Freewill and Choice have NOTHING to dowith Salvation

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ephesians 2:1-5 said:
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

As Romans 6:6 tells us, we are (spiritually) crucified with Christ, where we become dead in sin (Romans 6:11). A few verses later we're told that death is the wages of sin. Like Christ, this is a type for every Christian; we are spiritually raised from the dead (the eternal death sentence) into life. As such, we have to die like Christ and crucify the old man (Romans 6 again). While I agree that the specific phrase spiritually dead is not in the Bible, it's just like the trinity in that it's our term for something quite powerful which God has wrought.

The truth of the matter is we are dead without Christ. I know I am.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Christina said:
Sure when the flesh is dead the spirit returns to the Lord ...We are not made of flesh alone
when we die our spirit returns to the Lord.

1 Cor 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

If you read each of these verses carefully you will notice that they do not say absent from the body "is" present with the Lord.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
SwampFox said:
Ephesians 2:1-5 said:
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

As Romans 6:6 tells us, we are (spiritually) crucified with Christ, where we become dead in sin (Romans 6:11). A few verses later we're told that death is the wages of sin. Like Christ, this is a type for every Christian; we are spiritually raised from the dead (the eternal death sentence) into life. As such, we have to die like Christ and crucify the old man (Romans 6 again). While I agree that the specific phrase spiritually dead is not in the Bible, it's just like the trinity in that it's our term for something quite powerful which God has wrought.

The truth of the matter is we are dead without Christ. I know I am.

I have to disagree. How is one spiritually crucified with Christ? I thought one was born spiritually dead. Also Jesus did not say you must be spiritually resurrected or you must be resurrected of the spirit, He said you must be born of the Spirit. Notice when Jesus speaks of the spirit He says you must be born, yet when he speaks of the body He says you must be resurrected. Romans 6 speaks of water baptism and crucifying the old man (sinful flesh), I don't see anything here that speaks of spiritual death. I am not looking for the phrase "spiritual death", I am looking for the concept and I don't see it. The closest I see is at the judgment when unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.
 

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm a very firm believer that our Father always works with archetypes and examples for us to work from.

So that I can understand where you are coming from here, how do you interpret Romans 6:6?

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freeda from sin.

Now I know that being spiritually dead is one thing, but I'll put that on the shelf because we need to start with this first. As you understand it, what or who is the "old man" that is crucified with Christ?

Thanks.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
SwampFox said:
I'm a very firm believer that our Father always works with archetypes and examples for us to work from.

So that I can understand where you are coming from here, how do you interpret Romans 6:6?

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freeda from sin.

Now I know that being spiritually dead is one thing, but I'll put that on the shelf because we need to start with this first. As you understand it, what or who is the "old man" that is crucified with Christ?

Thanks.

I understand this passage to be speaking of water baptism being a representation of our being born again. The old man I understand to be the old life of sin. It is the old life that we are crucifying.
 

samy

New Member
Apr 8, 2008
138
1
0
78
Butch5, When Christina was pointing to separation of the spirit from God and you asked for a reference, might we have gone to Rev. 20:11-15 as an example? It is ultimate separation and is called the second death. samy
 

samy

New Member
Apr 8, 2008
138
1
0
78
Benoni, and others, Just an opinion about freewill and choice. Jesus said in John 16:8 that He would "convict the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment." This of course would be necessary for anyone to make a decision to believe in Christ. This in fact is the "dragging" part of salvation. God gets total credit for this. You have to be dragged into the light, where you are enlightened and are able to make a choice. But the choice then rests upon you. Hebrews 6:4-8. samy
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
samy said:
Butch5, When Christina was pointing to separation of the spirit from God and you asked for a reference, might we have gone to Rev. 20:11-15 as an example? It is ultimate separation and is called the second death. samy

Yes, it is. However, this Scriptrue is not teaching us that death is a separation from God. That may be inferred from the passage but the passage is teaching us that those reject Him will be cast into the lake of fire. I am not arguing that that is not a logical deduction, What I am saying is that the purpose of thisScripture isn't to teach a concept of death as a sepatation. death by its very nature is separation, my point wass that in Ephesians 2 death is a metaphor and not literal.
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes death in Ephesians 2 is a metaphor, but a metaphor of what kind of death? Physical or spiritual? When Adam sin he died, but he did not die physically until Genesis 5:5 but he died spiritually. He died from the presence of God. he no longer had what it took to hear, see, touch the presence of God , that is the metaphor that is sprinkled though out God’s Word. All in Adam died, dead in trespasses and sin, die daily. The death in the Book of Revelation is spiritual death not physical.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Notice it is not all believers who will not be hurt by the second death, it is the overcomers.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The overcomers become Kings and priest unto God for the remainder of mankind. (Acts 15:16-17)

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Even death will be cast is the Lake of Fire, death will overcome death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yes unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers will have there place in the lake of Fire, but so will all those who are not overcomers for only the overcomers will not be hurt by the second death.
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
Let us look a little closer at man making a decision for Christ with out the power of God's Spirit to quicken you first.

