the 4 horsemen--ancient or now?

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 24, 2020

Timtofly said:
I did not say your personal trinity. I pointed out a trinity for you to see. You seem not to include the Holy Spirit. God as Jesus was begotten. That means started out as a baby in the womb of a female human. You would have to deny that Jesus was in a womb for 9 months, to claim God was not begotten, or deny that Jesus was God. To deny either means God did not do a physical thing, but ignored the physical all together. Denying the physical takes more mind boggling twist, than to just say God can change and go through the human birth process. Nothing is impossible for God. To make it impossible for a human to comprehend seems a strange way to deny the natural process of childbirth.

I understand that you believe when the scriptures speak of God Only Begotten Son being begotten you believe it's speaking about Mary conceiving from God Holy Spirit and God Only Begotten Son came into existence at least this is what I think your saying, if not correct me. But if I'm hearing you right then I disagree with you. There's too many scriptures you're ignoring or not understanding them at all, I believe.

The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16,18; 1Jo 4:9) I don't believe this has nothing to do with his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence when he was a spiritual being in heaven with God his Father, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”—1Jo 4:9.

The Gospel account by John particularly emphasizes Jesus’ prehuman existence as “the Word” and explains that “the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father.” (Joh 1:1-3, 14) That his sonship did not begin with his human birth is seen from Jesus’ own statements, as when he said, “What things I have seen with my Father I speak” (Joh 8:38, 42; compare Joh 17:5, 24), as well as from other clear statements of his inspired apostles.—Ro 8:3; Ga 4:4; 1Jo 4:9-11, 14.

Timtofly · May 24, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
I understand that you believe when the scriptures speak of God Only Begotten Son being begotten you believe it's speaking about Mary conceiving from God Holy Spirit and God Only Begotten Son came into existence at least this is what I think your saying, if not correct me. But if I'm hearing you right then I disagree with you. There's too many scriptures you're ignoring or not understanding them at all, I believe.

The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16,18; 1Jo 4:9) I don't believe this has nothing to do with his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence when he was a spiritual being in heaven with God his Father, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”—1Jo 4:9.

The Gospel account by John particularly emphasizes Jesus’ prehuman existence as “the Word” and explains that “the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father.” (Joh 1:1-3, 14) That his sonship did not begin with his human birth is seen from Jesus’ own statements, as when he said, “What things I have seen with my Father I speak” (Joh 8:38, 42; compare Joh 17:5, 24), as well as from other clear statements of his inspired apostles.—Ro 8:3; Ga 4:4; 1Jo 4:9-11, 14.

All of your verses are in the NT. We agree on everything, even saying we are wrong (well in an agreeable way). All those verses were written about Jesus decades later, and were truth when Jesus was alive. In fact they believed He was God at first, and did not themselves fully understand the humanity of Jesus.

I understand fully your thinking, because you see those verses just as the disciples and apostles saw them.

Going beyond Jesus being God, Jesus was also fully human, and the humanity of Jesus was finite, in the human body. The argument may be made did Christ as God even die. Yes, but for one split second. In that minute period of time the veil of the temple was rent top to bottom, and death was defeated as a form of punishment and power over sinful men, who choose redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:55-57
55 “Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin; and sin draws its power from the Torah;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah!

In the OT there is not a Father Son relationship, because a physical, only begotten, birth had to take place in the fulness of time. The Plan of God was carried out to a specific detail and Will of God.

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
All of your verses are in the NT. We agree on everything, even saying we are wrong (well in an agreeable way). All those verses were written about Jesus decades later, and were truth when Jesus was alive. In fact they believed He was God at first, and did not themselves fully understand the humanity of Jesus.

I understand fully your thinking, because you see those verses just as the disciples and apostles saw them.

Going beyond Jesus being God, Jesus was also fully human, and the humanity of Jesus was finite, in the human body. The argument may be made did Christ as God even die. Yes, but for one split second. In that minute period of time the veil of the temple was rent top to bottom, and death was defeated as a form of punishment and power over sinful men, who choose redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:55-57
55 “Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin; and sin draws its power from the Torah;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah!

In the OT there is not a Father Son relationship, because a physical, only begotten, birth had to take place in the fulness of time. The Plan of God was carried out to a specific detail and Will of God.

