Understanding the Olivet Discourse

Randy Kluth said:

What's absurd is your denial of what the actual words of Luke 21 say! You *never* addressed that, though I've quoted it several times. It confirms that what Jesus spoke of was indeed the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by an invading army, leading to an age-long Jewish Diaspora. But you have no answer for that, and so you call me "stupid?"

I'm not going to call you stupid, but I will say that you're being evasive if you can't explain to me what Luke 21 meant when it says this! As such, and if I'm right, then this Discourse is 1st and primarily about the destruction of the temple, and not about the 2nd Coming. The question about the 2nd Coming came from the Disciples who wanted to under the destruction of the temple in context with the "Jewish Hope," or "the Messianic restoration of Israel."

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What's absurd is YOUR denial of the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture with always wanting to abuse the Luke 21 Scripture. All 3 examples of Christ's Olivet discourse goes together.

I've addressed this matter continuously with written Scripture. Preterists like you have rejected the Scripture continously.

I don't know what kind of false baloney you're trying to pull with Luke 21, but it won't work. The timing of the armies surrounding Jerusalem it's talking about is at the very END OF THIS WORLD, which is what that "days of vengeance" is about. Because you act like you don't know what that "days of vengeance" is about, it shows you don't really know what's written in the Old Testament prophets about the end of this world.

Scripture in BLUE = Christ's 1st coming
Scripture in GREEN = Christ's 2nd coming at the end of this world

Isa 61:1-4
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
KJV

CadyandZoe said:

Isn't there a difference between Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 9:27? Daniel 11:31 seems to be talking about the desecration of the temple, whereas Daniel 9:27 seems to be talking about the destruction of the temple. Is that the same thing or different?

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The idea that the "abomination of desolation" is about destruction of the temple is a doctrine of men. That is not what the abomination in the Book of Daniel is about.

Here's the NIV version of Daniel 9:27 which many seem to like:

Dan 9:26-27
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
NIV

That is not about destruction of the temple, it is about spiritual desolating it with an idol. You should study Ezekiel 8 & 9, because it contains a warning about the end of this world involving idol worship in Jerusalem, within a Jewish temple.

Randy Kluth said:

You are conflating the Day of the Lord with the destruction of the temple. Jesus' Disciples did the same, which is why they asked about the Lord's Coming when told, by the Lord, that the temple would be destroyed. I'm not going to keep asking you to address Luke 21. If you refuse to, I'll assume that you have no answer.

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His disciples didn't conflate anything, nor have I; they knew about the events of the "day of the Lord" written in the OT prophets about the end of this world. That was the basis of their question, i.e., they knew a destruction on the last day of this world was coming. Even Apostles Paul and Peter taught about it.

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

Isa 2:12-19
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,

14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,

15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,

16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
KJV

Isa 13:6-11
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
KJV

Randy Kluth said:

Yes, all 3 versions of the O.D. go together and say the same things, using slightly different language to express the same story. All 3 versions can be understood to refer to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, particularly when viewing the specific language of Luke 21, which describes an army gathering around Jerusalem, leading to an age-long Jewish diaspora.

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No, all 3 versions of Christ's Olivet discourse do NOT... say exactly the same things, nor do they contradict each other like men's doctrines interpret them, especially by Preterists/Historicists.

The Luke 21 version doesn't mention the placing of the "abomination of desolation". And the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions don't mention the armies surrounding Jerusalem with the "days of vengeance". Thus all 3 must be put together, and nothing left out, including the different info given between them. And they all are pointing to the last days at the end of this world just prior to Christ's return, and not 70 A.D.

I am not a Preterist. I do share with Preterists and with the Church Fathers belief that the Olivet Discourse and Dan 9 referred to the generation which saw the city and the sanctuary destroyed. Dan 9.26

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Doesn't matter, Preterist, Historicist, I see little difference between the two. Both falsely try to move Bible prophecy meant only for the very end of this world back to some time in past history. And the early Church fathers of the 1st century were NOT Preterists, so it's silly to even infer that. What they actually believed is what I have showed, that Christ was giving His disciples (and His Church in ALL generations) the Signs of the end leading up to His return. So what you just told there is a fib.

You seem to have no knowledge of the history of the interpretation of Luke 21. I refer to that because it identifies the Jewish Diaspora as taking place *after* the destruction of Jerusalem. And the Jewish Diaspora started, in this case, after 70 AD, although the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles had taken place much earlier.

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Uh, what? You think I don't know what happened to the Jews in Jerusalem when the Romans sacked it in 69 A.D.? Jerusalem has been sieged something like 27 times. The final 28th time will be when the coming Antichrist claims it, demanding to be worshiped as God.

The point is, if this Jewish Diaspora began after 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem Luke referred to must've taken place in 70 AD!

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No, the real point is that Christ's disciples were asking Jesus about the sign of His 2nd coming, and of the end of the world, as written...

Matt 24:2-3
2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

Did Jesus return in 69 A.D.? No, of course not. So why try to say that above was history?? To go against that as written means to DENY that Scripture.

