Jn 4: 42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. Christ was the Saviour from the beginning of the World, All the benefits of Jesus christ death, were bestowed upon the elect of the world in their various time frames of life, since the beginning of the world, deriving its virtue from the blood of the everlasting covenant, which Christ was Head, Mediator, and Surety of before the world began..
jn 4:42 The Saviour of the World
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and that "world" means that each and every single person who has ever lived and who will ever live will be saved is your addition and is not scriptural... the word 'world" means different things in different passages.... blessings,ken
You dont understand what i mean, is obvious, for I am speaking of the elect world, all who belong to the election of grace from day 1 of creation to the last day of this worlds exisitence are Saved by Jesus christ blood.. This however excludes the seed of the devil, they have no Saviour, they will suffer eternal damnation for their own sins..wether you agree or not its true..
on the one hand, you are right that I do not fully understand the points you are often trying to make, or perhaps better, what it is exactly you are trying to emphasize... on the other, the point is that you have your presuppositions in the way you approach the bible such that when you read a certain scripture you 'see" your belief present in the text.. of course the difficulty is getting at our presuppositions and trying to determine whether or not our presuppositions are actually themselves biblical...blessings,ken
So how do we tell? Maybe if we shave everyone's head we will see 666. I mean I would not want to wast my time if someone is already going to Hell and there would be nothing we could do about it.We just want to preach to the "Elect" It will save church dollars, and time. It would be a much more efficient. Jesus Is Lord
brothermike.. by way of not so much a defense of savedbygrace's methodology, but in general a defense of sovereign grace etc... the question of "so then how can we tell who the elect are...?" types of questions go.. the answer from that perspective is simply that it is not important for us to ask... in other words, from a sovereign grace, election, predestination perspective, it is not our business to try and figure out who the elect are or aren't... that is God's business... but what we are supposed to do is to preach the gospel to all the world knowing that God will sometimes use us as the very instruments by which He will call His elect unto Himself, where He will use the preaching/teaching of the Holy Word of God, or perhaps a hymn or song, etc to regenerate someone's heart, giving them the faith to believe and to be saved... doing, as Ezekiel so beautifully illustrates, taking out their heart of stone and putting in a heart of flesh so that they may be able to walk in God's ways....secondly preaching to someone who is of the non-elect is not without it's purpose... just as we knew that God would harden Pharaoh's heart, yet Moses time and time again came and preached God's word, the word of God did not go out without accomplishing exactly what it was supposed to accomplish... in the case of Pharaoh or others like him, the purpose is to further harden...Rom 9:13-23 ESV As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--"a larger point here is that all evangelical/conservative Christians agree that God, from eternity past, knows exactly who the company of heaven is comprised of... He knows exactly who will be saved and who won't, and when someone comes to Him for salvation, this is never a surprise to Him... does anyone on earth know who will eventually be saved and who won't? no, of course not... so you preach to everyone knowing that you can't know who will eventually be saved and who won't... but as far as the fact that some will be saved and some won't goes, and that God, being omniscient knows exactly who those people will be... the issue is the same for both those who affirm sovereign grace/predestination to salvation etc, versus those who are of the free will or Arminian persuasion.... the number of the saved is definite in God's mind, and can't be changed for this would imply that God is not perfect, that He is ignorant, that He can be surprised etc... so there is really no use in asking who will eventually one day be saved and who won't from either perspective, for on the one hand God knows those who are His regardless of what you believe about predestination etc, and on the other since we can't know who those people are we must just bow our heads in obedience to the command to preach the gospel..hope this helps... not that you agree with the position of sovereign grace per se... but that you know, from within that perspective the answer to your objection... that it really can't be an objection against sovereign grace for if it was, the same objection would apply to Arminians as well as Augustinians since in both cases both sets of believers affirm God's exhaustive foreknowledge and, no matter what your beliefs are about election, we will all be preaching to some who are lost and who will never come to God for salvation. blessings,ken
Brother Mike,I can't see how preaching the Gospel to anyone is a waste of time. Maybe its just because I don't subscribe to the belief that there is a preset "elect". I understand that God knows who will accompany him in heaven at the end of time... and I accept that. But that is not for us to know, and because God gave us free-will, everyone has an oppertunity and ability to accept his Word and convert. As far as bringing presuppositions to Scripture... everyone does it. It's called "Hermeneutic", and it happens not only in Scripture, but in every facet of human epistemology. Some say that even by asking the question we have already limited the answer we can find. I think the key (and this is just my personal bias perhaps), is linking the hermeneutic one brings to the greater teaching tradition of the Church, who was vested authority to guide our interpretation of scripture.
