Saved Or Predestined ???

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Tong2020

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Oh, the doublespeak! Yes, God says he can do as he wishes in response to Israel's rebellion. But you have not really answered at all. Allowing something to happen is far different than planning it. As I already said, God is making his plans in response to what He knows men will do. That's what he says but you seem intent on denying it.

"So, when Israel, for example, as a people, disobey God, God's plan was then the allowing of Israel to be disobedient. In that sense then, Israel's disobedience to God, is God's plan. But in another sense, Israel is responsible for his disobedience, not God."

In no sense does the scripture claim here that Israel's disobedience is God's plan. You are just making that up to fit into your theology. Sovereignty is a word that gets thrown out there a lot, but what is it? A simple definition is: "supreme power or authority.". so, yeah, God has the power and authority to do as he wishes. Notice what it doesn't say: Sovereignty is not about control, although we hear this constantly preached, that God is controlling everything. Having supreme authority simply means God can do anything he likes as long as it doesn't violate his character.
BTW, I never says God was waiting to see what men would do. You made that up too. God isn't subject to time as far as we know.
The trouble with claiming everything is God's will and God's plan is that God doesn't claim that. Not even close. He laments rebellion, he claims people defy him, he acts like a jilted lover, not an all-controlling tyrant.
No double speak, as you think and say there, Renniks.

You said "Allowing something to happen is far different than planning it." It may be that you can't understand in the same way I and most Christians do, because you think that how God plans is the same as how man plans things. God created creatures like angels and men, with the freedom to do what they will to do, within the boundaries God had set upon each respectively. And doing so, considered in His plan then, are the choices that these creatures make. And what we can understand regarding this, is that in God's plan, God allowed every choice that each of these creatures make, to happen. It could not be anything else but that for freedom of choice to be real.

You said "As I already said, God is making his plans in response to what He knows men will do." Of which I have refuted in the very post that you make this statement of yours in response to. So saying that is not a counter refutation but is merely repeating your assertion.

You said "In no sense does the scripture claim here that Israel's disobedience is God's plan." You may see scriptures as not claiming that. However, the reality of Israel's disobedience, and scriptures' testimony of it, with the truth that nothing in this world happens without the knowledge and permission of God, who created all and sustains all things, and the very fact that men are responsible for the choices they make, could only point to that. And I repeat, to be clear, Israel's disobedience to God, is God's plan, in the sense that God allowed them to be disobedient. Israel is responsible for his disobedience, not God.

You said "Sovereignty is a word that gets thrown out there a lot, but what is it? A simple definition is: "supreme power or authority." The Bible is the best place that could tell us about that. Let me give you a few verses that speaks of the sovereignty of God. Or if you don't like that term "sovereignty", take it as about "the supreme power or authority" of God then.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalms 115:
3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.

Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.


Just say if you need more. They are in your Bible.

You said "Sovereignty is not about control". Would you say God is sovereign or not? I am quite sure you'd say He is. If you say that sovereignty is not about control, then please tell us what it is that is about control.

You said "Having supreme authority simply means God can do anything he likes as long as it doesn't violate his character." It seems you now have the nerve to limit God or sort of confine His sovereignty. And since you say that, I assume you believe you know when and what violates the character of God, right?
So, let me ask you a few questions relative to that. Tell us, did God violate His character, perhaps His loving, merciful, and longsuffering character, when He destroyed all mankind, saved a few, and killed all flesh on the earth in the flood at Noah's time? Did God violate His character when He created Eve, despite knowing what Eve will do by her own free choice, and what evil it will bring to mankind? And a whole lot more of this kind of questions. But I think that will be enough for now, to make my point.

Tong
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Tong2020

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The problem is that they are committed to rejecting what they do not want to hear. Their intent overrides all evidence, logic, and spiritual humility (John 7:17). Jesus has pointed out that these men have access to the Scriptures (John 5:39–40), have witnessed His miracles (John 5:36; John 8:18; John 3:1–2), have heard human testimony (John 5:33–34), and have heard the very words of One who came from heaven (John 8:23).