Yes I understood what you said you believe. You are very clear of what you believe. I just honestly believe the scriptures are saying something different than what you're explaining to me of what you believe the scriptures are saying to you.
You and I believe completely different concerning the scriptures. Those scriptures you're talking about they are inspired by God, there not men's thought of what they think the truth is. For instance, when Jesus said: John 8:38- I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.”
John 8: 42- Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me.
John 17:5- so now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
These scriptures are very accurate. Jesus was not in any way not speaking the truth. When Jesus says that he had a glory alongside his Father before the world was, that's the truth, as far as I'm concerned.
Someone else wants to believe differently, that's their choice. These scriptures are showing me that Jesus, although the Only Begotten Son didn't go by that name until he was human, existed in heaven with his Father, before he was human. Let me make my point very clear, Jesus wasn't saying he was God, because God is his Father and Jesus was saying he was alongside his Father, before the world was. That tells me that the Only Begotten Son existed in heaven with his Father before he became human, other people want to believe differently, that's their choice. Just understand, I believe that when Jesus said those things he wasn't inaccurate in anything he said.

Timtofly · May 25, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Yes I understood what you said you believe. You are very clear of what you believe. I just honestly believe the scriptures are saying something different than what you're explaining to me of what you believe the scriptures are saying to you.
You and I believe completely different concerning the scriptures. Those scriptures you're talking about they are inspired by God, there not men's thought of what they think the truth is. For instance, when Jesus said: John 8:38- I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.”
John 8: 42- Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me.
John 17:5- so now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
These scriptures are very accurate. Jesus was not in any way not speaking the truth. When Jesus says that he had a glory alongside his Father before the world was, that's the truth, as far as I'm concerned.
Someone else wants to believe differently, that's their choice. These scriptures are showing me that Jesus, although the Only Begotten Son didn't go by that name until he was human, existed in heaven with his Father, before he was human. Let me make my point very clear, Jesus wasn't saying he was God, because God is his Father and Jesus was saying he was alongside his Father, before the world was. That tells me that the Only Begotten Son existed in heaven with his Father before he became human, other people want to believe differently, that's their choice. Just understand, I believe that when Jesus said those things he wasn't inaccurate in anything he said.

Jesus is just a name. It is not a form.

The form was the Word. Yes the form was with God, but God, who was not as Father in name. I think the name would be either Jehovah or Lord.

Jesus' form since the foundation of the world, was a Lamb in name. This form had the nail prints and the sword hole in the side. It cannot be a pre-Jesus, but a post Jesus with those scars in the body. This man meeting with Abraham would have shown Abraham what would happen on a cross. Moses just did not disclose those details. The house of Jacob will not understand until the Messiah returns and they ask, "who gave you these nail prints?"

Not that Jews cannot understand and be saved into the body of Christ. I am talking about those who have kept the OT traditions from generation to generation.

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
Jesus is just a name. It is not a form.

The form was the Word. Yes the form was with God, but God, who was not as Father in name. I think the name would be either Jehovah or Lord.

Jesus' form since the foundation of the world, was a Lamb in name. This form had the nail prints and the sword hole in the side. It cannot be a pre-Jesus, but a post Jesus with those scars in the body. This man meeting with Abraham would have shown Abraham what would happen on a cross. Moses just did not disclose those details. The house of Jacob will not understand until the Messiah returns and they ask, "who gave you these nail prints?"

Not that Jews cannot understand and be saved into the body of Christ. I am talking about those who have kept the OT traditions from generation to generation.

If you and others want to ignore the scriptures I quoted that's your choice, but those scriptures show that the person who we know as Jesus Christ who is the Only Begotten Son of God, existed in heaven with his Father who is God who's name is Jehovah before he became human. I'm not going to ignore that. Such scriptures stated by Jesus Christ are not inaccurate and certainly not lies. They explicitly prove The Only Begotten Son existed in heaven with Jehovah God his Father before becoming human and so the phrase, "Only Begotten Son of God," has nothing to do with him being human since the Only Begotten Son of God was in heaven with God before becoming human.

Timtofly · May 25, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
If you and others want to ignore the scriptures I quoted that's your choice, but those scriptures show that the person who we know as Jesus Christ who is the Only Begotten Son of God, existed in heaven with his Father who is God who's name is Jehovah before he became human. I'm not going to ignore that. Such scriptures stated by Jesus Christ are not inaccurate and certainly not lies. They explicitly prove The Only Begotten Son existed in heaven with Jehovah God his Father before becoming human and so the phrase, "Only Begotten Son of God," has nothing to do with him being human since the Only Begotten Son of God was in heaven with God before becoming human.

