Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Ummm... no, LoL.
Hello, Scott, and good to see you again. Hope you are well and taking care of yourself.
Modern Prophets
- Thread starter marks
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ummm... no, LoL.
Hello, Scott, and good to see you again. Hope you are well and taking care of yourself.
I don't know how many then, and I don't know how many now. Do you? If so, how would you know?
Paul gave a lot of teaching in response to a lot of error. Are you so certain we're missing out by not being like them?
Is it really that we need the latter rain? Or do we just need to trust Him? I don't think the lack is of God, I think it's of us. If we are not walking in His power, if we are not serving through the gifts loving others, it's not because He hasn't given us the Spirit so we can do so, it's because we are not walking in that faith.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Many use this argument; it is akin to the argument that we simply need to be "believing Him" for the greater gifts, because they are "already ours." I don't subscribe to it. We are not submitted to the Spirit of God in our flesh, and this disqualifies many of us from operating in greater gifts because if we ever received them we would start sticking our hands out and saying, "Thus sayeth the Lord, 'Pay Me! Giveth thine greatest offering, that the Lord may be greatly pleased." People only think they can handle the responsibility that comes with power and authority until they walk in it. Then the Devil goes after them with all sorts of temptations - pride, sex, fame, money, notoriety - and they fall victims because they were not ready to withstand the enemy.
MANY have fallen in the past, and I could post at length about this. But the idea that most Christians could actually handle walking in greater gifts is an assumption. What the Lord asks for in scripture and WILL ask for of His army is that they call a fast and FAST the flesh down, so that they not be tempted when the Tempter comes. As Derek Prince once said, "I believe the essential nature of fasting is renouncing the natural to invoke the supernatural." (Derek Prince, Fasting, P.17). Only if we have truly crucified the flesh, not in name only or "theologically" but practically, have we truly prepared ourselves to withstand the temptations that will come with being more greatly used by God through a stronger outpouring.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil... Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly. (Joel 2:11-15)
Good point, especially since the examples that I gave were more descriptive, rather than prescriptive as the verses that you cited.
But, personally, the only limitation that I perceive in 1 Corinthians 12-14, is the scope of the application of prophecy. Paul's explanation appears to reserve such gifts to no broader than on a Church scale, rather than a national or global extremity? But, again, Agabus predicted the region wide famine? ...but maybe this was so because it affected the Church to such a degree, that a relief fund played a big part in Paul's ministry?
But, as far as predictive is concerned, I don't interpret 1 Corinthians 12-14 to necessarily be excluding this option? For, his expression 'to build up the Church' could imply various forms of prophecy?
Not the same.
"He has given us all we need for live and godliness . . ."
"Earnestly desire the greater gifts . . ."
Part of trusting Him is desiring the greater gifts.
That's not faith.
Are you thinking the power is yours to do what you want? I don't think so.
God's power working through you serves His purpose, not your own. Jesus can call Peter to walk across the water, but you can't by the power of the Holy Spirit walk through the wall of the bank to cart out armloads of cash.
I guess many do seem to have the idea that they have received God's power like a mindless EverReady battery, a force for good or evil, but I most certainly do not see it that way.
We have very very different ideas of what a walk in Christ is like. For me it is looking to Jesus in all things, and letting Him do whatever He wants with me. There is no difference moment by moment, a Post written in the Spirit - may that be - is no less miraculous, or less a work of God's power, of Jesus living in me, than plucking an ocean liner from the sea and dropping it on the desert! Perhaps even more so for some people.
Don't look as us as if we did this!
Do you think then that your flesh is not truly crucified? That you are not truly dead to your flesh? Alive unto God? Is that not true of you?
If you've trusted Jesus I'm thinking it is true. Trust further!
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I read this in the context of everything else you said, so I understand. But it insinuates (or seems to) that God does not want us doing miracles and operating in healings and prophecy to any great extent at the present time because we are not doing so.
Forgive me if that is not your position, but that is the only thing I am getting out of this response. Help me understand what you mean.
Not at all unfortunately, LoL. Although I seek to bring my flesh under daily. But when I am eating I am something of a beast. Not so much when I am fasting and praying. I think here is where you and I have a big disagreement on theoretical positions in Christ verses practical states of being, i.e. as a reality. So we may want to avoid that merry-go-round again, LoL. It would be a long discussion.
Last edited:
If we are not functioning spiritually the way the Bible teaches us, it is only because we don't trust Jesus.
If we trust Him, have a complete and full reliance on Jesus Christ, and what He has done, and continues to do, without looking towards ourselves, we will walk in His Spirit, and do the works He has ordained.