They are not able to hear because they have closed their ears. Well, some of them had:
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

Jesus wasn't talking to people incapable of believing on him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”


45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?

Consider not skipping all the times in this passage where it's confirmed that they could and some did believe in Jesus.
What is not plain in this question of Jesus, which reads: "Why do you not understand My speech?" And what isn't plain in the answer of Jesus to His own question, which reads: "Because you are not able to listen to My word."? Why would one want that to mean anything else such as to be a choice made by the person? The problem is clear and plain. They ARE NOT ABLE, period. For whatever the reason is behind that, it does not change what Jesus plainly and clearly said there, that they ARE NOT ABLE. To change that is first to make them able. Then, they could actually throw in their freedom to choose.

You said "They are not able to hear because they have closed their ears." But if that is true, then Jesus' words would be false. For by closing their ears, it does not mean that they are not able to listen, but that, they choose not to listen. To not be able to listen and to chose not to listen are two very different things.


You said "Jesus wasn't talking to people incapable of believing on him." How sure are you with your statement there? I believe you have not put much thought on that. For one, scriptures speak about God hardening people, such that, hearing they will hear and shall not understand, and seeing they will see and not perceive; and speaks about God having given up people to uncleanness, to vile passions, and over to a debased mind. Of course that is not to say that God created them that way, but that God had given them up to such with good reasons of course.

You said "Consider not skipping all the times in this passage where it's confirmed that they could and some did believe in Jesus." I did not. All that you have shown there only shows that those said to have believed in verse 30 in fact really had not believed. Apparently, that is not the believing that Jesus talks about sir. That's why context is important, where in the very next verses Jesus told them "31 If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Tong
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Tong2020

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So belief [cometh] of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

That's exactly what it says. Belief comes by hearing the gospel.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

New Living Translation
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

English Standard Version
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Berean Study Bible
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
So faith is from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

New American Standard Bible
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

New King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

King James Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Christian Standard Bible
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

Contemporary English Version
No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.

Good News Translation
So then, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message comes through preaching Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

International Standard Version
Consequently, faith results from listening, and listening results through the word of the Messiah.

NET Bible
Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

New Heart English Bible
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore faith is from the hearing ear, and the hearing ear is from the word of God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.

New American Standard 1977
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

King James 2000 Bible
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American Standard Version
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.

Darby Bible Translation
So faith then [is] by a report, but the report by God's word.

English Revised Version
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Webster's Bible Translation
So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Weymouth New Testament
And this proves that faith comes from a Message heard, and that the Message comes through its having been spoken by Christ.

World English Bible
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Young's Literal Translation
so then the faith is by a report, and the report through a saying of God,
Study Bible
The Word Brings Salvation
…16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”…
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
Job 42:5
My ears had heard of You, but now my eyes have seen You.

Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5
Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the Law, or because you hear and believe?

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we continually thank God that in receiving the word of God from us, you did not accept it as the word of men, but as the true word of God--the word now at work in you who believe.

Hebrews 4:2
For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.

Treasury of Scripture
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Luke 16:29-31
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them…

and hearing.

Jeremiah 23:28,29
The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD…

Mark 4:24
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Luke 8:11,21
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God…





Lexicon
Consequently,
ἄρα (ara)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive.

faith [comes]
πίστις (pistis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

by
ἐξ (ex)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

hearing,
ἀκοῆς (akoēs)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 189: Hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor. From akouo; hearing.

and
δὲ (de)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 1161: A primary particle; but, and, etc.

hearing
ἀκοὴ (akoē)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 189: Hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor. From akouo; hearing.

by
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

[the] word
ῥήματος (rhēmatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 4487: From rheo; an utterance, ; by implication, a matter or topic; with a negative naught whatever.
I am sorry, but still, nowhere in that you posted there could any one read anything about the gospel there said to be the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. Nor one can read anything even about the ability to believe.

