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Illuminator

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Understand the monumental task of the Oneness apologist: he must overturn our common sense intuition that when the Bible speaks of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the Bible is in fact speaking of three persons rather than one. That is to say, on the face of it, it would appear that a plain reading of the text clearly presents three distinct persons, since we have numerous verses that indicate communication and relationship between persons, such as when Jesus prayed to his Father and the Holy Spirit descended upon him. In other words, since the common sense plain reading of the text indicates three distinct persons, the burden of proof is without a doubt on the Oneness person to show the common sense plain reading is false.
The Trinitarian does not have the burden of proof.

The Trinity - A short exposition by Francis J. Beckwith
 
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marksman

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You are the one that profiled the Church with sex scandals (which is just as hideous as racial profiling) in response to my post on cults, which was unfair and irrational. And I retain the right to expose your bigotry. I suggest you stop using the outdated sex abuse crisis as a red herring and an attack, because it collapses on itself.

Not in my country. It is an ongoing issue.
 

marksman

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WRONG and heretical.

Peter and the rest of the NT Church understood that Baptizing "in the name of Jesus" was Baptizing by His AUTHORITY.

It’s precisely like the knight who declares things "in the name of the king". It doesn't mean that he and the King have the same name. He is declaring by the King's AUTHORITY.

Jesus said to Baptize in name of the Father AND OF the Son AND OF the Holy Spirit.
That is His AUTHORITY – and that is what we read in the verses you posted.

YOUR "oneness" perversion came more than 1500 years later . . .
No comment.
 

marksman

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51LAbRH5nsL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

In this stunning, powerful, and ultimately persuasive book, Rodney Stark, one of the most highly regarded sociologists of religion and bestselling author of The Rise of Christianity (HarperSanFrancisco 1997) argues that some of our most firmly held ideas about history, ideas that paint the Catholic Church in the least positive light are, in fact, fiction. Why have we held these wrongheaded ideas so strongly and for so long? And if our beliefs are wrong, what, in fact, is the truth?
In each chapter, Stark takes on a well-established anti-Catholic myth, gives a fascinating history of how each myth became the conventional wisdom, and presents a startling picture of the real truth. see full review here

Note: Rodney Stark, one of the most highly regarded sociologists of religion, IS NOT A CATHOLIC, thus has no doctrinal bias.

Everyone has a doctrinal bias. If they didn't they would believe nothing. And it is my policy to not make a distinction based on one book. When I was studying New Testament history I read over 60 books.
 

mjrhealth

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You are the one that profiled the Church with sex scandals (which is just as hideous as racial profiling) in response to my post on cults, which was unfair and irrational. And I retain the right to expose your bigotry. I suggest you stop using the outdated sex abuse crisis as a red herring and an attack, because it collapses on itself.
God reserves the right to expose mens, though very few will listen, something about lies....
 

user

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I say to all those that have not been baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus, why are you ignoring the direct teaching of scripture and denying yourself the benefit that comes when you are baptized in the name of Jesus.? We ALL need to put Christ on and baptism by immersion is the way that it happens.

Many do not realize that being baptized any other way than full immersion and in the name of Jesus, is denying Jesus and his Name.

They deny his Name by omitting it in baptism and replacing it with "Father, Son, Holy Ghost"

Father is not a Name (the same way "father" is not the name of your father)
Son is not a Name (the same way "son" is not the name of your son)
Holy Ghost is not a Name (the same way "wife or husband" is not the name of your wife or husband)

Matthew 28:19 was telling them what to "do" not what to repeat verbatim. And which they carried out in the book of Acts.

Keep up the good work.
God Bless!
 

user

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Repentance and belief is necessary for salvation, but the Bible never says baptism is necessary for salvation, any more that it was necessary for the thief on the cross.

Hi Stan, good to see you again. Hope all is well and good with you and yours.

As you probably already are aware - but perhaps may disagree. Without a burial there can be no resurrection ...

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

The thief on the cross was saved prior to the birth of the N.T. Church (the Book of Acts Church) because although Jesus was close to death he was not yet dead...

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.


Love ya in Christ.
Take care,
God Bless!
 