I agree with some points all have made, and disagree with some For one thing we all have a free will to chose even the tares can be saved should they chose ...Only one has been judged to death utter destruction and that is Satan all else in this age of Grace have a choice ... We are not to judge who is lost who is not Only God can do that ...Our job is not to decide who is worthy of receiving the seed ..But to plant it only....If it grows or not is up to God not us .... The fact is, there is no final judgement yet on humans and wont be until the milliueum ..One who was lost yesterday maybe found tomorrow
Why do you question my post? jesus came and died on the cross to sve people, John 3:16. People are hungry these days as Amos 8:11 declares there crying out for spiritual help and comfort because there suffering without jesus. Im going to do evrything in my power to save those people and offer them a diffrent route. Here are some other scriptures that should help you as well. Psalms 119:105, Psalms 119:30, Proverbs 6:23, Ecclesiastes 2:13. Jesus is our way and people need to stop pretending these days because when christ returns were going to have the ultimate choice and we are going to have to choose between antichrist or jesus returning in all his glory.savedbygrace57;72031 said:
I agree... Are we supposed to assume that Jesus saves those who do not accept his gift of sacrifice? It may not be strictly Biblical, (However gumby has iterated some good verses), but it is logical. Logically, either you can think Christ saves all people regardless of their acceptance, or Christ saves only those who accept him.
Believe it or not I agree with Christina on this one Calvinism is false from it root.Christina;72049]I agree with some points all have made said:
epistemaniac: Thank you so much!!! I understood everything you said, and it made perfect sense. I don't agree with any of it of course, but it was well written, and I understood your point. God being great God, but one that hates sin, will judge a man. We see this judgment during the flood of Noah, and we see judgment at Sodom. These were not people that would ever listen to the truth, but did stay around awhile to get a chance. Who was Pharaoh? someone that served other gods, someone that invoked the help of sorcerers. Someone that knew about the God of the Hebrews, and mocked that. Rom 9:22 What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?(I) The truth is that God put up with Pharaoh for a long time, because of his mercy. Pharaoh could have gotten right, but refused. There is a point that what you have sown will have to be reaped. It is spiritual Law. So God used Pharaoh and hardened his Heart with the Word. It also says that Pharaoh harden his own heart. 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Esau? Now Jesus was not upset about adultery but it really seemed to upset God about selling your birth right. He sold it for a bowl of food!! Thats how much it meant to him. There was a reason God was upset at Esau. Esau did something to make God upset!!! As did Pharaoh. To say God has already ordained who is going to be saved and not saved contradicts many scriptures. To numerous to post here. Of course God does not like sin, and those that did wrong to God's people in the Old and New got rewarded, but they did something Wrong, God did not just go and start destroying at his whim. This doctrine also takes away "FAITH". Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Abraham had to believe something, and He choose to do just that. It was Abraham's faith that was counted as righteousness, not something God just dumped on him.Look at Rehab the Harlot. Her faith saved her and her family!!! People had to respond to the Word. Without faith you can not please God.If it was just God picking and choosing then no point in mentioning faith. At least in the Way faith is presented.We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, something we choose to believe. Here is a favorite scripture of those that believe in Pre-Election.2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Yes, Jesus at the foundation of the World, but they still had the choice to believe the truth or not. It was part of the condition, that if any man will confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus. ANY MAN!!I don't suppose you agree with a word I said, but my hope is you see where I am coming from.Be blessedJesus is Lord.
[quote name='Jordan;72056]Because that is what savedbygrace57 does... he is blinded by his own pride and calls everybody wrong... all he does is causes strife against the Body of Christ. There is however a little disagreement with me concerning your post... Nobody' date=' no sinner can save another sinner... it's clear that is Christ's job. Not ours. You can lead one to Christ, but we can't save them. Blessings[/QUOTE'] I agree i cannot save a person i can lead them to christ though and let christs light reflect on them by it being inside me. Thats my point we need to spread our light that christ has given us and then christ can work once we start doing it his way and creating oportunities for people to come to him and be saved. Luke 8:16 will help you understand where im coming from. God bless you jordon 
Some People , His People Matt 1: 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. And He only Loved His own in the world Jn 13: 1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. Jesus doesnt Love nor did He die for the devils seed..
Maybe its not God will you learn to spell or capitalize when you need to. It could be that your Pre-elected to be confusing and unable to formulate thoughts. You make no sense most of the time. It could be God's will that your not bright enough to explain what you mean, because you just run on and on when questioned and never address anyone in a civil and intelligent matter. It could be God's Will that you misuse scripture and has given you over to a mind of the dreaded "Scripture confusion disease" OH NO!!! Who could question God if He has done these things to you. He is so sovereign, and His ways past finding out.
For God so loved The WORLD!!! that He GAVE!!! That is everyone!!! 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. do you know what the word ALL means? I won't hold my breath.Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. His ministry was to the JEWS!!! It would really help if you read the WHOLE account of the four Gospels!!!I could go on, but it gets old when you put others down. This is how we know them, that they LOVE the brethren. Your answers to others is in a derogatory fashion, and your not smart enough to expound on what your babbling about. I may be writing a report on this false garbage you mumble, on and on about. Only, unlike you, I will put it in a easy to understand format. I would not even be responding, if you had any love or grace about you. You have a lot of Pride and arrogance, and you can't even formulate a thought. Amazing.
The reason why I make no sense to you most of the time is because your spiritually blind to the Truth i am witnessing to, its foolishness to the natural mind 1 cor 2: 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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