I think what you want to say is not "ability to believe" but opportunity or occasion to believe.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Not if your first statement is correct. If God is chosing some for salvation, by default he is choosing the rest for damnation. And if I am chosen, that means someone else is chosen for damnation because of me being saved. Paul says he could wish to be damned if it saved his fellow Jews. Apparently, you believe Paul is more merciful than God is.
I'd say that your reasoning there is faulty. For if God had not chosen some, then He had not chosen at all. But God had chosen some. We see God doing this when He had chosen a very very few among the rest of mankind, in fact only 8, to save from death, in the days of Noah, in the flood. That does not mean that He had chosen the rest for damnation. That is faulty reasoning. God's election of grace is not for damnation but for salvation. Man had chosen damnation. God had chosen some for salvation.

You said "Paul says he could wish to be damned if it saved his fellow Jews. Apparently, you believe Paul is more merciful than God is." Do I believe that? Did I say anything even to that effect? To the contrary, I say that even with that or perhaps even anything that Paul says regarding his desire concerning the salvation of his fellow Jews, he never will be able to surpass God in any and all aspect of God's character. What Romans 9:3 tells us concerns Paul and have nothing to do with our discussion about the vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy spoken in Romans 9.

Tong
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Tong2020

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But in the passage I quoted God was talking to his nation Israel, not to saved gentiles in the future. So all this is irrelevant to the discussion of the Isaiah verse.
For you to understand and know the Israel of God are, in the light of the revelations in the NT scriptures, is very relevant in any discussion that concerns Israel and salvation.

Tong
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Tong2020

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No, it comes from scripture.
The words prevenient and preventing come from a Latin root word that means to precede. Prevenient or preventing grace then is simply the grace that comes before. Before what? Justifying grace.

John 12:32 declares that all men are drawn to Christ.
John 16:8-11 we see that the ongoing ministry of the Spirit is to convict the entire world of its sin of unbelief (the suppression of truth cf. Rom. 1:18-32).
Titus 2:11 clearly states that God's grace has appeared to all men but from this passage we cannot conclude that all men will be saved. Yet the grace spoken of here cannot be explained as simply a common grace. This is because the purpose of the grace spoken of was to bring people to salvation (something that common grace in Reformed thought is never said to do).

In Acts 10 we see the Holy Spirit working with devout Cornelius and causing Peter to go to him. Cornelius was not a New Testament Christian at this time, but was a "God-fearer" because he sought to serve God in spirit and in truth.

I could go on, but hopefully this will show you that this is a biblical concept.
Well, we are discussing God's grace of salvation and not any other grace.

Besides, I don't see anything of what you say there that makes "prevenient grace" a biblical concept.

Tong
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Tong2020

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This is nonsense. Does God plan rape? Did God plan the fall of man? Of course not. Show me where scripture says God plans evil.
I could understand why you can't get any sense out of my statement, which says that, in the sense that God allowed Sodom to be an evil city that it came to be by the peoples evil choices, is God's plan. And with that, you seem to believe that Sodom's becoming the evil city that it was, was not allowed by God and yet came to be. That is what is nonsense. For not even the falling of a sparrow to the ground does not happen if God had not allowed for it to happen.

You asked "Does God plan rape?" Of course not. Now we know that rape do happen and come to pass. If God did not allow that to take place, do you think that would have taken place? It's like, sparrows do fall to the ground, but only because God allowed for that to happen. Now, let me ask you a couple of questions, is it God's plan to kill in Egypt at the time of Moses, infants, young and old, firstborn? Is such killing of the firstborn, evil or not?

You asked "Did God plan the fall of man?" God did not force Adam to fall/sin, if that is what you are implying by your question. Now Adam is free to choose what he would do. The fact that God planted the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, for which man was not to eat of its fruit, and put Adam where he have access to it, only tells me that God's plan is to allow to happen, whatever it is that Adam choose to do, even so then, his fall. Could you say that as an evil plan?