I would agree, except for the fact begotten is a birth process. Giving birth in heaven is polytheism, but that is your choice of trinity, not what the Bible states.

There are three persons with different names, not forms. Multiple forms would be more that 3 persons. 3 persons with multiple names (titles if that makes sense) would not. Only the fully human Jesus as the fully God person was born in the womb of Mary. This was not a spiritual heaven incident. It was an earth event around 4BC.

All Scripture still applies. None of them are ignored.

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 25, 2020

The scriptures don't speak of a Trinity doctrine, I certainly don't believe in one.

Also, if you and others believe titles to be names doesn't that explain to you that people think too much on titles and not enough on personal names. Isn't that how God true pronunciation of his personal name YHWH got lost in the first place, because men think too much of what they think the scriptures should say, and not enough of the fact that God is the one who put his name in the scriptures to begin with and that should have been more important to them.
The greatest indignity that modern translators render to the Divine Author of the Holy Scriptures is the removal or the concealing of his peculiar personal name. This name occurs in the Hebrew text 6,828 times as YHWH or JHVH. Instead they practice substituting titles such as “Lord,” “the Lord,” “Adonai” or “God” for the divine name.

When speaking of the Trinity people say they believe in. I have found there are only two personal names I have found in the scriptures, "Jehovah," who is the Father and God of his Only Begotten Son, and "Jesus," who is The Only Begotten Son of Jehovah God. I have found no third personal name in the scriptures. In fact in the scriptures you see no form of the Holy Spirit in the form of a person. When someone sees a vision they may see God Standing, with his Son standing on his right hand side or they see God sitting on a throne, with his Son sitting on a throne on God right. You never see a third person.
Maybe you like others, when the scriptures show us things like, " that the Only Begotten Son of God was in heaven before he became human," that, "the scriptures never shows us three persons , not even in a vision," that, "the Holy Spirit isn't given a personal name when God and his Only Begotten Son are." I'm not going to ignore such things just because of somebody's interpretation of the scriptures or what one believes concerning the scriptures when I can see for myself that what they believe or how they interpret the scriptures does ignore these scriptures. There's too much that people are not considering when it comes to what they speak of concerning what they say the Trinity is and they actually just want me to blindly believe, even though the scriptures speak out against believing anything blindly. When the scriptures tell me that Jesus himself says he was in heaven before he became human, that's what I'm going to believe. People can think or say anything they want about that but I will continue to believe that.

Polytheism is the worship of more than one God. I've said nowhere in any of my postings that worship is to be given to the Only Begotten Son of God Jesus Christ. The only one who is to be worshipped is Jehovah God.

Timtofly · May 25, 2020

Humans also do not have a spirit. If you claim you have a spirit and the Holy Spirit is not a person, it seems somewhat disingenuous.

The Holy Spirit is not named because we our selves are spiritually dead, with no access to our spirit. It is not part of our person.

Names and titles are not, nor ever were important. God places all importance on the work of the Holy Spirit and especially, in the last 2000 years. We would not have the books of the Bible past the Torah, if it were not for the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and the Word go hand in hand throughout history. The most important persons in the trinity helping us in our condition. They do the Will of God on the throne, because in our condition, God on the throne, can only produce terror and the will to die. Our spirit is quite comfortable in the presence of God. That is why we were created in the image of God with a spirit of our own. Now if our soul becomes reprobate on earth, the spirit cannot stand God and a demon is formed, fleeing from the presence of God, it becomes lost seeking out any human mind to posses and take over.

I think that part of the reason we as fallen humans do not see a trinity is because we only have a body and soul, and are spiritually dead. We try to compensate with millions of bizarre explanations.

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
The Holy Spirit is not named because we our selves are spiritually dead, with no access to our spirit. It is not part of our person.[/Quote\]

I do agree that we don't have some spiritual intelligent person inside us that separates at death, but the scriptures don't hint at anything you stated here concerning the Holy Spirit.
If you reason that The Holy Spirit isn't given a personal name because we are spiritually dead and so we don't have access to our spirit, you're going to have to show the scriptures that prove what you say. Because as bizarre explanations go this is way out there. God's personal name Jehovah(YHWH) wasn't and isn't unimportant to God as you suggest. Jehovah God wanted his name Jehovah(YHWH) to be known all over the world throughout all the nation's. Jehovah wanted every nation to know that he who's name is Jehovah(YHWH) is The Only True God. It seems to me from the scriptures that Jehovah God thought his name to be very important.