I'm asking you about Luke 21--not Isa 61. To confuse the interpretation of one passage with the interpretaiton of another is not doing an exposition of the passage at hand.

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And I answered that, you just are in the habit of denying the Scriptures as they are written.

Randy Kluth said:

I beg to differ with you. Jesus referred to this passage when he said the AoD would "stand in the holy place." This is, in another words, Rome setting up the AoD in the holy place. It was the placement of a Roman siege in the vicinity of the holy city, threatening the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary," as indicated in Dan 9.26.

Dan 9.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

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Jesus referred to the Daniel 11:31 passage about the "abomination of desolation", which just so happens to be the SAME subject of the Daniel 9:27 setting up of that abomination idol in the temple. I showed you the Scripture man, what more do you want?

Dan 9:26-27
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
NIV

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

All the same event that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel.

The Romans NEVER got possession of the 2nd temple before it burned down!!! The Romans NEVER setup an idol abomination 'inside' the temple spiritually desolating it! Antiochus IV served as a blueprint for the placing of an idol abomination 'inside' the temple. And the doctrine of men YOU have been following said the Dan.11:31 Scripture was history about Antiochus IV! So you just can't help contradicting yourself.

Davy said:

The idea that the "abomination of desolation" is about destruction of the temple is a doctrine of men. That is not what the abomination in the Book of Daniel is about.

Here's the NIV version of Daniel 9:27 which many seem to like:

Dan 9:26-27
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
NIV

That is not about destruction of the temple, it is about spiritual desolating it with an idol. You should study Ezekiel 8 & 9, because it contains a warning about the end of this world involving idol worship in Jerusalem, within a Jewish temple.

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I don't agree with the NIV translation. Even so, take a look at verse 26.

Daniel 9:26
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood;

Doesn't this speak of destruction? It seems like it.

CadyandZoe said:

I don't agree with the NIV translation. Even so, take a look at verse 26.

Daniel 9:26
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood;

Doesn't this speak of destruction? It seems like it.

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I don't like a lot of the NIV translation myself, I mostly rely on the KJV, but on that Dan.9:27 verse the NIV is right on the money.

Dan 9:26
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV

The 69th week of the prophecy ended with Christ's crucifixion. That part in green is about the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in 69 A.D. But the Dan.9:27 "one week", the final 70th week of the prophecy, is about the end of this world.

The "end" coming "with a flood" is a metaphor NOT about the Romans, but about Antichrist's army at the end of this world. Isaiah 8:7-8 gives us some historical blueprints about that flood idea for the end. Jeremiah 46 also gives examples using flood waters of that coming "day of the Lord" at the very end of this world. I think that's enough evidence, I'm not going to spoon feed.

Davy said:

I don't like a lot of the NIV translation myself, I mostly rely on the KJV, but on that Dan.9:27 verse the NIV is right on the money.

Dan 9:26
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV

The 69th week of the prophecy ended with Christ's crucifixion. That part in green is about the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in 69 A.D. But the Dan.9:27 "one week", the final 70th week of the prophecy, is about the end of this world.

The "end" coming "with a flood" is a metaphor NOT about the Romans, but about Antichrist's army at the end of this world. Isaiah 8:7-8 gives us some historical blueprints about that flood idea for the end. Jeremiah 46 also gives examples using flood waters of that coming "day of the Lord" at the very end of this world. I think that's enough evidence, I'm not going to spoon feed.

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Why do you think there is a gap in the 70 weeks?

CadyandZoe said:

Why do you think there is a gap in the 70 weeks?

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Focusing on the idea of 'gaps' can create a wall in your Bible study. If you somehow think the idea of time gaps don't really exist in God's Word, then you will not be able to rightly divide God's Word as written. That is the real purpose of men's doctrines against the 'idea' of Biblical time gaps, i.e., to interrupt your understanding.

Zechariah 9:9-10 is one Biblical proof of a time gap written in God's Word. Verse 9 is about Christ's 1st coming. The 10th verse is about Christ's future 2nd coming to reign.

Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

Jesus' 1st coming to Jerusalem was lowly, riding upon an ass (Matthew 21:5). He came then meek as a Lamb to be sacrificed for us.

His 2nd coming per the Zech.9:10 verse will be to take reign over all the earth and over all peoples. Revelation 19 shows He is coming the next time with a sword that cuts both ways, which is opposite of the idea of meek as a Lamb.

Time Gap:
Jesus' 1st coming was in 4 B.C. to 29 A.D.

Today is 2020, so that minus 29 A.D. would be 1,991 years so far, and His 2nd coming is still yet to happen.

One cannot just say it's possible His 2nd coming happened with His appearance right after His resurrection, because there are many specific events tied with the true day of His 2nd coming, and those events did not happen in the Apostle's days. One of them is the above example I gave, His future reign over ALL the earth, and ending the battle bow, which is still yet to happen. Zechariah 14 gives even more events linked with that, so we could do this on and on and on, for there are many Scripture witnesses of this.