Tong
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Renniks

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So what do you say is God's plan in your reading of scriptures, considering all that you said God is according to your misuse of said scriptures, there in your post?
You are just saying what you think God is, not what scripture says. I didn't say God made mistakes, BTW. And it's not about what I think. God said he regretted making men. God said he regretted making Saul King. How does that fit with his omniscience? Beats me. But it's not debatable.

I'm willing to leave some of that in the realm of mystery. But what isn't mysterious is God's will. He does not hide from us what that is.

Thessalonians 4:3, KJV: "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

"For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men."

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

There's a mystery in how God operates, but not in what God's will is.
 

Renniks

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God then.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalms 115:
3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.

Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.


Just say if
I'm quite aware of all these verses. I would ask what you think you are proving by quoting them? BTW, the proverbs verse needs to be read in context or it will be misunderstood. Solomon is talking about the heart that is committed to God, not just anyone's heart.
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,
But the Lord weighs the hearts."

See how this doesn't fit if God is irresistibly directing everyone's heart? Solomon was talking about his own heart, and even then, he was not always obedient and directed by God. God did not cause Solomon to fall away from him, but it still happened.
 

Renniks

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It seems you now have the nerve to limit God or sort of confine His sovereignty. And since you say that, I assume you believe you know when and what violates the character of God, right? So, let me ask you a few questions relative to that. Tell us, did God violate His character, perhaps His loving, merciful, and longsuffering character, when He destroyed all mankind, saved a few, and killed all flesh on the earth in the flood at Noah's time? Did God violate His character when He created Eve, despite knowing what Eve will do by her own free choice, and what evil it will bring to mankind? And a whole lot more of this kind of questions. But I think that will be enough for now, to make my point.
I can't figure how any Christian would have a problem with knowing that God can't violate his own character. If he could, would he be Worthy of worship? If God can do evil, how can he be a Holy God?
Of course God was just to destroy evil people. He said "thier every thought was only evil continually." That's hard for me to fathom. But I believe God is incapable of lying, in keeping with his character, so I believe him. If I believed God could violate his character, then I would have reason to question him.
As for why God created Eve, if he knew sin would happen, are you familiar with the concept of this being the best of all possible worlds? If that is true, the only question is, whether it would have been better to create a world where God would have to sacrifice himself, or to not create at all? Obviously, God chose sacrifice over selfishness, in keeping with his character. And in a sense, that means he created this world specifically for those who would choose to love him. That's an amazing thought, that in some sense all of creation was for you and me.
 

Renniks

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That's why context is important, where in the very next verses Jesus told them "31 If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Yes context is important. And the context confirms that we have to remain in him after our initial commitment. It says nothing about the people who had just believed being incapable to believe. I find it amusing that you are doing exactly what you just claimed I did, trying to change what the passage clearly states, in this case, that some did believe.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Not if your first statement is correct. If God is chosing some for salvation, by default he is choosing the rest for damnation. And if I am chosen, that means someone else is chosen for damnation because of me being saved. Paul says he could wish to be damned if it saved his fellow Jews. Apparently, you believe Paul is more merciful than God is.
when you pick out or choose 5 tomatoes at the grocery store, you did not damn the other ones, they were simply past over and left.
 

Renniks

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You said "Jesus wasn't talking to people incapable of believing on him." How sure are you with your statement there? I believe you have not put much thought on that. For one, scriptures speak about God hardening people, such that, hearing they will hear and shall not understand, and seeing they will see and not perceive; and speaks about God having given up people to uncleanness, to vile passions, and over to a debased mind. Of course that is not to say that God created them that way, but that God had given them up
This is all speculation. If there were such people in the crowd we know nothing about it. The fact that God gives up on people just confirms what I said about them choosing not to listen. Again, what are you trying to say? If they were hardened, they were not always of the devil... they weren't passed over for salvation, and were among those Christ died for.
 

Renniks

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I am sorry, but still, nowhere in that you posted there could any one read anything about the gospel there said to be the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. Nor one can read anything even about the ability to believe.

