Modern Prophets

Waiting on him · May 22, 2020

farouk said:
Unless people are really ready, it's not wise to be too eager to see the next stage in the Lord's plans, right?

The next stage in my opinion would be this

Isaiah 32:1-4 KJV
Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. [2] And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. [3] And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken. [4] The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.

The only link we have to eternity is love this is the strong contrast that Paul is trying to present to the Corinthians.

Just my opinion, that tongues had already ceased, but he's making the argument that prophesy and knowledge continue till that which is perfect comes. Now we see in part we can't know all truth in Scripture we are told His knowledge is above the heavens and below the grave, but when the thing which is referenced as perfect comes well know even as we are known.

Waiting on him · May 22, 2020

marks said:
I actually have a piece of this in my rock collection, about the size of half a dinner plate. Looks just like this, very hard white rock with layers of these sheets embedded in it.

Cool stuff!

I've probably knapped a ton of Obsidian and I don't believe I've ever seen my reflection in it?

Hidden In Him · May 22, 2020

marks said:
But if we are thinking in terms of, seeing in a mirror darkly, but then face to face, then we will know ourselves in the same way God knows us.

I agree with some of the other comments in the post, but the analogy falls through here. Certainly we can see ourselves in the mirror, but the reference to "seeing face to face" in Heaven is without a mirror. If the reference is to seeing Christ Jesus, who is the Spirit of prophecy, then it makes perfect sense. But if it is a reference to seeing ourselves face to face, and without a mirror... that's kinda existential, don't you think?

Waiting on him · May 22, 2020

My opinion is egotism was the issue Paul was addressing at Corynth. To prophesy just simply means to speak the word of God before men, but of course everyone currently wants some supernatural sign but all we see is the superficial.

marks · May 22, 2020

Hidden In Him said:
I agree with some of the other comments in the post, but the analogy falls through here. Certainly we can see ourselves in the mirror, but the reference to "seeing face to face" in Heaven is without a mirror. If the reference is to seeing Christ Jesus, who is the Spirit of prophecy, then it makes perfect sense. But if it is a reference to seeing ourselves face to face, and without a mirror... that's kinda existential, don't you think?

Existential? Not sure what you mean.

Seeing face to face would be speaking of "not in an enigma", going back to Moses. God spoke with Moses face to face, but to others in enigmas, what that right? If Paul has that passage in mind, and he's thinking, not in enigmas, the opposite, face to face.

But I'm really thinking beyond that too.

2 Corinthians 3:18, that other mirror passage, well, starting back a bit,

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Where do we most see Jesus? In this world?

Until the heart turns to the Lord, we don't see Him at all. And not seeing Him, we truly do not see ourselves. "It is not yet revealed what we shall be, but when we see Him, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is".

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Our walk is by faith and not by sight, but we do have in sight one thing, ourselves. We can see in ourselves the difference God has made in our lives. The changes in how we think and feel and what is important, and how we act. And that change is seeing Jesus bringing His life into me. He has taken up residence, and is in the business of conforming us to be like Him, each of us in a way unique to each of us. Our true identity. Unknown until now, and not fully knowable until that day.

The more I see Him formed in me, the more this builds my faith to receive more of Him. Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, God's light shone into our hearts, and from our hearts, giving the light of knowing God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ. Our treasure, in earthen vessels. Jesus. Revealing Himself to us as He conforms our lives to be like His.

We don't see Him well, He's not yet formed. And we won't see the finished work until that day. But then, no more enigma!

It's an interesting discussion, and I can't say 1000% which way I see this, but the above is how it has me thinking.

Much love!

Waiting on him · May 22, 2020

marks said:
Existential? Not sure what you mean.

Seeing face to face would be speaking of "not in an enigma", going back to Moses. God spoke with Moses face to face, but to others in enigmas, what that right? If Paul has that passage in mind, and he's thinking, not in enigmas, the opposite, face to face.

But I'm really thinking beyond that too.

2 Corinthians 3:18, that other mirror passage, well, starting back a bit,

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Where do we most see Jesus? In this world?

Until the heart turns to the Lord, we don't see Him at all. And not seeing Him, we truly do not see ourselves. "It is not yet revealed what we shall be, but when we see Him, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is".