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user

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Peter and the rest of the NT Church understood that Baptizing "in the name of Jesus" was Baptizing by His AUTHORITY.

It’s precisely like the knight who declares things "in the name of the king". It doesn't mean that he and the King have the same name. He is declaring by the King's AUTHORITY.

Yes it is by His Authority, but it is also most assuredly, by His NAME! The name which you deny by omitting his name and replacing it with "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" which are not names.

And, what is the Name of the KING...

Is his name father?
Is his name son?
Is his name holy ghost?

I tell you, and proclaim gladly and boldly, my king is the King of kings, and His Name is Jesus!






Jesus said to Baptize in name of the Father AND OF the Son AND OF the Holy Spirit.
That is His AUTHORITY – and that is what we read in the verses you posted.

"oneness" perversion came more than 1500 years later . . .


Yes and what is that Name. Let's ask the apostles...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.


And, God being ONE is not a perversion. He has always been one. Amazing you call this a "perversion"...

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:


With the love of Christ,
God Bless!
 
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Stan B

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>>Hi Stan, good to see you again. Hope all is well and good with you and yours.

It has been a while since we saw you here. I am surviving, but with all the lockdowns, life isn't all that much fun these days.

>>The thief on the cross was saved prior to the birth of the N.T. Church (the Book of Acts Church) because although Jesus was close to death he was not yet dead...

A rather slim timeline there, but there is no information on who went first.

While I agree with most of your comments, the only issue I have is the necessity of baptism for salvation. I don't believe it is necessary! I can think if a number of situations where a new believer would not have an opportunity for baptism. Do you really figure they would be denied entrance to Heaven on that basis? I don't!

As the Bible states in many places, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, without mentioning baptism. There was only one requirement specified.

I tend to believe that the purpose for baptism is a public declaration of faith.

The Early Church did not believe it was necessary for salvation, and to that end, as I read the very Early Church Fathers, if one wanted to be baptized, they would first be required to take a 6 month course of study so they know what they were undertaking (pre-Bible days). Then after taking the course, at the baptism, they would be required to publically recite the creed, and then give an account of what they believed. There seemed to be no urgency to the matter.

Urgency was only introduced with Augustine and Jerome in the 4th century. They introduced the pagan concept that even a baby who had not been "baptized" with their pagan holy water nonsense could never Heaven without being sprinkled.
 

BreadOfLife

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Yes it is by His Authority, but it is also most assuredly, by His NAME! The name which you deny by omitting his name and replacing it with "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" which are not names.

And, what is the Name of the KING...

Is his name father?
Is his name son?
Is his name holy ghost?

I tell you, and proclaim gladly and boldly, my king is the King of kings, and His Name is Jesus!
Yes and what is that Name. Let's ask the apostles...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
And, God being ONE is not a perversion. He has always been one. Amazing you call this a "perversion"...
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

With the love of Christ,
God Bless!
Once again – what YOU and your fellow “Oneness” friends fail to grasp is the meaning of the term, “In the name of”.

It does NOT mean “recite the actual name” – otherwise, you wouldn’t baptize in the name of “Jesus Christ.”
“Christ”
is a TITLE – not a name.

This not only destroys your position – but completely supports the notion that “in the name of” is simply talking about AUTHORITY.

Philologists have ALWAYS recognized this to be the case.
According to English Language & Usage Stack Exchange/:
Putting all religious contentions aside for the sake of our language, the etymology of name offers a good place to start understanding: Old English nama, noma "name, REPUTATION," from Proto-Germanic *namon

(cognates: Old Saxon namo, Old Frisian nama, Old High German namo, German Name, Middle Dutch name, Dutch naam, Old Norse nafn, Gothic namo "name"),
from PIE *nomn- (cognates: Sanskrit nama; Avestan nama; Greek onoma, onyma; Latin nomen; Old Church Slavonic ime, genitive imene; Russian imya; Old Irish ainm; Old Welsh anu "name").


We've all experienced the power of
namedropping in our lives. People respect us and our opinions if they believe we are connected to someone with GREATER REPUTATION AND AUTHORITY.