I think what you want to say is not "ability to believe" but opportunity or occasion to believe.

Tong
R0318
faith [comes]
πίστις (pistis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

by
ἐξ (ex)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.
 

Renniks

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That does not mean that He had chosen the rest for damnation. That is faulty reasoning. God's election of grace is not for damnation but for salvation. Man had chosen damnation. God had chosen some for salvation.
Could man choose anything else if he wasn't chosen for salvation? It's a distinction without a difference.
 

Renniks

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that Paul says regarding his desire concerning the salvation of his fellow Jews, he never will be able to surpass God in any and all aspect of God's character.
Like I said you believe God is less merciful and this proves it. You believe Paul when he said he desires salvation of the Jews, but not God when he says he's not willing that any perish.
 

Renniks

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Well, we are discussing God's grace of salvation and not any other grace.

Besides, I don't see anything of what you say there that makes "prevenient grace" a biblical concept.

Tong
R0321
It is God's grace for salvation! That's what prevenient grace is. It's given to all, as I just showed from scripture.
 

Renniks

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You asked "Does God plan rape?" Of course not. Now we know that rape do happen and come to pass. If God did not allow that to take place, do you think that would have taken place? It's like, sparrows do fall to the ground, but only because God allowed for that to happen. Now, let me ask you a couple of questions, is it God's plan to kill in Egypt at the time of Moses, infants, young and old, firstborn? Is such killing of the firstborn, evil or not?
So, God does not plan rape, but you just told me multiple times that God plans everything that happens in some sense. So you need to make up your mind. Allowing is not planning. I plan my trip somewhere. I don't plan the disaster that might happen on that trip. I can plan for it, or try to, but let's say I have an accident. Did I plan the movement of the other vehicles? God planning for all eventualities is far different than God planning out his oppositions actions.

If God plans the devil's moves, he is essentially the devil.

Again if this is the best of all possible worlds, some sins could not be prevented by God, and this still be a place where freedom exists. It could not be boot camp if you and I didn't have free will, and I mean libertarian Free Will, not just the freedom to choose what God chose for us already. I happen to believe infants go to be with God, so although the thought of them dying isn't pleasant, God was likely saving thier souls by cutting off thier existence. But even that was done because of men's disobedience. God makes plans according to his knowledge of what men will do.
"this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

Acts 2:23

Here's one that might surprise you coming from someone who is not teaching everything predestined.

"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel DETERMINED BEFORE to be done. "
(Acts 4:26-28)

What did God determine before to do? To die for me and you of course!

Why? Notice that it says they were gathered against God. If God was doing the planning, they would have been gathered for him, not against.
The sacrifice of Christ is a holy and acceptable offering to God and he didn’t force anyone to kill Jesus.
Peter and John expressed in their prayer that people came to do what was determined, but it doesn’t say that God predestined/caused/forced anyone to betray and kill Jesus, because then God would be the only reason for their sin. (You’re not guilty of something if God is the one who made you do it.) Jesus is said to have laid down his own life, so we know that was his plan. To lay it down.
They went after Jesus on their own accord, and this was known from the foundation of the world. I rest my case on God planning according to his foreknowledge.
 

Renniks

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when you pick out or choose 5 tomatoes at the grocery store, you did not damn the other ones, they were simply past over and left.
Lol, goofy analogy. But, if you picked one and leave the others to rot on the vine, you certainly did destine the others to rot.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Lol, goofy analogy. But, if you picked one and leave the others to rot on the vine, you certainly did destine the others to rot.
lol...it i goofy
but The tomatoes were all gonna decay eventually anyway so 5 picked 5 tomatoes for my purposes does nothing saying I have to pick all of them in a 5 pic 5 that I didn't do anything to the other ones they were all going to decay if no one picked any of them they would have all decayed the fact that I had mercy in a sense on 5 of them and pick them to be eaten instead doesn't cause the other ones to decay