This is the life of the Christian, and if it's not happening, then it's only because of our own lack of faith.
Understanding, of course, that not all speak in tongues, not all work miracles, etc.
Do we not walk in His gifts because we are not able, or because we don't believe in a life that way? Because I do believe.
When I wasn't, and whenever it is that I don't, it's always the same reason. Any doubt in Jesus, in His understanding, His plan, His love and kindness, His power, His eternal life, His forgiveness, this is the obstacle. Get my eyes back on God and off myself, remembering what He has done, that life begins again.
Much love!
Last edited:
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Ok, well don't get offended, but are you trusting Jesus for walking in greater gifts? If so, are you?
The thing I most want to say is that the righteous and holy new creation, not a theoretical state, but a new reality, is our life by faith, the same faith that saves us, Romans 5:1. That by trusting Jesus right now, we live that new creation life right now. If that involves typing what I should and not what I shouldn't, this is what happens. If it involves raising the dead or speaking a prophecy, that's what happens.
Trusting Jesus completely fills us completely with love, and joy, and peace, and makes us patient, and gentle, and meek, and we remain faithful, and we can control ourselves, and we have not sense of guilt or wrongdoing, though we realize that's not the end of the story. But we leave that in the hands of Jesus, we trust Him even with our sin.
Anything that increases your trusting in Jesus is good with me!
So much of my life I've trusted Him a little, with a little difference in my life. And so much work! Trusting completely brings complete rest. I love writing about these things as it brings such a deep peace to my soul!
The fruit of the Spirit . . .we think of it as growing in our lives . . . what is actually growing? I think it is our faith. And compete faith yields mature fruit.
Much love!
I've never been comfortable with this.
At the end of the day this isn't what matters towards sorting out the discussion, at least to me, since I endeavor to hold the Bible as the final authority, and I personally find the topic very adequately covered in Scripture.
I've personally become convinced that all of Christian living comes down to the moment by moment trusting in Jesus, our Good Shepherd, our Door, He is all we need for everything. In His presence is the fullness of joy forever.
My big concern? Am I rejoicing? Filled with happiness in the Lord? Because according to Scripture, that's supposed to be us 24/7. And all the things Scripture instructs us in are to be in rejoicing. In loving others, with both affection and charity.
The one exception is chastening . . . literally training as one trains a child, not just spanking. That is grievous, and must be, but all else is to be rejoicing.
If you want to see the spiritual fruit and gifts in your life, stop caring about everything else except to know the love of your Creator. That's what everything is all about. Everything else comes after that. If you know His love, you Will love Him. And in knowing His love, and loving Him in return, this so transforms you to love others the same.
And the life lived loving God and loving others, trusting Jesus for EVERYTHING, this is the abundant life. Whatever it looks like, whether this gift, that ministry.
Much love!
OzSpen
Well-Known Member
- Mar 30, 2015
- 3,728
- 795
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
HiH,
Regarding 1 Co 13:9-12:
Controversy surrounds vv. 8-12
What do you think in these verses could get people uptight and be even antagonistic towards one another?
1. Paul makes a contrast in these verses
We compare 2 things here to show differences. What is the major difference Paul states in vv 8-12?
- Simply stated in v. 12: Now we know in part but then we shall know fully as we are fully known. We can never know fully while we are in this world. Imagine what it’s going to be like to how our full nature, thoughts and motives exposed by God’s search light.
When will spiritual gifts cease to be relevant? Look at these verses in context. What do they state?
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known (NIV).
My understanding is that the gifts will not cease until ‘we shall see face to face’ and ‘I shall know fully, even as I am fully known’. That sounds awfully like when we are face to face with God Himself, when we are in his presence.
There is nothing here that indicates 'perfection' relates to the completion of the canon of Scripture.
Oz
If I might suggest....seek wisdom, knowledge and understanding....Proverbs 3....the very essence of knowing who and how He thinks is in this chapter. That is where the Holy Spirit had me start before He ever started imparting His gifts to me.The thing I most want to say is that the righteous and holy new creation, not a theoretical state, but a new reality, is our life by faith, the same faith that saves us, Romans 5:1. That by trusting Jesus right now, we live that new creation life right now. If that involves typing what I should and not what I shouldn't, this is what happens. If it involves raising the dead or speaking a prophecy, that's what happens.
Trusting Jesus completely fills us completely with love, and joy, and peace, and makes us patient, and gentle, and meek, and we remain faithful, and we can control ourselves, and we have not sense of guilt or wrongdoing, though we realize that's not the end of the story. But we leave that in the hands of Jesus, we trust Him even with our sin.
