Christian Ignorance

Untill one come into the knowledge, that they themselves wit hall there learning, know nothing, than they remain unteachable, A glass full needs to be emptied of what it contains so that it can be filled with what it need. Jesus used the "empty" vessels prepared for the sacrifice to be filled with water so that is could be turned into wine.

1Co_1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Amen

Rita said:

Have you ever read any of brother Yen’s books, or ever heard him speak - Chinese Christians have amazing testimonies, and they are often persecuted because they follow the Lord closely . Often having to meet in secret, they hunger for the word of God , they go miles to hear preaching and suffer much for their faith.....I am staggered that your pastor claims they don’t have the truth or knowledge we have, I would suspect they have more because they have to lean on The Holy Spirit, who has all the truth and knowledge - brother Yen actually comes to the western world to evangelise - because many don’t hunger as they need to.
Rita

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Do you mean Brother Yun, who wrote The Heavenly Man? He has an incredible testimony. Every Christian should read this book telling how God is spreading the gospel in China.

Jay Ross said:

Defined as: -

Christian people who do not know, that they do not know.​

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These scriptures come to mind:

John 16:13--When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come.

1 Corinthians 2:14--But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Spiritual truths must be spiritually discerned. This is one reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers--so that we CAN know the truth.... I think in the West, we place too much value on man's logic at the expense of spiritual discernment. If something in the Bible or something about God doesn't make sense, we need to seek His wisdom first and foremost!

Edit: I heard this humorous saying recently:

"It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us into trouble. It's the things we do know that ain't so."

Nancy said:

They may not be scholars but i bet their faith is way stronger than a Westerner's.

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As strong as the western church says it is, I fear if we had to go through what Chinese and Muslim christians go through every day if we would even make it, our culture has made us arrogant and weak I fear,

Eternally Grateful said:

As sting as the western church says it is, I fear if we had to go through what Chinese and Muslim christians go through every day if we wouLd even make it, our culture has made us arrogant and weak I fear,

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Agreed.

Rita said:

Ok, Nancy using the word Scholar resonated - what I thought your pastor was saying was ‘ The Chinese are not as good as us because they are uneducated ‘ ( hence my reaction yesterday ‘ )
However I think he was saying is ‘ The Chinese have not had the same opportunities as us ‘
Many apologies.....
Rita

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Lol Rita, not a problem!
xo

Prayer Warrior said:

Do you mean Brother Yun, who wrote The Heavenly Man? He has an incredible testimony. Every Christian should read this book telling how God is spreading the gospel in China.

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Yes, Prayer Warrior, thank you - hadn’t noticed the wrong spelling xxxxx
An amazing book xx

Jay Ross said:

Defined as: -

Christian people who do not know, that they do not know.​

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Interesting Jay, where do you think that this delusion stems from? Meaning, is your phrase stated more correctly as, 'Christian people who do not know, that they do not know, but think that they do? Or, is it more a novice naiveté, rather than an arrogant delusion?
God's Word has a lot of power, therefore, I find that many are eager to take hold of the gifts of the Spirit, and the blessedness that comes being under God's approbation, without effectively understanding it. They don't appreciate why certain benefits and graces are offered, and tend to exploit such principles without actually ever effectuating the true gifts. They believe that they both have and know, more than they do.
This type of self-righteousness, I find, is the source of ignorance. In other words, those who are more devout and reverent towards the majesty of God, hold themselves in not such a high esteem, and do not assume that every thought that crosses their minds is an enlightenment from God.
Thus, I would think that humility could circumvent such a misappropriated view of oneself.

Rita said:

‘ The heavenly man ‘ is a good read x ( although I read it some years ago now )
Not sure we did get it sorted- it perhaps would have helped if you had explained how I was misinterpreting the words, what perhaps you read in to the words I quoted. You heard the sermon , and quote , in context. You heard how the words were said ect
All I had was flat text, and no real context to go on...and , to me , it still reads the way I originally read it.
It just sounded like a bit of a put down , and that just made me feel sad because of what so many Chinese people go through.
Sadly with flat text people write one thing and it’s heard in an entirely different way by the reader.
I was too tired to explain last night
Rita

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My main point is that I'm tired of seeing Christians putting down other Christians. The title of this thread is "Christian Ignorance" and while the OP didn't put anyone down directly, where's this thought going to go? In a positive direction?

