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(just for reference to start with)
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QUOTE="Joseph77, post: 725940, member: 8613"]GOOD STARTING POINT for some other thread ..... (not related to this thread OP, except maybe as a tangent)
Thus, let us proceed to a new thread...... called God's Word is Truth
(although the last thread with a title for Truth, too many UNtruthful posters from a false religions posted there, overwhelming it) ...
If that happens again, we can just put on 'ignore' all the unrelated posters for the time of the thread, eh? Okay ?
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QUOTE="Eternally Grateful, post: 725933, member: 8558"]this is the problem
You think because they go to some school. You know what they believe, But how did you come up with that conclusion? What makes you think a person who went to school A believes everything that school taught? and what makes you think if they went to that school, they even still follow that schools theology?
You want to learn about what people believe, Stop. Listen to what they say, Don't make assumptions. if you have a question. Ask them to get clarification. If they get mad because you ask them, well that's on them (and you, if you get mad when people ask you questions) Don;t assume you know anything, always remember, when you assume, what you are in effect doing. And then based on this information, If you disagree with them, Share with them WHY you disagree. and be open for them to respond knowing you may have taught them something, and might show them what they never knew before. Or they may still disagree with you, And be open for them to respond to you in kind showing their disagreement and why
That is what bible discussion should be like.[/QUOTE
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Shall we proceed?
(God Willing, I'll have some time to do this, though maybe sporadically when I have internet access)
I'll be gone for hours at times,
as there is LIFE
outside of internet)
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QUOTE="Joseph77, post: 725940, member: 8613"]GOOD STARTING POINT for some other thread ..... (not related to this thread OP, except maybe as a tangent)
Thus, let us proceed to a new thread...... called God's Word is Truth
(although the last thread with a title for Truth, too many UNtruthful posters from a false religions posted there, overwhelming it) ...
If that happens again, we can just put on 'ignore' all the unrelated posters for the time of the thread, eh? Okay ?
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QUOTE="Eternally Grateful, post: 725933, member: 8558"]this is the problem
You think because they go to some school. You know what they believe, But how did you come up with that conclusion? What makes you think a person who went to school A believes everything that school taught? and what makes you think if they went to that school, they even still follow that schools theology?
You want to learn about what people believe, Stop. Listen to what they say, Don't make assumptions. if you have a question. Ask them to get clarification. If they get mad because you ask them, well that's on them (and you, if you get mad when people ask you questions) Don;t assume you know anything, always remember, when you assume, what you are in effect doing. And then based on this information, If you disagree with them, Share with them WHY you disagree. and be open for them to respond knowing you may have taught them something, and might show them what they never knew before. Or they may still disagree with you, And be open for them to respond to you in kind showing their disagreement and why
That is what bible discussion should be like.[/QUOTE
==============================================================[/QUOTE
Shall we proceed?
(God Willing, I'll have some time to do this, though maybe sporadically when I have internet access)
I'll be gone for hours at times,
as there is LIFE
outside of internet)
excerpt from internet search:
"That Jacob worshiped Yahweh so readily is evidence that Jacob was already a man of God. Jacob—The Righteous Deceiver. Yes, Jacob was a deceiver. But deception is not always sinful. In this case, Jacob was the righteous deceiver. Along with the help of his mother Rebekah, Jacob deceived .."
"That Jacob worshiped Yahweh so readily is evidence that Jacob was already a man of God. Jacob—The Righteous Deceiver. Yes, Jacob was a deceiver. But deception is not always sinful. In this case, Jacob was the righteous deceiver. Along with the help of his mother Rebekah, Jacob deceived .."
If EG wants to present ANYTHING from SCRIPTURE to verify their claims about Jacob or Esau or both....
here is the place to do so. If they don't know anything from Scripture to do so, perhaps someone else can give them some help to do so, from Scripture ?
If they are verified by Scripture - good. That is what we seek.
here is the place to do so. If they don't know anything from Scripture to do so, perhaps someone else can give them some help to do so, from Scripture ?
If they are verified by Scripture - good. That is what we seek.
"Thy word is truth" (John 17.17); 'Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path' (Psalm 119.105).
Good - How does that apply to EG's beliefs about Jacob and Esau specifically ? Or is it simply agreeing that it is and must be from God's Word, our beliefs, to hold to and stand by and testify to?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I know you're saying that Jacob was a righteous deceiver but I still disagree. It's Esau who is the deceiver.
The Bible makes it quite clear that Esau lacked faith but I don't recall any time he deceived anyone.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I agree, if we look at the lives it was Jacob who deceived Esau and his father.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I think Esau was being deceptive, not only to his Father when he sold his firstborn rights to Jacob but and tried to get the blessing of the firstborn rights whe he knew they belonged to Jacob.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Technically they belonged to him. Jacob got them by his own desception
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
They belonged to Esau before he sold them, yes. Esau was firstborn and entitled to the firstborn rights but as firstborn Esau had the right to sell his firstborn rights, which he did, for a bowl of stew, to Jacob. That was a legal transaction. Esau wasn't forced in any way to sell his firstborn rights. So when Esau was trying to get the firstborn blessing Esau knew it didn't belong to him anymore.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yet Jacob dressed up as Esau and tricked his father into giving him the blessing. Because even his mother knew it all depended on his father..
