No double speak, as you think and say there, Renniks.Oh, the doublespeak! Yes, God says he can do as he wishes in response to Israel's rebellion. But you have not really answered at all. Allowing something to happen is far different than planning it. As I already said, God is making his plans in response to what He knows men will do. That's what he says but you seem intent on denying it.
"So, when Israel, for example, as a people, disobey God, God's plan was then the allowing of Israel to be disobedient. In that sense then, Israel's disobedience to God, is God's plan. But in another sense, Israel is responsible for his disobedience, not God."
In no sense does the scripture claim here that Israel's disobedience is God's plan. You are just making that up to fit into your theology. Sovereignty is a word that gets thrown out there a lot, but what is it? A simple definition is: "supreme power or authority.". so, yeah, God has the power and authority to do as he wishes. Notice what it doesn't say: Sovereignty is not about control, although we hear this constantly preached, that God is controlling everything. Having supreme authority simply means God can do anything he likes as long as it doesn't violate his character.
BTW, I never says God was waiting to see what men would do. You made that up too. God isn't subject to time as far as we know.
The trouble with claiming everything is God's will and God's plan is that God doesn't claim that. Not even close. He laments rebellion, he claims people defy him, he acts like a jilted lover, not an all-controlling tyrant.
You said "Allowing something to happen is far different than planning it." It may be that you can't understand in the same way I and most Christians do, because you think that how God plans is the same as how man plans things. God created creatures like angels and men, with the freedom to do what they will to do, within the boundaries God had set upon each respectively. And doing so, considered in His plan then, are the choices that these creatures make. And what we can understand regarding this, is that in God's plan, God allowed every choice that each of these creatures make, to happen. It could not be anything else but that for freedom of choice to be real.
You said "As I already said, God is making his plans in response to what He knows men will do." Of which I have refuted in the very post that you make this statement of yours in response to. So saying that is not a counter refutation but is merely repeating your assertion.
You said "In no sense does the scripture claim here that Israel's disobedience is God's plan." You may see scriptures as not claiming that. However, the reality of Israel's disobedience, and scriptures' testimony of it, with the truth that nothing in this world happens without the knowledge and permission of God, who created all and sustains all things, and the very fact that men are responsible for the choices they make, could only point to that. And I repeat, to be clear, Israel's disobedience to God, is God's plan, in the sense that God allowed them to be disobedient. Israel is responsible for his disobedience, not God.
You said "Sovereignty is a word that gets thrown out there a lot, but what is it? A simple definition is: "supreme power or authority." The Bible is the best place that could tell us about that. Let me give you a few verses that speaks of the sovereignty of God. Or if you don't like that term "sovereignty", take it as about "the supreme power or authority" of God then.
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.
Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.
Just say if you need more. They are in your Bible.
You said "Sovereignty is not about control". Would you say God is sovereign or not? I am quite sure you'd say He is. If you say that sovereignty is not about control, then please tell us what it is that is about control.
You said "Having supreme authority simply means God can do anything he likes as long as it doesn't violate his character." It seems you now have the nerve to limit God or sort of confine His sovereignty. And since you say that, I assume you believe you know when and what violates the character of God, right? So, let me ask you a few questions relative to that. Tell us, did God violate His character, perhaps His loving, merciful, and longsuffering character, when He destroyed all mankind, saved a few, and killed all flesh on the earth in the flood at Noah's time? Did God violate His character when He created Eve, despite knowing what Eve will do by her own free choice, and what evil it will bring to mankind? And a whole lot more of this kind of questions. But I think that will be enough for now, to make my point.
Tong
R0316
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