In all cultures, people of authority have always lent their
REPUTATION and their AUTHORITY to their delegates. The founders and leaders of religious movements use the same delegation strategies as the founders and leaders of nations
. The English phrase in the name of simply asserts the REPUTATION and AUTHORITY of another person.

English Reports Annotated - Pages 1505-2672, 1505, page 2048:

...an action on a board given to trustees of an industrial society before the act may, after registration under the act, be brought in the name of the newly -incorporated body.

“In the name of” meaning:

Macmillan Dictionary
1. representing someone or something
2. using the authority given by someone or something

Collins Dictionary
1. in appeal or reference to
2. by the authority of; as the representative of

Idioms.TheReferenceDictionary.com
1. Based on the authority of someone or something. We proclaim these things in the name of God. In the name of King John, I command you to halt.
2. With someone or something as a basis, reason, or motivation.

Thesaurus.com
- through
- at the hand of
- supported by - through the agency of
- via - with
- through the medium of
- under the aegis of
- with the assistance of


As I indicated before – Jesus commanded the Apostle to Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Peter and the rest of the NT Church understood that Baptizing "in the name of Jesus" was Baptizing by His AUTHORITY.
 
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user

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Once again – what YOU and your fellow “Oneness” friends fail to grasp is the meaning of the term, “In the name of”.

It does NOT mean “recite the actual name” – otherwise, you wouldn’t baptize in the name of “Jesus Christ.”
“Christ”
is a TITLE – not a name.

This not only destroys your position – but completely supports the notion that “in the name of” is simply talking about AUTHORITY.

Philologists have ALWAYS recognized this to be the case.
According to English Language & Usage Stack Exchange/:
Putting all religious contentions aside for the sake of our language, the etymology of name offers a good place to start understanding: Old English nama, noma "name, REPUTATION," from Proto-Germanic *namon

(cognates: Old Saxon namo, Old Frisian nama, Old High German namo, German Name, Middle Dutch name, Dutch naam, Old Norse nafn, Gothic namo "name"),
from PIE *nomn- (cognates: Sanskrit nama; Avestan nama; Greek onoma, onyma; Latin nomen; Old Church Slavonic ime, genitive imene; Russian imya; Old Irish ainm; Old Welsh anu "name").


We've all experienced the power of
namedropping in our lives. People respect us and our opinions if they believe we are connected to someone with GREATER REPUTATION AND AUTHORITY.

In all cultures, people of authority have always lent their
REPUTATION and their AUTHORITY to their delegates. The founders and leaders of religious movements use the same delegation strategies as the founders and leaders of nations
. The English phrase in the name of simply asserts the REPUTATION and AUTHORITY of another person.

English Reports Annotated - Pages 1505-2672, 1505, page 2048:

...an action on a board given to trustees of an industrial society before the act may, after registration under the act, be brought in the name of the newly -incorporated body.

“In the name of” meaning:

Macmillan Dictionary
1. representing someone or something
2. using the authority given by someone or something

Collins Dictionary
1. in appeal or reference to
2. by the authority of; as the representative of

Idioms.TheReferenceDictionary.com
1. Based on the authority of someone or something. We proclaim these things in the name of God. In the name of King John, I command you to halt.
2. With someone or something as a basis, reason, or motivation.

Thesaurus.com
- through
- at the hand of
- supported by - through the agency of
- via - with
- through the medium of
- under the aegis of
- with the assistance of


As I indicated before – Jesus commanded the Apostle to Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Peter and the rest of the NT Church understood that Baptizing "in the name of Jesus" was Baptizing by His AUTHORITY.


Here are a few points you need to consider...

1. Baptism is “for the remission of sins”, or to “wash away sins” ...

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


2. The name of Jesus is the only name given for remission of sins. “Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43). Thus the proper way to seek remission of sins at baptism is to invoke the name of Jesus in faith. Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 not only connect remission of sins with water baptism, but they specifically connect remission of sins with water baptism in the name of Jesus.

3. Baptism is part of our salvation (Mark 16:16 and I Peter 3:21), and the name of Jesus is the only name given for salvation. “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts4:12). Thus the proper way to integrate water baptism with the New Testament salvation experience is to invoke the name of Jesus.