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Yet you find nowhere in Scripture where God condemned Jacob for what he did, but God does speak out against what Esau did. After all the scriptures warned us to not being like Esau who had no appreciation for spiritual things.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
That does not excuse Jacob from His sin
Both Jacob and Esau would stand condemned if they stood in front of God apart from Grace
These verses are very telling: -
The blessing was being offer to Esau because Isaac love the taste of wild game. Isaac had forgotten the Words that God had prophetically given to Rebekah where God had indicated where the Blessing was to go.
It is Esau who claims that Jacob had deceived him out of his birthright, but the Book of Jasher perhaps give a more plausible reason why Esau was so willing to sell his birthright as it presents the background story as to why Esau rushed into the tent and demanded some food from Jacob. He needed an alibi to hid behind if the people who Esau was possibly fleeing from, should arrive at Isaac's tents. Esau and Jacob were probably 16 years old when this happened.
The Blessing that Isaac wanted to give to Esau probably occurred around the time shortly after the twins were 40 years old.
Shalom
Genesis 25:27-28: - 27 So the boys grew. And Esau was a skillful hunter, a man of the field; but Jacob was a mild man, dwelling in tents. 28 And Isaac loved Esau because he ate of his game, but Rebekah loved Jacob.
The blessing was being offer to Esau because Isaac love the taste of wild game. Isaac had forgotten the Words that God had prophetically given to Rebekah where God had indicated where the Blessing was to go.
Genesis 25:23: - 23 And the Lord said to her:
"Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger."
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger."
It is Esau who claims that Jacob had deceived him out of his birthright, but the Book of Jasher perhaps give a more plausible reason why Esau was so willing to sell his birthright as it presents the background story as to why Esau rushed into the tent and demanded some food from Jacob. He needed an alibi to hid behind if the people who Esau was possibly fleeing from, should arrive at Isaac's tents. Esau and Jacob were probably 16 years old when this happened.
The Blessing that Isaac wanted to give to Esau probably occurred around the time shortly after the twins were 40 years old.
Shalom
The problem is that this account contradicts what the Bible says.
Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted. And Esau said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!” (Therefore his name was called Edom.)
Genesis 25:29,30 ESV
Esau had come in from working in the field and was exhausted. There is no mention of anyone looking for him.
It is my understanding that Esau was a hunter of game in the field, and travelled into the countryside to find wild game to kill and eat. He also gave Isaac, His father, some of the game that he had killed to eat as well, and Isaac regarded/loved Esau more than he regarded/loved Jacob.
These verses, which I had previously posted above tell us this: -
Genesis 25:27-28: - 27 So the boys grew. And Esau was a skillful hunter, a man of the field; but Jacob was a mild man, dwelling in tents. 28 And Isaac loved Esau because he ate of his game, but Rebekah loved Jacob.
The Book of Jasher, chapter 27, gives us an account of Esau selling his birthright to Jacob when he had come into the tent of Jacob.
In this account we are told that Esau had killed Nimrod and taken his clothes of office which his father had given him, the very skins that God had given Adam to cover him.
Now whether or not we accept this version as to why Esau sold his birthright is immaterial, the Bible is silent as to what Esau was doing before he entered Jacob's tent and asked for some of what Jacob was preparing to eat.
Genesis 25:29-34: - Esau Sells His Birthright
(Heb 12:16)
29 Now Jacob cooked a stew; and Esau came in from the field, and he was weary. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, "Please feed me with that same red stew, for I am weary." Therefore his name was called Edom.
31 But Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright as of this day."
32 And Esau said, "Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?"
33 Then Jacob said, "Swear to me as of this day."
So he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 And Jacob gave Esau bread and stew of lentils; then he ate and drank, arose, and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.
(Heb 12:16)
29 Now Jacob cooked a stew; and Esau came in from the field, and he was weary. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, "Please feed me with that same red stew, for I am weary." Therefore his name was called Edom.
31 But Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright as of this day."
32 And Esau said, "Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?"
33 Then Jacob said, "Swear to me as of this day."
So he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 And Jacob gave Esau bread and stew of lentils; then he ate and drank, arose, and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.
Why did Esau say to Jacob, "Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?" The passage is silent as to why Esau would think that he was about to die.
The passage is also silent as to what it meant when it states, "Now Jacob cooked a stew; and Esau came in from the field, and he was weary."
The Bible is silent as to the age of the twin brothers in this passage and also as to what it means when it tells us that Esau had come in from the field. You have placed your interpretation on the passage as to what Esau had been doing and where he had been before entering Jacob tent and asking for some food.
The problem is the interpretation and subsequent understanding that you have placed on the above passage.
The information in Chapter 27 of the Book of Jasher, does not, as you claim, contradict the above passage, but it does call into question your interpretation and understanding from the silence of the passage with regards to what the background story might have been.
The passage from the Book of Jasher suggests that Esau tried to take, by force, God's purposes for his life whereas, Jacob quietly was waiting for God's Blessing to be given to him.
Shalom
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