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Our walk is by faith and not by sight, but we do have in sight one thing, ourselves. We can see in ourselves the difference God has made in our lives. The changes in how we think and feel and what is important, and how we act. And that change is seeing Jesus bringing His life into me. He has taken up residence, and is in the business of conforming us to be like Him, each of us in a way unique to each of us. Our true identity. Unknown until now, and not fully knowable until that day.

The more I see Him formed in me, the more this builds my faith to receive more of Him. Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, God's light shone into our hearts, and from our hearts, giving the light of knowing God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ. Our treasure, in earthen vessels. Jesus. Revealing Himself to us as He conforms our lives to be like His.

We don't see Him well, He's not yet formed. And we won't see the finished work until that day. But then, no more enigma!

It's an interesting discussion, and I can't say 1000% which way I see this, but the above is how it has me thinking.

Much love!

What in your opinion is it that prevents Christ from being formed in an individual?

Hidden In Him · May 22, 2020

marks said:
God spoke with Moses face to face, but to others in enigmas, what that right? If Paul has that passage in mind, and he's thinking, not in enigmas, the opposite, face to face.

Yes. As God spoke with Moses face to face on earth, so will He speak with us face to face in Heaven.

marks said:
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Excellent verse, and again referring back to 1 Corinthians 13:12. In this life we are being changed from glory to glory by seeing through a glass darkly, i.e. by receiving the prophetic word that opens our eyes and brings us to repentance, perfecting holiness in the sight of God. "Beholding" is in present tense, which means he was talking about something they were doing then while still alive.

The words "are changed," btw, are a little misleading here. In the Greek it actually reads, "are being transformed" (indicative present passive).

farouk · May 22, 2020

Waiting on him said:
My opinion is egotism was the issue Paul was addressing at Corynth. To prophesy just simply means to speak the word of God before men, but of course everyone currently wants some supernatural sign but all we see is the superficial.

There is so much in God's Word to exhaust our lives with all its divine fulness already, that for ppl to be dissatisfied with what has already been revealed in Scripture seems very odd...

marks · May 22, 2020

Waiting on him said:
What in your opinion is it that prevents Christ from being formed in an individual?

Unbelief. When we are trusting Jesus we walk in the Spirit, walking in the works prepared for us, learning of Him.

I always think about Peter and the waves, he knew he could do anything if Jesus told him to, so he told Jesus, if it's You, tell me to come to You. And in obedience and faith Peter stepped out of the boat onto the stormy sea. But when Peter's focus was drawn off of Jesus, just obeying His command trusting Him for whatever was going to happen, Peter became afraid, forgetting about Jesus' power, dropping into the sea.

As long as we believe what He's told us, we remain in grace, receiving from His Spirit. Poor, confusing, or just plain wrong teaching, feelings of guilt and condemnation, I think many things contribute to a lack of faith.

Mostly that we so deeply believe we have to be good enough in some way or another, but the simple and liberating truth is that God justifies the ungodly. So we need to just let go of the idea that we can stop God from getting what He wants, and that a family that wants to be got. True love, freely given from both sides, His, and ours.

Much love!

marks · May 22, 2020

Hidden In Him said:
Yes. As God spoke with Moses face to face on earth, so will He speak with us face to face in Heaven.

And so my not 1000%, there's good sense here also.

Excellent verse, and again referring back to 1 Corinthians 13:12. In this life we are being changed from glory to glory by seeing through a glass darkly, i.e. by receiving the prophetic word that opens our eyes and brings us to repentance, perfecting holiness in the sight of God. "Beholding" is in present tense, which means he was talking about something they were doing then while still alive.

In the 2 Corinthians 3, there is no enigma spoken of. In 1 Corinthians 13 we are "seeing in a glass in an enigma", in 2 Corinthians 3 he's saying we are beholding in a glass the glory of the Lord, which transforms us.

Consider what Glory means to God. "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." Jesus' greatest glory in this world was His obedience to God's will unto death, even an horrible death like that. The glory we see, I think, is our growing obedience, and the fruitfulness this brings.

I don't see that we should combine the two passages to get a third meaning not actually contained in either passage, that begin prophetic revelation. I think in particular this place in 2 Corinthians is speaking of something very different, and more profound, the forming of Christ within us by an all encompassing revelation of Himself within us.