John 3:16 is one of the most awesome verses in Bible once you get past all the BAD translations. Let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strong’s Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.

(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

NT:9999

9999 inserted word (x);

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.


Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered
"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator

Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;



samy said:
Benoni, and others, Just an opinion about freewill and choice. Jesus said in John 16:8 that He would "convict the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment." This of course would be necessary for anyone to make a decision to believe in Christ. This in fact is the "dragging" part of salvation. God gets total credit for this. You have to be dragged into the light, where you are enlightened and are able to make a choice. But the choice then rests upon you. Hebrews 6:4-8. samy
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
Yes we need to have faith unto salvation; but we have no faith or ability to have faith until God first saves us by His grace; God must draw us drag us first and then there is no freewill or choice; how can their be have you eve been dragged. A carnal earthy man is dead, dead in trespasses and sin; when Adam died we all died when it comes to the realm of God; who is spirit and truth. Have you ever seen a dead man have faith in anything? It takes God’s Spirit to awaken our spirit before we can receive His salvation and have that faith as scripture declares. Notice Ephesians 2

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Notice the order/context, God must quicken us be we are dead in sins; then He saves us by grace NOT BEFORE because we magically beliver of our own freewill (which is not scriptural) ; then and only then do we have faith and I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
samy said:
Benoni, and others, Just an opinion about freewill and choice. Jesus said in John 16:8 that He would "convict the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment." This of course would be necessary for anyone to make a decision to believe in Christ. This in fact is the "dragging" part of salvation. God gets total credit for this. You have to be dragged into the light, where you are enlightened and are able to make a choice. But the choice then rests upon you. Hebrews 6:4-8. samy

I have just posted commentary regarding the drawing in John 6:44, you can read it here.

http://www.christianityboard.com/apologetic-christian-forum/god-does-not-drag-all/msg75816/#msg75816
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Benoni---Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes death in Ephesians 2 is a metaphor, but a metaphor of what kind of death? Physical or spiritual? When Adam sin he died, but he did not die physically until Genesis 5:5 but he died spiritually. He died from the presence of God. he no longer had what it took to hear, see, touch the presence of God , that is the metaphor that is sprinkled though out God’s Word. All in Adam died, dead in trespasses and sin, die daily. The death in the Book of Revelation is spiritual death not physical.

Adam died spiritually??? That is pure speculation and conjecture. The passage says nothing of spiritual death. It is an assumption based on the idea that Adam did not die in that 24 hour period. However, what do the Scriptures say?

Genesis 2:16-17 ( KJV )
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So, did Adam die that day? How old was Adam when he died?

Genesis 5:4-5 ( KJV )
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Adam lived 930 years, If Adam had not eaten of the tree he would not have died, yet he did eat and God said in that day Adam would die. Did he die that day? According to Peter he did.

2 Peter 3:8 ( KJV )
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


Psalms 90:4 ( KJV )
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

So, we see that Adam did die physically the day he ate of the tree, we just have to understand that the day was not a 24 hour period.


Benoni---Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Notice it is not all believers who will not be hurt by the second death, it is the overcomers.

A believer is an overcomer.

1 John 5:5 ( KJV )
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Benoni---Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The overcomers become Kings and priest unto God for the remainder of mankind. (Acts 15:16-17)

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Even death will be cast is the Lake of Fire, death will overcome death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yes unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers will have there place in the lake of Fire, but so will all those who are not overcomers for only the overcomers will not be hurt by the second death.

That's because the overcomers are believers
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Benoni said:
Yes we need to have faith unto salvation; but we have no faith or ability to have faith until God first saves us by His grace; God must draw us drag us first and then there is no freewill or choice; how can their be have you eve been dragged. A carnal earthy man is dead, dead in trespasses and sin; when Adam died we all died when it comes to the realm of God; who is spirit and truth. Have you ever seen a dead man have faith in anything? It takes God’s Spirit to awaken our spirit before we can receive His salvation and have that faith as scripture declares. Notice Ephesians 2

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Notice the order/context, God must quicken us be we are dead in sins; then He saves us by grace NOT BEFORE because we magically beliver of our own freewill (which is not scriptural) ; then and only then do we have faith and I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.

Can you provide any evidence to support your claim? You said look at the order of Ephesians two, this is not giving an order of salvation, it is merely Paul explaining what happened to the Ephesians in their past. Please show me a single verse of Scripture that says one is saved before they have faith. You cannot, it simply is not Scriptural. The very passage you posted refutes your claim. For by grace are you saved, how? through faith. Isn't one quickened through faith?