Timtofly · May 26, 2020

Explain what unconsciousness is and why we have it. Is there a verse on unconsciousness? Genesis clearly states we were in the image of God. God who is a bright light. A spirit. Are we today, a bright light and a spirit? Why do we get glorified bodies that are bright lights as the sun in the future? God gave the sons of God full access to all consciousness. We are lacking that spiritual part of us today. That is why we need the Holy Spirit in us. That person is the part we are lacking. That person is our conscious connection to God. Show me one verse that says our spirit is dead. Because that would be your proof against mine. Mine being death is just separation from our spirit. Even in Paradise, the soul is still separated from the spirit, because that is still the glorified body part. Revelation 6 has the symbol of white robes. The reunion with our spirit is the putting on the "white robes".

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
Explain what unconsciousness is and why we have it. Is there a verse on unconsciousness? Genesis clearly states we were in the image of God. God who is a bright light. A spirit. Are we today, a bright light and a spirit? Why do we get glorified bodies that are bright lights as the sun in the future? God gave the sons of God full access to all consciousness. We are lacking that spiritual part of us today. That is why we need the Holy Spirit in us. That person is the part we are lacking. That person is our conscious connection to God. Show me one verse that says our spirit is dead. Because that would be your proof against mine. Mine being death is just separation from our spirit. Even in Paradise, the soul is still separated from the spirit, because that is still the glorified body part. Revelation 6 has the symbol of white robes. The reunion with our spirit is the putting on the "white robes".

The only thing you've said to me so far concerning we're separated from our spirit is your belief of that. You haven't showned me any scriptures that say that.
The glorified bodies that people get because they exercise faith in God through his Only Begotten Son Jesus are the ones who get a resurrection like Jesus who when resurrected was given immortality and inherited incorruption. Those from humanity who are resurrected to heaven and receive immortality and inherited incorruption like Jesus, will get glorified bodies yes. The mistake you're making in your reasoning however is that not all righteous mankind will be resurrected into heaven. The majority of righteous mankind will be resurrected back on earth during the thousand year reign. Those humans will not have glorified bodies like those who were resurrected to heaven. These who are resurrected back on paradise earth during the thousand year reign of Jesus will not receive immortality or inherit incorruption. They will however receive eternal life because of their faithful lives to The True God Jehovah and his Christ who is his Only Begotten Son Jesus.

The image that The True God Jehovah created us in has to do with attributes such as, love, justice, power and wisdom. That is God's image so that is our image.

Timtofly · May 26, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
The only thing you've said to me so far concerning we're separated from our spirit is your belief of that. You haven't showned me any scriptures that say that.
The glorified bodies that people get because they exercise faith in God through his Only Begotten Son Jesus are the ones who get a resurrection like Jesus who when resurrected was given immortality and inherited incorruption. Those from humanity who are resurrected to heaven and receive immortality and inherited incorruption like Jesus, will get glorified bodies yes. The mistake you're making in your reasoning however is that not all righteous mankind will be resurrected into heaven. The majority of righteous mankind will be resurrected back on earth during the thousand year reign. Those humans will not have glorified bodies like those who were resurrected to heaven. These who are resurrected back on paradise earth during the thousand year reign of Jesus will not receive immortality or inherit incorruption. They will however receive eternal life because of their faithful lives to The True God Jehovah and his Christ who is his Only Begotten Son Jesus.

The image that The True God Jehovah created us in has to do with attributes such as, love, justice, power and wisdom. That is God's image so that is our image.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is “sown,” it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay.
43 When sown, it is without dignity; when raised, it will be beautiful. When sown, it is weak; when raised, it will be strong.
44 When sown, it is an ordinary human body; when raised, it will be a body controlled by the Spirit. If there is an ordinary human body, there is also a body controlled by the Spirit.
This is the church resurrection of Revelation 6:9-14.

The first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 is not the one in chapter 6.

4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.
And verse 6 says that the second death has no power over them. They will receive glorified bodies, because they cannot die in the second death. Blessed and holy, and death having no power over them, is the truth of Scripture.

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is “sown,” it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay.
43 When sown, it is without dignity; when raised, it will be beautiful. When sown, it is weak; when raised, it will be strong.
44 When sown, it is an ordinary human body; when raised, it will be a body controlled by the Spirit. If there is an ordinary human body, there is also a body controlled by the Spirit.
This is the church resurrection of Revelation 6:9-14.

The first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 is not the one in chapter 6.