Since he commented on ignorance, I pointed out that it is not a character flaw. We are all ignorant at some time... That is, "without knowledge". It certainly doesn't make you a better or worse Christian.

Now the part that got you upset was when I mentioned that my Pastor was talking about Chinese Christians who are being persecuted. Paraphrasing, he said they may not be as far along [in truth or knowledge] as we are, or maybe they are, but they stood for what they knew. He also added (which I didn't mention) that we must not forget that. (meaning that there a Christian today still under heavy persecution... Something we in the west haven't had to deal with, at least not in this generation).

I don't understand why you'd be upset at that comment, but if you are, fine. Be upset... Because it's not something I should apologize for (and I am quick to apologize when I am wrong... It has happened before).

Now, while I am being asked to explain myself, let me ask you about something you said:

Rita said:

I would suspect they have more because they have to lean on The Holy Spirit,

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Oh really? How do you know that? Don't get me wrong, I think that the Holy Spirit is with them.... But are you saying I don't have to lean on the Spirit? Or my Church doesn't? How about you and your Church? Do y'all have to lean on the Spirit? And we don't? Why, that doesn't even sound like a back James compliment, does it? No... Not mad. Not offended. Just pointing it out.

Rita said:

Ok, Nancy using the word Scholar resonated - what I thought your pastor was saying was ‘ The Chinese are not as good as us because they are uneducated ‘ ( hence my reaction yesterday ‘ )

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Good heavens! No! That is the exact opposite of what he was saying! In fact, though he wishes it wasn't so (that they are being persecuted), he was giving them deserved honor. I AM NOT going to say that western Christians wouldn't stand up under the same circumstances... Some I think would. But no, we are not in that situation.

Rita said:

However I think he was saying is ‘ The Chinese have not had the same opportunities as us ‘
Many apologies.....

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That may be a bit closer. But he did say, "or maybe they do". So even that isn't an accurate statement. I told you what he said. There shouldn't be any reason to look for more. But I do accept your apology. I harbour no hard feelings and I hope I've better explained myself.

FHII said:

My main point is that I'm tired of seeing Christians putting down other Christians. The title of this thread is "Christian Ignorance" and while the OP didn't put anyone down directly, where's this thought going to go? In a positive direction?

Since he commented on ignorance, I pointed out that it is not a character flaw. We are all ignorant at some time... That is, "without knowledge". It certainly doesn't make you a better or worse
Now the part that got you upset was when I mentioned that my Pastor was talking about Chinese Christians who are being persecuted. Paraphrasing, he said they may not be as far along [in truth or knowledge] as we are, or maybe they are, but they stood for what they knew. He also added (which I didn't mention) that we must not forget that. (meaning that there a Christian today still under heavy persecution... Something we in the west haven't had to deal with, at least not in this generation).

I don't understand why you'd be upset at that comment, but if you are, fine. Be upset... Because it's not something I should apologize for (and I am quick to apologize when I am wrong... It has happened before).

Now, while I am being asked to explain myself, let me ask you about something you said:

Oh really? How do you know that? Don't get me wrong, I think that the Holy Spirit is with them.... But are you saying I don't have to lean on the Spirit? Or my Church doesn't? How about you and your Church? Do y'all have to lean on the Spirit? And we don't? Why, that doesn't even sound like a back James compliment, does it? No... Not mad. Not offended. Just pointing it out.

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No, that’s not what I am saying- they have very little of the written word in some places, especially those who are imprisoned for their faith.
Many have to really rely on the Holy Spirits guidance to know where they should go, how they can meet, and how they need to go about ‘ being Christians ‘ they are truly up against the authorities. Some of the testimonies that come out of China are amazing.
As many Christians in the western world don’t face the same circumstances, and are not persecuted in the same way , would you not agree that we can lean on people, churches, our comforts, ect. We still lean on the Holy Spirit, but we often don’t have to fight for our very existence as Christians at the moment. They are often solely reliant on the Holy Spirit.
As to the previous post, you have already pointed out my error, I could explain my reaction, but it’s pointless.
All of us misunderstand posts from time to time - it happens. You rightly challenged me, and challenged me again. Would you mind if I endeavoured to pick myself up before you find any more wrong. You just helped score a home run for the enemy. ( not accusing you of anything, or playing victim here, just asking for a bit of grace as my confidence is being attacked on many levels right now )
Also I wasn’t looking for an apology from you - I was in the wrong in my assumptions- I accepted that.
Rita

Candidus said:

Ignorance is Bliss! Knowing is not always comfortable!