Anything that increases your trusting in Jesus is good with me!
So much of my life I've trusted Him a little, with a little difference in my life. And so much work! Trusting completely brings complete rest. I love writing about these things as it brings such a deep peace to my soul!
The fruit of the Spirit . . .we think of it as growing in our lives . . . what is actually growing? I think it is our faith. And compete faith yields mature fruit.
Much love!
Just like in the OT, modern day prophets are not all liked because of what God needs them to say to a single person or a group of people.
Many Christians like to tell God what to do and when a prophet speaks to them contrary to their expectation of what God should do, they object to the prophets words and move away to their detriment.
Sadly, many people try to be prophets because they like the accolades they receive when they bring a word.
In an age where criticism is frowned upon, to many people praise these want to be prophets instead of bringing correction to them.
Shalom
Many Christians like to tell God what to do and when a prophet speaks to them contrary to their expectation of what God should do, they object to the prophets words and move away to their detriment.
Sadly, many people try to be prophets because they like the accolades they receive when they bring a word.
In an age where criticism is frowned upon, to many people praise these want to be prophets instead of bringing correction to them.
Shalom
Last edited:
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
We just have a fundamental difference in our focus. I don't mean this to sound condemning, but my concern is primarily with saving a lost and dying world, and the harvest is not going to happen until the church moves in the same supernatural power that she did during New Testament times and more so. Until Christ again manifests Himself in power, it will not take place because our presentation of the gospel is mere words, unlike in the days of the early church.
But anyway, we are so fundamentally different in our focus that we are likely never to see eye to eye here. But I'm ok with that. It's not like I am opposed to a focus on our own relationship with Christ. But my eyes are on something else.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
That's what I thought, and completely agree. But now, tell me where you think Paul is getting v.12 from. I ask because my opinion (shared by others) is that he is quoting Numbers 12:8. Let me find my post and requote it here:
______________
In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly (as in "an enigma"), but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).
Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8 ).
Paul used these exact same expressions to make the same comparison; of God speaking "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) verses Him speaking to His prophets "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like, Paul. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions. They are like riddles, and take spiritual discernment to make out.
This is what the New Testament Christians were doing because Paul specifically used the words, "For now WE see through a glass darkly (present tense)." He was saying that when they got to Heaven, they would see God face to face just like Moses did. But at the present time they were still seeing through a glass darkly, or literally "in enigmas." It means that the New Testament prophets were still operating in prophecy by interpreting prophetic dreams and visions just like the Old Testament prophets did.
The surrounding context of 1st Corinthians all the more bears this out. In 1 Corinthians 12:31, Paul was urging them to seek the greater gifts, but then began showing them a better way to operate in them; in love for others. Our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ will remain even when we are finally in Heaven, when prophecy is no longer needed. But then he adds this, "[So] pursue love, and be zealous for spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophecy, for the one speaking in a tongues speaks not to men but to God... but the one prophesying speaks unto men for edification" (1 Corinthians 14:1-3). In other words, pray that God gives you the ability to prophecy so you can be of more benefit to others, and minister to them more in love.
Thus, Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy has always been and will always be a practice that involves interpreting dreams and visions, because we still presently "see through a glass darkly," i.e. in enigmas; in riddles.
____________
Give me your thoughts on this. I would like to know what your response would be.
Last edited:
OzSpen
Well-Known Member
- Mar 30, 2015
- 3,728
- 795
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
HiH,
I cannot agree as the context of Numbers 12 states that God is speaking to Moses 'face to face' and it does not relate to the contemporary gifts of the Spirit.
My understanding of biblical prophecy is a supernatural word received from God that is delivered to the congregation for edification. In the context of 1 Cor 13:8-12, nothing is said of a parallel with the statement from God to Moses. Also, nothing in 1 Cor 13-14 indicates prophecy relates to interpreting dreams and visions.
Oz
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Yes, and he is drawing a parallel between Moses and God. You honestly don't see his use of Numbers 12:8 here? The context of the 1 Corinthians 12-14 passage is gifts, especially prophecy, and he is citing a verse where both πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον and ἐν αἰνίγματι are used...
It seems like a no brainer to me...
Well, ok. We disagree very strongly here, and I think the context and vocabulary of the two passages in comparison overwhelmingly supports my position. But no sense arguing over it if your mind is made up.
God bless, and thanks for the time anyway.
Last edited:
Similar threads
