THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST

Truther said:

No, the Catholic Church cannot separate itself from Rome, thus it is and always will be the RCC. Rome runs it as we speak.

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Truther said:

Please give the particular passage you see the church in operation prior to Pentecost.

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Mungo said:

The name of the Church is the Catholic Church.
For example the title of the catechism is the Catechism of The Catholic Church.

Persisting calling it the RCC is just anti-Catholic bigotry.

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Mungo said:

Jesus called the 12 leaders (apostles) of the Church 3 years before Pentecost. The basic structure was formed. MK 3:13-19

Just before his ascension Jesus commissioned them to go out and preach the gospel. (Mt 28:16-20)

One of the 12 had betrayed Jesus (Mk 14:10-11 & 43-46) and killed himself (Mt 27:5)

The structure had to be repaired and they chose a replacement (Matthias)(Acts 1:15-26)

All this was before Pentecost (Acts 2)

By the day of Pentecost the Church was up and running.

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Mungo said:

The name of the Church is the Catholic Church.
For example the title of the catechism is the Catechism of The Catholic Church.

Persisting calling it the RCC is just anti-Catholic bigotry.

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Truther said:

So the baptism of the Holy Ghost is unnecessary to be in the church?


(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

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Truther said:

Are you ashamed of your boss the Pope of Rome?

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Mungo said:

Whether I am or not is irrelevant to the proper name of the Catholic Church.

(BTW - the Pope live in the Vatican City State not Rome)

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Mungo said:

We are discussing when the Church started not the "Baptism with the Holy Spirit"

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Truther said:

Is he your boss?

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Truther said:

So, you think the Church of Jesus was Spiritless?

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

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Mungo said:

As per other posts you are trying to divert from the point.

We are discussing when the Church started.

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Mungo said:

Whether he is my "boss" or not is irrelevant to the name of the Church.

You are just trying to divert.

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Truther said:

No sir, just trying to figure out where your Catholic church headquarters are from.

Italy, right?

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Truther said:

You are content to think the Church Jesus started was before He infilled the disciples?

Then why were they infilled if they were in the Church already?

They needed power or they already had power?

Or, a powerless Church?

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Mungo said:

If you look back at post #51 you will see that some power had been given to the apostles.
Post #57 & #62 shows the structure was in place.

Did they need more power? Yes
But that is not relevant to when the Church was founded.

You ask if they were already infilled with the Holy Spirit before Pentecost.
John desribes how Jesus appeared to them (chap 20) and said:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit."! (vs 21-22) .

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Mungo said:

What has that to do with the name of the Church? At one time 7 successive Popes resided in Avignon in France. The name of the Church was still the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church or the Avignon Catholic Church.

The may shock you but the Catholic Church decides what its name is - not you.

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Don,t be ashamed of your Pope.

Doug said:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Jesus, after his resurrection, spoke unto the twelve apostles of the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3). The aspect of the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of was the kingdom of the Davidic covenant; the kingdom promised Israel to reign with Christ on earth (1 Chronicles 17:12 Daniel 7:18 Luke 1:32 Revelation 5:10). The apostles wanted to know if Jesus was about to restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6).

Jesus commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, the Holy Ghost, to empower them for the tribulation period (Luke 24:49 Acts 1:5).

2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The apostles, filled with the Holy Ghost, began to speak in tongues.

2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Speaking in tongues, as can clearly be seen in verse 6, is speaking in the hearers language. Also in verses 8 and 11, tongues involves the ability given the apostles to speak and be heard in a specific language, not of their own. It was a sign given them to substantiate their ministry.

Peter, standing with the eleven, spoke in the following verse:

2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Pentecost, and the filling of the Holy Ghost, was prophesied by Joel. This was a fulfillment of prophecy in Joel 2:28-32. Joel speaks to Israel about the day of the Lord (Joel 2:1). Joel speaks of turning to the Lord (Joel 2:12); that the Lord is in their midst (Joel 2:27). Peter was exhorting Israel in Acts 2:40 to save itself from this untoward generation and be spared the coming wrath. This prophecy was directed to Israel, and those present were for the most part Jews.

2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

In the above verses it should be noted that Peter was not addressing the newly formed church, the Body of Christ, but rather, Israel only. Peter preached Jesus as Christ, and his resurrection, the gospel of the Circumcision (Galatians 2:7). The resurrection of Jesus Christ would assure the fulfillment of the future promised kingdom on earth, in which, he was raised from the dead to sit on the throne of David. The Holy Spirit will cause Israel to keep his commandments, and reign and rule with him over the nations, to be a light of salvation to the Gentiles (Isaiah 60:3 Ezekiel 36:24-28 Revelation 20:4 Matthew 5:14).

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Peter, in the above verses, states that Jesus is both Lord and Christ. Jesus rose from the dead declaring that he is the Son of God (Romans 1:4).

In verse 38 below, Peter shows that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour of Israel, who alone can forgive the sins of the nation of Israel.

2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Peter is only offering the above promises of remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost to repentant Israel, and those Gentiles who would come to God thru Israel.

2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The believers were baptized according to the commandment of the Davidic covenant announced by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:2); the cleansing for the remission of sins; the recognition of the name,authority, and the identity of Jesus. Just like Peter in Acts 2:40 John warned Israel to flee the wrath to come (Matthew 3:7). The believers were added to them, the church of God and the kingdom to come, not the body of Christ.

2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

They sold all they had and provided to all according to the commandment to Israel by Jesus in Matthew 13:46 and Matthew 19:21.

2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

They were in one accord as well. The church here is not the body of Christ. The church here are the believers in Christ who were promised entrance into the kingdom on earth. The kingdom which is postponed and interrupted by our dispensation of Grace.

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Truther said:

Keep reading...

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

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