This would be another picture of, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works within you to will and to do what pleases Him.

On the one hand, He is working through us, and we see His glory, and seeing His glory changes us to become more like Him. And on the other hand, as we see what He is working in us, we are to chase after that. His desires that He puts in us, we know what they are, whatever they are. His ability, that's what brings our lives purpose and harmony and peace.

Much love!

Hidden In Him · May 22, 2020

marks said:
In the 2 Corinthians 3, there is no enigma spoken of. In 1 Corinthians 13 we are "seeing in a glass in an enigma", in 2 Corinthians 3 he's saying we are beholding in a glass the glory of the Lord

Yes, but the words "in an enigma" are what are often translated as "darkly," since glass was not high quality back then. And since he is again referring to beholding the Glory of the Lord "in a glass," he is referring to the same thing. Otherwise it's sort of an odd expression that can't be tied to anything.

marks said:
Consider what Glory means to God. "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." Jesus' greatest glory in this world was His obedience to God's will unto death, even an horrible death like that. The glory we see, I think, is our growing obedience, and the fruitfulness this brings.

I don't see that we should combine the two passages to get a third meaning not actually contained in either passage, that begin prophetic revelation. I think in particular this place in 2 Corinthians is speaking of something very different, and more profound, the forming of Christ within us by an all encompassing revelation of Himself within us.

The trouble there would be that that if what we are seeing is "the forming of Christ within us," that in and of itself is our transformation. So you have our transformation bringing about our transformation, which is a rather odd argument for Paul to be making.

marks · May 22, 2020

Hidden In Him said:
Yes, but the words "in an enigma" are what are often translated as "darkly," since glass was not high quality back then. And since he is again referring to beholding the Glory of the Lord "in a glass," he is referring to the same thing. Otherwise it's sort of an odd expression that can't be tied to anything.

You are adding a word that's not there, and changing the meaning while doing so.

In a glass, seeing in a mirror, was the common use for the word, to my understanding. But regardless, "In an enigma" seeing a reflection, or seeing a view of something, to, seeing a reflection in a riddle.

The "thing you see in", this does not carry by itself the meaning of a lack of clarity, though we think of it that way. Some of these were very flat, very polished, and highly reflective. 1 Corinthians 13 includes the adverb, darkly, which establishes in that case this meaning.

But there is no cause to transfer that meaning to the other passage, it simply speaks of seeing the reflection.

Much love!

Hidden In Him · May 22, 2020

marks said:
You are adding a word that's not there, and changing the meaning while doing so.

In a glass, seeing in a mirror, was the common use for the word, to my understanding. But regardless, "In an enigma" seeing a reflection, or seeing a view of something, to, seeing a reflection in a riddle.

The "thing you see in", this does not carry by itself the meaning of a lack of clarity, though we think of it that way. Some of these were very flat, very polished, and highly reflective. 1 Corinthians 13 includes the adverb, darkly, which establishes in that case this meaning.

But there is no cause to transfer that meaning to the other passage, it simply speaks of seeing the reflection.

Much love!

It's an inference, based on what he is saying about "beholding as in a glass" in 1 Corinthians 13. Some do not tie the two passages together. I however do.

God bless.

marks · May 22, 2020

Hidden In Him said:
It's an inference, based on what he is saying about "beholding as in a glass" in 1 Corinthians 13. Some do not tie the two passages together. I however do.

God bless.

I understand.

Do you see the meaning otherwise?

Much love!

ScottA · May 22, 2020

Hidden In Him said:
Well, on this I would need you to cite a scriptural precedent for me. Now we have the case of Balaam, but even he apparently had a relationship with God despite not being an Israelite. It was his relationship with the Lord that made him a prophet to begin with.

Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Here again "all" means all. But the point is, of course God pours out His spirit on sinners...or it would mean that He does not pour out His spirit on any flesh." Which simply is not true.

Hidden In Him said:
I have to confess Scott that you are one of a couple people on this forum whose theology I have never completely gotten a full handle on yet (Byrd would be another, and God help me with that but all things are possible, LoL). But I honestly don't know that I understand your position here.

So define for me exactly what you believe will be the fulfillment in practical terms of Joel 2:28.