Randy Kluth said:

You've just identified your problem. It is an interpretive fallacy to assume that the same term means the same thing in every place it is used. The AoD is used in more than one place in the book of Daniel, and it is a *different AoD* in Dan 11 than it is in Dan 9.

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Ah, ain't that fancy, "interpretive fallacy"? what's that? a screw up in my reading comprehension?

No, I did not wrongly interpret the Scripture.

And no, there are NOT multiple TYPES of the abomination of desolation written in the Book of Daniel. They ALL... refer to the SAME idea of an IDOL ABOMINATION setup in false worship.

Randy Kluth said:

Yes, all 3 versions of the O.D. go together and say the same things, using slightly different language to express the same story. All 3 versions can be understood to refer to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, particularly when viewing the specific language of Luke 21, which describes an army gathering around Jerusalem, leading to an age-long Jewish diaspora.



I am not a Preterist. I do share with Preterists and with the Church Fathers belief that the Olivet Discourse and Dan 9 referred to the generation which saw the city and the sanctuary destroyed. Dan 9.26



You seem to have no knowledge of the history of the interpretation of Luke 21. I refer to that because it identifies the Jewish Diaspora as taking place *after* the destruction of Jerusalem. And the Jewish Diaspora started, in this case, after 70 AD, although the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles had taken place much earlier.

The point is, if this Jewish Diaspora began after 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem Luke referred to must've taken place in 70 AD!



I'm asking you about Luke 21--not Isa 61. To confuse the interpretation of one passage with the interpretaiton of another is not doing an exposition of the passage at hand.

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How many nations were there in 70AD? How many came against Jerusalem?

The temple was obsolete in AD30. It could have set obsolete for 1900 years. Who cares when it was destroyed? If you think anything in Revelation had to do with 70AD when it was suspect that not all the churches had even been given John's letter yet, nor had the whole church received it, that is nuts.

Nothing in the Bible indicates any one at the time saw a fullfilment in 70AD, even if it was. Just like no one accepts covid19 as the first seal of Revelation 6, and it was. The church will look down from heaven in hindsight, claiming covid19 was the first seal. They would all say of course, remember those crazy Preterist? 2nd century Christians will laugh, saying, "nope."

Davy said:

Focusing on the idea of 'gaps' can create a wall in your Bible study. If you somehow think the idea of time gaps don't really exist in God's Word, then you will not be able to rightly divide God's Word as written. That is the real purpose of men's doctrines against the 'idea' of Biblical time gaps, i.e., to interrupt your understanding.

Zechariah 9:9-10 is one Biblical proof of a time gap written in God's Word. Verse 9 is about Christ's 1st coming. The 10th verse is about Christ's future 2nd coming to reign.

Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

Jesus' 1st coming to Jerusalem was lowly, riding upon an ass (Matthew 21:5). He came then meek as a Lamb to be sacrificed for us.

His 2nd coming per the Zech.9:10 verse will be to take reign over all the earth and over all peoples. Revelation 19 shows He is coming the next time with a sword that cuts both ways, which is opposite of the idea of meek as a Lamb.

Time Gap:
Jesus' 1st coming was in 4 B.C. to 29 A.D.

Today is 2020, so that minus 29 A.D. would be 1,991 years so far, and His 2nd coming is still yet to happen.

One cannot just say it's possible His 2nd coming happened with His appearance right after His resurrection, because there are many specific events tied with the true day of His 2nd coming, and those events did not happen in the Apostle's days. One of them is the above example I gave, His future reign over ALL the earth, and ending the battle bow, which is still yet to happen. Zechariah 14 gives even more events linked with that, so we could do this on and on and on, for there are many Scripture witnesses of this.

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Forgive me. I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking whether time gaps exist. I was asking you why you think a gap exists in Daniel's seventy week prophecy. Gabriel says, "your people have seventy weeks" It seems to me that when the seventy weeks expired, that was the end of it. But maybe I'm missing something.

CadyandZoe said:

Forgive me. I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking whether time gaps exist. I was asking you why you think a gap exists in Daniel's seventy week prophecy. Gabriel says, "your people have seventy weeks" It seems to me that when the seventy weeks expired, that was the end of it. But maybe I'm missing something.

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The fact that Messiah would be cut off on the 69th week? Daniel 9:25-26.

25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks,Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing.

7 weeks plus 62 weeks is 69 weeks.
Then verse 27

27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

CadyandZoe said:

Forgive me. I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking whether time gaps exist. I was asking you why you think a gap exists in Daniel's seventy week prophecy. Gabriel says, "your people have seventy weeks" It seems to me that when the seventy weeks expired, that was the end of it. But maybe I'm missing something.

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You missed the fact that there was 40 years from the Crucifixion until the Roman conquest. That is a time gap sufficient to blow apart the notion that the 70 'weeks' are consecutive, but it isn't the actual gap of 2000 years that we have had since that time.
Proved by Daniel 9:24b being not fulfilled yet.