Psalms 119:50 ( KJV )
This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Isn't this what Paul said? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Psalms 119:93 ( KJV )
I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:35-36 ( KJV )
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

It is not quickened until it dies, Paul also said,

Romans 6:3-9 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

So according to Paul we must crucify the flesh before we can be quickened. He said, as many as were baptized were baptized into Christ's death, they have crucified the old man and can now be quickened. Since it is a free will choice whether or not to be baptized I think it is safe to say that man does have a choice in salvation.
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
“it is merely Paul explaining what happened to the Ephesians in their past”

TOTAL HOGWASH… Sorry God’s Word dictates how God’s man is saved not your bias opinion.

I already did provide evidence “in context” according to scripture not my opinion. This chapter is not speaking just to the Ephesians in the past as you assume. How clearer can you get, here "God’s Word" not "your opinion" is giving a line upon line breakdown on how Jesus saves. And you reject it......

You show me one scripture that man has freewill towards salvation would be a good start?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice it is God not man’s freewill who is being draws/drags you…. There is no choosing when you are being dragged. Yes by grace you are saved though faith, but you are ignoring the "context of the chapter" and trying to explain away something you do not like...

If you think you can put the horse before the cart. WRONG...
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
Butch5

I really do not care to argue with your 24 hour day theory here it has nothing to do with Adam’s death, for Adam died when he was 930 years old and if you do not believe me read Genesis 5;5 and it will tell you. I am sure the spiritual day was relevant in the six days of creation but once Adam and Eve sinned it obvious to anyone who can read God's Word with an open spirit spiritual days was no longer relevant after the fall, seeing the Bible showed us not only Adam death in natural years but a multiple of the patriarchs of scripture to which the list would be too long to even consider lived and died in 24 hour days.

Just like you see spiritual days even thought you do not have all your facts in order there is also a spiritual death in Genesis. Genesis is the foundation for the whole Word of God and seeing it is the foundation spiritual death must be esptablished for spiritual death is peppered all thought the rest of the Bible even though you do not have spiritual eyes to see it.


If Adam did not die spiritually you explain to me why Adam lost his communion with God once they sinned. Here is anothe spin on spiritual death from another spiritual example.
1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)


God said Adam was naked, who cares if Adam was naked physically; I mean it was just Adam, his wife Eve and God. No there is something far more to this creation story.

Naked:

Adam and Eve were both…NAKED! Among all the creatures which God made, man stands out unique…stark naked…which means devoid of true wisdom and knowledge, with his inner nature revealed, opened up, exhibited, and made bare.

Oh, that God may give us understanding to see that to be naked means to have THE FLESH UNCOVERED AND EXPOSED! In the typology of scripture "the flesh" is the name by which the Holy Spirit designates our outer life of soul and body, our earthly and carnal human nature, literally speaking of that nature which is earthly minded, with its lusts and self-centeredness, its ego and I-will which are in rebellion to the spirit. Thus, the flesh is not the outward, visible man of meat, muscle, and bones, but the nature of the soulical and bodily man. This nature was in man from the beginning, else Eve (who was of the man) could not have been tempted, nor could they have sinned! This nature could be seen to be in them from the time God lowered them out of their pure spirit existence, in the image and likeness of God, investing them with a body of earth so that man became a living soul. But as long as man was caught up in God he was not aware of it — for he was naked and was not ashamed (Gen. 2:25). Have we not all experienced the same thing?

You see God caused the fall not Adam or Eve for it was not their choice.
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
The overcomers are not all believers.

Like I said God is not calling all people now; if God was calling them they have no freewill or choice in this matter. This we learn from the powerful word draw. It is not human will here it is divine will. Yes man has a will, but not when it comes to salvation.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
There are more then one example of death in God’s Word.

1,

There is physical death, for Adam died Physical at age 930. Phyical death is nothing but an example to show us what death is. The real death is the spiritual death.

2.

Then there is spiritual death, for when Adam died spiritually he lost all reality of God for he became spiritually dead or carnal.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.

3,

The last is the second death. Which is death to spiritual death.

"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe. Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, lie is destroying the first death with the second death"


Who are God’s elect? The Overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Overcomer and everyone else.

There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation, those who overcome and those who do not. The second death is a process for all of us who have not overcome now; it is a spiritual process.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Not he who belives, or he who is saved, but he who overcame will not be hurt by the second death for they have already overcame death by death. This why Jesus died for he is the forerunner of overcome death.
 

Joe Luna

New Member
Dec 2, 2009
4
0
0
124
I think trying to figure out freewill versus predestination will ultimately be something that man cannot do. This is a Godly construct.
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
Man has no freewill when it comes to salvation. The whole doctrine of freewill is based on a religious myth and not God's Word. God controls man's salvation, man has no control of spiritual things until God first calls that man/women.