Not "will be", but rather is. God created (made manifest) "all that was made" and all that is made -- there is no other Creator. As such, all things have their origin in God whom is spirit. If He did not pour out His spirit, nothing and no one, would exist. This is practical.

Therefore, if all things and all people have their origin in God and by God, there is no past, present, or future to the out pouring of the spirit from God, for He is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." It is only when one is separated from God that anyone does not exist in that same way, but only by perception, which is not the truth, but the error of the blind and the lost. It simply isn't true. This is eternal life to many, but also eternal damnation to others. And if eternal and not past, present, and future...what then of this time of decision? Do you not know that all that was and is made manifest was before the foundation of the world? Indeed it was. "All."

Hidden In Him · May 23, 2020

ScottA said:
Not "will be", but rather is. God created (made manifest) "all that was made" and all that is made -- there is no other Creator. As such, all things have their origin in God whom is spirit. If He did not pour out His spirit, nothing and no one, would exist. This is practical.

Scott, the one thing I do remember from reading your posts in the past was that you very heavily spiritualized scripture, and in places where it should not be spiritualized. Joel 2:28 is not about creation. It is about a specific point in history after creation where the Spirit of God is poured out upon His people, leading to dreams, visions and prophecy becoming abundantly manifest in the earth. Likewise, the day of Pentecost did not take place at creation. It was an event which took place at a specific time in history, thousands of years removed from when God first created man.

I fear this may be a short conversation again, LoL.

Heart2Soul · May 23, 2020

Hidden In Him said:
Scott, the one thing I do remember from reading your posts in the past was that you very heavily spiritualized scripture, and in places where it should not be spiritualized. Joel 2:28 is not about creation. It is about a specific point in history after creation where the Spirit of God is poured out upon His people, leading to dreams, visions and prophecy becoming abundantly manifest in the earth. Likewise, the day of Pentecost did not take place at creation. It was an event which took place at a specific time in history, thousands of years removed from when God first created man.

I fear this may be a short conversation again, LoL.

Hi @Scott and @Hidden In Him....I hope I am not being rude by including myself into your conversation but if you will permit I would like to suggest the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will be upon all flesh but will manifest in many ways...to the unbeliever it will prick their hearts having experienced the presence, power and anointing of the Holy Spirit...they will be drawn to Him to receive salvation or they will reject His drawing and harden their heart and will be turned over to a reprobate mind....
to the believer the outpour will manifest in multiple ways depending on where we are in our spiritual growth but mainly we will be united together in one accord and one faith....
the manifestation of His Glory and Power will result in signs and wonders and supernatural healing and deliverance....

This is how I see it in my spirit...

FollowHim · May 23, 2020

marks said:
Merely trying to be descriptive of the school of thought. Some of the names I've heard are Latter Rain, New Wine, and Second Outpouring.

Much love!

At around 2008 I decided I wanted to know where my old fellowship had got to. Turns out they had gone fully into the prosperity gospel, Benny Hinn, the NAR and were showing a guy called Todd Bentley in florida. Very strange revival, drunken behaviour, drop kicking someone to heal them, talking about angels giving blessings of gold, open heaven places, praise without focus, no repentance or calling people to Christ and faith, just a weird group experience with the Spirit flowing. Then Todd turned out to be having an affair at the time of this ministry with a team member, and nothing really added up.

Then you see Kenneth Hagin, no need to repent you are eternally forgiven, past, present future of sins, so you are free of condemnation or grief or sorrow over sin, that is just satan, you should walk in victory though still a sinner sinning. Roll forward a bit and you get Hyper grace, a movement saying name it claim it, prosperity is what God will give you, nothing is too good for Gods people. Gods people are about to usher in Christ, and will rule the earth as His church. Latter rain was a heresy in the AOG church which had died in the 1950's but now was back again, this time with greater influence.

No morality was the first step. Then came the spirit of Jezebel. In the church there were legalists who condemned people for real sin, and they should be rooted out and expelled and the church become clean. So you meet hate filled cleansers of the righteous hypocrites.

So here am I, love Jesus and walk in His ways, know His life working in your heart. I am the enemy, the worst thing in the world, worse than murderers. The sermon on the mount was for the jews to show them how they failed in righteousness to drive them on to Jesus. To me quite simply this is not a christian faith, but a get zapped and you are in heaven no conditions applied. But the venom against churches and believers was unbelievable. At every possible level, and so many, maybe 50% of forum contributors.