4. Baptism is a burial with Jesus Christ. To be buried with Jesus Christ is to be baptized in His name...

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


5. Baptism is part of our personal identification with Jesus Christ. “So many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death” (Romans6:3). “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Galatians 3:27). If we seek to be identified with Him, we need to take on His name.


6. Baptism is part of our spiritual circumcision, or initiation into the new covenant. Under the old covenant a male child officially received his name at his physical circumcision. Water baptism is the time when our new family name is invoked upon us at our spiritual circumcision.


Luke 1:59 And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father.

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Sooooo you can DENY Jesus all you wish. But remember, he will deny you too!

God Bless!
 

BreadOfLife

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Here are a few points you need to consider...

1. Baptism is “for the remission of sins”, or to “wash away sins” ...

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

2. The name of Jesus is the only name given for remission of sins. “Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43). Thus the proper way to seek remission of sins at baptism is to invoke the name of Jesus in faith. Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 not only connect remission of sins with water baptism, but they specifically connect remission of sins with water baptism in the name of Jesus.

3. Baptism is part of our salvation (Mark 16:16 and I Peter 3:21), and the name of Jesus is the only name given for salvation. “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts4:12). Thus the proper way to integrate water baptism with the New Testament salvation experience is to invoke the name of Jesus.

4. Baptism is a burial with Jesus Christ. To be buried with Jesus Christ is to be baptized in His name...

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


5. Baptism is part of our personal identification with Jesus Christ. “So many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death” (Romans6:3). “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Galatians 3:27). If we seek to be identified with Him, we need to take on His name.

6. Baptism is part of our spiritual circumcision, or initiation into the new covenant. Under the old covenant a male child officially received his name at his physical circumcision. Water baptism is the time when our new family name is invoked upon us at our spiritual circumcision.

Luke 1:59 And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father.

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Sooooo you can DENY Jesus all you wish. But remember, he will deny you too!

God Bless!
No - the only ones "denying" Jesus here is YOU and your fellow heretical "Oneness" friends.

Jesus COMMANDED His followers to Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. This was by HIS AUTHORITY - and you are denying this fact in favor of your perversion that He simply made a "mistake" that the Apostles later "corrected".

I gave you several etymological and philological sources that prove your position is as WRONG as abortion - but your spiritual pride won't allow you to admit your folly.

As for WHAT Baptism is and accomplishes - you don't have to tell me.
We Catholics are the ones who taught this to the world . . .
 

Bobby Jo

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This won't make anybody a Christian. You have to come through Jesus alone.

... an INCOMPLETE Christian, vs a COMPLETE Christian. :)

So many people think sitting in a pew makes them a Christian; or reading a book on some Christian topic makes them a Christian; or posting in a Christian Forum makes them a Christian.

Personally, I think accepting Jesus and OBEYING what Scripture says, -- BOTH OT & NT --, makes a person a Christian. It's just too bad we have so many of the former, and so few of the latter ...
Bobby Jo
 

Bobby Jo

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We believe ...

You're entitled to believe whatever you want. GOD gives you that free choice. -- However, your "beliefs" are not necessarily FACTS. Perhaps you would be better served obeying SCRIPTURE rather than Doctrines. :)

Bobby Jo
 

Bobby Jo

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Define cult.

Here is a definition from an etymology dictionary
Cult. An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree.

In other words by calling something a cult you are just saying you disagree with them.
You are just spouting meaningless verbiage.

Lol... @Mungo sorry, your talking to someone I blocked a long time ago. Didn't see the quotes lol.

See? Here's someone who not only understands what it means to DISBELIEVE what GOD says, and puts action to his "cult" thinking. :)

Bobby Jo
 

marksman

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Many do not realize that being baptized any other way than full immersion and in the name of Jesus, is denying Jesus and his Name.

They deny his Name by omitting it in baptism and replacing it with "Father, Son, Holy Ghost"

Father is not a Name (the same way "father" is not the name of your father)
Son is not a Name (the same way "son" is not the name of your son)
Holy Ghost is not a Name (the same way "wife or husband" is not the name of your wife or husband)

Matthew 28:19 was telling them what to "do" not what to repeat verbatim. And which they carried out in the book of Acts.

Keep up the good work.
God Bless!
100% correct.