The more someone knows, the more they see that there is so much more out there that they do not know!

When I lived in ignorance and bliss, I thought that I knew a lot!

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I know everything but the trouble is that no one is asking the questions. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

Jay Ross said:

Enoch111, this thread was not meant to be a means for people to attack other members on this forum.

Misdirection of others often comes from Christian people who do not know what they do not know. They believe that their understanding and wisdom is a guiding light for all other people whether or not what they believe is true or not.

I really like it when someone can bring correction to what I know about the scriptures. Sadly, many try to do so out of their ignorance, and not out of God's understanding.

A wise person will listen and learn from what others know to be true by confirming what it is that they have been told is true and in line with the source Biblical Texts.

Shalom

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I had an interesting reparte with someone who had made some mistakes in what he had said. I pointed out one or two things and he came back with some sort of retort like what makes you think you know more than I do.

I set out my degrees, people who I was tutored by and books I had read.

His reply was very sarcastic which said in as many words that learning was a waste of time and doesn't make you any more intelligent than he was.

Jay Ross said:

Defined as: -

Christian people who do not know, that they do not know.​

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I love the quote
"The more you know, the more you realise the less you know"

Scripture is so vast, it is probably impossible in a lifetime to work through all the issues or complexity.
I heard that the early church fathers left behind so much writing, there are simply not enough scholars to collate it all, let alone begin to understand the treasures held within.

Jesus gives us one great reality, the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
He provides enough to take the next step, and that is all we need for the next step, praise the Lord, Amen.

Jay Ross said:

Enoch111, this thread was not meant to be a means for people to attack other members on this forum.

Misdirection of others often comes from Christian people who do not know what they do not know. They believe that their understanding and wisdom is a guiding light for all other people whether or not what they believe is true or not.

I really like it when someone can bring correction to what I know about the scriptures. Sadly, many try to do so out of their ignorance, and not out of God's understanding.

A wise person will listen and learn from what others know to be true by confirming what it is that they have been told is true and in line with the source Biblical Texts.

Shalom

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"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,..." Rom 3:4

Paul quoted a psalmist recognizing that in spite of the Life which Jesus brought men were and are stiil are liars. When we believe we know, but are in error and share our erroneous beliefs with others, we are also liars, even if though our lies are unintentional.

Ignorance, from another angle, is not merely about 'knowing the Bible'. Ignorance can be about 'knowing oneself'. I have read comments on this site that reveal 'arrogance' and 'self-righteousness', but the sinner has no awareness of their arrogance. Therefore, that person continues to be arrogant without repenting. This is no different from a gay person who has not repented. I, personally, believe that we are all ignorant of God's will in one way or another. It may be wise to remind ourselves that, in some ways, we all misinterpret the Bible in some manner. There is no room for pride among believers of Jesus' Way.

I know so much, I am filled with so much knowledge it hurts, it is trapped deep inside my brain, and it refuses to come out.
The biggest lesson I learn is my worst enemy is myself. I awake each morning sure I know the focus I should have except it is the focus my pride and self security have chosen, and this certainly is not what I should be doing. That step which will change everything is the thing my mind will run away from, and hidden in the shadows is my true self.

I think I understand others, yet it is always the shadow I see in myself and not them, and I always get it so wrong.
But then if I learn this one phrase each day, to focus on it, and know its truth
"Be still and know that I am God"

It is trust and the next step, in Gods time. Abraham took till he was 90 to begin to see the promise fulfilled.
But we want it tomorrow. We want to win that next battle now, rather than just walk the next step in peace with Him.
When you step with the King nothing else actually matters. God bless you.

Angelina said:

I think the only thing I can do in regards to being an ignorant Christian is not to measure myself up against others.

I like this verse ~ 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody. 1 Thess 4

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I think that having the enlightenment of God's Word is what really counts as far as being ignorant is concerned, right?