And worse still prophecy was their motivation. Prophecy spoke the truth, so a prophet could go into a church, tell women who they should be married to, ie change husbands and caused terrible confusion. You get the idea, dabbling in speaking God to man, is just trial and error, give it a go. So reams of prophets now spout utter junk and it does not matter. The principles of Christ are just trampled on from top to bottom.

And knowing Gods word is probably lowest on the list, because we have the spirit. It soon becomes which spirit and how is it working, if at all.
So it is enough to say there is little that adds up any more, and the churches are emptying because this is just self destruction.

So where are the prophets? Telling the church it is about to not exist, and the salt that has lost its saltiness will just be trampled out of existence.
God can raise up people who know Him and walk with Him, so there are no issues. What people should fear is what will they become?

Waiting on him · May 23, 2020

FollowHim said:
At around 2008 I decided I wanted to know where my old fellowship had got to. Turns out they had gone fully into the prosperity gospel, Benny Hinn, the NAR and were showing a guy called Todd Bentley in florida. Very strange revival, drunken behaviour, drop kicking someone to heal them, talking about angels giving blessings of gold, open heaven places, praise without focus, no repentance or calling people to Christ and faith, just a weird group experience with the Spirit flowing. Then Todd turned out to be having an affair at the time of this ministry with a team member, and nothing really added up.

Then you see Kenneth Hagin, no need to repent you are eternally forgiven, past, present future of sins, so you are free of condemnation or grief or sorrow over sin, that is just satan, you should walk in victory though still a sinner sinning. Roll forward a bit and you get Hyper grace, a movement saying name it claim it, prosperity is what God will give you, nothing is too good for Gods people. Gods people are about to usher in Christ, and will rule the earth as His church. Latter rain was a heresy in the AOG church which had died in the 1950's but now was back again, this time with greater influence.

No morality was the first step. Then came the spirit of Jezebel. In the church there were legalists who condemned people for real sin, and they should be rooted out and expelled and the church become clean. So you meet hate filled cleansers of the righteous hypocrites.

So here am I, love Jesus and walk in His ways, know His life working in your heart. I am the enemy, the worst thing in the world, worse than murderers. The sermon on the mount was for the jews to show them how they failed in righteousness to drive them on to Jesus. To me quite simply this is not a christian faith, but a get zapped and you are in heaven no conditions applied. But the venom against churches and believers was unbelievable. At every possible level, and so many, maybe 50% of forum contributors.

And worse still prophecy was their motivation. Prophecy spoke the truth, so a prophet could go into a church, tell women who they should be married to, ie change husbands and caused terrible confusion. You get the idea, dabbling in speaking God to man, is just trial and error, give it a go. So reams of prophets now spout utter junk and it does not matter. The principles of Christ are just trampled on from top to bottom.

And knowing Gods word is probably lowest on the list, because we have the spirit. It soon becomes which spirit and how is it working, if at all.
So it is enough to say there is little that adds up any more, and the churches are emptying because this is just self destruction.

So where are the prophets? Telling the church it is about to not exist, and the salt that has lost its saltiness will just be trampled out of existence.
God can raise up people who know Him and walk with Him, so there are no issues. What people should fear is what will they become?

I'd refer to this as the little season.

Hidden In Him · May 23, 2020

Heart2Soul said:
Hi @Scott and @Hidden In Him....I hope I am not being rude by including myself into your conversation but if you will permit I would like to suggest the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will be upon all flesh but will manifest in many ways...to the unbeliever it will prick their hearts having experienced the presence, power and anointing of the Holy Spirit...they will be drawn to Him to receive salvation or they will reject His drawing and harden their heart and will be turned over to a reprobate mind....
to the believer the outpour will manifest in multiple ways depending on where we are in our spiritual growth but mainly we will be united together in one accord and one faith....
the manifestation of His Glory and Power will result in signs and wonders and supernatural healing and deliverance....

This is how I see it in my spirit...

Well, I think this might fit Scott's interpretation of things better than mine. I think it will be the exclusive domain of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ during the end-times, similar to how Pentecost saw the Spirit poured out specifically upon the disciples of our Lord during the New Testament era.

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