have access to the Scriptures (John 5:39–40), have witnessed His miracles (John 5:36; John 8:18; John 3:1–2), have heard human testimony (John 5:33–34), and have heard the very words of One who came from heaven (John 8:23).
They are not able to hear because they have closed their ears. Well, some of them had:
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.
Jesus wasn't talking to people incapable of believing on him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?
Consider not skipping all the times in this passage where it's confirmed that they could and some did believe in Jesus.
So belief [cometh] of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
That's exactly what it says. Belief comes by hearing the gospel.
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
New Living Translation
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.
English Standard Version
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Berean Study Bible
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Berean Literal Bible
So faith is from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
New American Standard Bible
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
New King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
King James Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Christian Standard Bible
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
Contemporary English Version
No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.
Good News Translation
So then, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message comes through preaching Christ.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
International Standard Version
Consequently, faith results from listening, and listening results through the word of the Messiah.
NET Bible
Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.
New Heart English Bible
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore faith is from the hearing ear, and the hearing ear is from the word of God.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.
New American Standard 1977
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
King James 2000 Bible
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
American King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
American Standard Version
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
Darby Bible Translation
So faith then [is] by a report, but the report by God's word.
English Revised Version
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Webster's Bible Translation
So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Weymouth New Testament
And this proves that faith comes from a Message heard, and that the Message comes through its having been spoken by Christ.
World English Bible
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Young's Literal Translation
so then the faith is by a report, and the report through a saying of God,
Study Bible
The Word Brings Salvation
…16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”…
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
Job 42:5
My ears had heard of You, but now my eyes have seen You.
Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:5
Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the Law, or because you hear and believe?
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we continually thank God that in receiving the word of God from us, you did not accept it as the word of men, but as the true word of God--the word now at work in you who believe.
Hebrews 4:2
For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.
Treasury of Scripture
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Luke 16:29-31
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them…
and hearing.
Jeremiah 23:28,29
The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD…
Mark 4:24
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
Luke 8:11,21
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God…
Lexicon
Consequently,
ἄρα (ara)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive.
faith [comes]
πίστις (pistis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
by
ἐξ (ex)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.
hearing,
ἀκοῆς (akoēs)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 189: Hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor. From akouo; hearing.
and
δὲ (de)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 1161: A primary particle; but, and, etc.
hearing
ἀκοὴ (akoē)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 189: Hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor. From akouo; hearing.
by
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.
[the] word
ῥήματος (rhēmatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 4487: From rheo; an utterance, ; by implication, a matter or topic; with a negative naught whatever.
Not if your first statement is correct. If God is chosing some for salvation, by default he is choosing the rest for damnation. And if I am chosen, that means someone else is chosen for damnation because of me being saved. Paul says he could wish to be damned if it saved his fellow Jews. Apparently, you believe Paul is more merciful than God is.
But in the passage I quoted God was talking to his nation Israel, not to saved gentiles in the future. So all this is irrelevant to the discussion of the Isaiah verse.
No, it comes from scripture.
The words prevenient and preventing come from a Latin root word that means to precede. Prevenient or preventing grace then is simply the grace that comes before. Before what? Justifying grace.
John 12:32 declares that all men are drawn to Christ.
John 16:8-11 we see that the ongoing ministry of the Spirit is to convict the entire world of its sin of unbelief (the suppression of truth cf. Rom. 1:18-32).
Titus 2:11 clearly states that God's grace has appeared to all men but from this passage we cannot conclude that all men will be saved. Yet the grace spoken of here cannot be explained as simply a common grace. This is because the purpose of the grace spoken of was to bring people to salvation (something that common grace in Reformed thought is never said to do).
In Acts 10 we see the Holy Spirit working with devout Cornelius and causing Peter to go to him. Cornelius was not a New Testament Christian at this time, but was a "God-fearer" because he sought to serve God in spirit and in truth.
I could go on, but hopefully this will show you that this is a biblical concept.
This is nonsense. Does God plan rape? Did God plan the fall of man? Of course not. Show me where scripture says God plans evil.
Yet God says things happen that never entered his mind.
"And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin," (Jer. 32:35).
God says he regretted:
Regarding the incredible wickedness of humanity before Noah, for example, we read, “The Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart” (Gen 6:6).
Also God regretted making Saul king:
God had intended to bless Saul and his descendants (1 Sam 13:13), but Saul’s behavior as king altered God’s intentions. After his appointed king chose a rebellious course of action, the Lord told Samuel, “I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me (1 Sam 15:11).
So saying everything is God's plan just isn't biblical.
And so it seems, you do really actually now believe that God is not omniscient and perfectly wise, makes mistakes, and could be caught by surprise. Well, I am beginning to realize now that we know God differently. And as I see it (at least it is not a matter of the heart), it is because of the misuse of scriptures, such as which I had shown of you regarding Isaiah 5:4, Romans 9:19, among others, in our exchange. And now with the misuse of the scriptures you quoted here. For example, with the misuse of 1 Sam. 13:13 and 1 Sam. 15:11, one could believe that God could really do make mistakes and when He does, He regrets having done what He had done, which in all likelihood will lead one to think that God practically regrets making every king He made king who did not believe in Him and did not do according to His purpose in him, and in all likelihood, even regrets every man who do not believe in Him and do not do His will, for that matter and in that sense. He is convinced, as you appear to be, that such thought is correct, in that he finds support in yet another misused scriptures in Gen. 6:6. Not realizing that such thought and understanding, in all likelihood, leads one to the conclusion that God regretted to having created Adam and Eve, to having created Lucifer, and ultimately, to having created at all, that it was all a one huge mistake. And it was all His fault. He could not blame anybody for that, could He? Well, that is, in the final analysis, what that all boils down to.
Do such understanding not stop you even for a minute, to reconsider that such does not add up to the good divine nature of God?
So what do you say is God's plan in your reading of scriptures, considering all that you said God is according to your misuse of said scriptures, there in your post?
Tong
R0315
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