4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.
And verse 6 says that the second death has no power over them. They will receive glorified bodies, because they cannot die in the second death. Blessed and holy, and death having no power over them, is the truth of Scripture.

I told you in my previous post the scriptures such as these are speaking of those that are getting a resurrection like Jesus, which means just as Jesus was given immortality and inherited incorruption so do these righteous humans receive immortality and inherit incorruption being changed from humans to very powerful spiritual creatures, like Angels when they are resurrected from the dead. These are very few righteous humans that get the same resurrection like Jesus in comparison to the majority of righteous humans that will be resurrected as humans on planet Earth. These righteous human don't receive immortality or inherit incorruption. So these scriptures are say nothing about what you were posting me about humans being united back with their spirits.

Timtofly · May 26, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
I told you in my previous post the scriptures such as these are speaking of those that are getting a resurrection like Jesus, which means just as Jesus was given immortality and inherited incorruption so do these righteous humans receive immortality and inherit incorruption being changed from humans to very powerful spiritual creatures, like Angels when they are resurrected from the dead. These are very few righteous humans that get the same resurrection like Jesus in comparison to the majority of righteous humans that will be resurrected as humans on planet Earth. These righteous human don't receive immortality or inherit incorruption. So these scriptures are say nothing about what you were posting me about humans being united back with their spirits.

Since you have not posted any resurrection verses, we can safely assume these two passages are the only Resurrection. There is no other resurrection where humans gain the original image that was lost to Adam when Adam disobeyed God.

If you do not think the Bible says anything otherwise, does a Resurrection even exist? Those two passages do restore humanity, at least those who are resurrected, to a pre-fallen condition. Otherwise all those not resurrected never will be restored.

michaelvpardo · Jun 4, 2020

Randy Kluth said:
The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse sort of launch the judgment of God against the world in preparation for the Kingdom of Christ. But no real time frame is given. We know that the endtimes, in a sense, began after Jesus' died on the cross, and judgment against mankind became sort of "last chance."

But the endtimes is also our day, what we might call "the last of the last days." It is the time immediately preceding the return of Christ. So my question is, and I sincerely ask it, do the 4 horsemen, or even more broadly, the 7 seals, represent something that began in ancient history, in the time of Christ's apostles, or does this actually refer to our day?

I think the backdrop was actually from Dan 7, where the Roman Empire presented the last obstacle to the coming of Christ's Kingdom. But that Kingdom would sort of hold the world in place until it finally breaks up into 10 states, and then is reconsolidated under Antichrist.

The 4 horsemen may have begun to show cracks in the Roman Empire, because after war and varied disasters ripped into that area, the city of Rome fell to barbarians in 476 AD.

But in these last days the old Roman Empire exists in these 10 plus states, although yet to be consolidated under Antichrist. Perhaps these 4 horsemen come to make cracks in this edifice today, which is the European Union? Is war and natural disasters starting to whittle away the unity and continuity of this heir to the old Roman system?

I don't know. But I do think John was given to refrain from mentioning the Roman tradition specifically because it would've been looked on as sedition, or rebellion. In a number of places in NT Scriptures Rome is treated gently, with an eye to preserving social order and a good Christian witness. But Christians also knew how corrupt Rome was, and wanted to be careful to not "become them" in trying to "win them!"

Let me know your opinion on this?

I don't think the horsemen were limited to the events described in the book of the revelation. There is another passage in chapter 1 of Zechariah that mentions 1 horseman and 3 horses "that were sent to walk to and fro throughout the Earth." Zechariah's prophecies seem to relate heavily to the church age, but there is nothing specifically said that indicates these are of the same mentioned in the book of the revelation.

Randy Kluth · Jun 4, 2020

michaelvpardo said:
I don't think the horsemen were limited to the events described in the book of the revelation. There is another passage in chapter 1 of Zechariah that mentions 1 horseman and 3 horses "that were sent to walk to and fro throughout the Earth." Zechariah's prophecies seem to relate heavily to the church age, but there is nothing specifically said that indicates these are of the same mentioned in the book of the revelation.

My view of the horses of Zech 1 is that they represented military forces that brought order in Zechariah's time. In the same way, the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse are bringing ultimate order by disassembling the pagan world in preparation for the Kingdom of God.

How will this happen? I think the old Roman system is keeping some form of post-Christian order in Europe. But in order to prevent it from becoming a Tower of Babel, forces within it and outside of it continually inflict divine judgment upon it, until Antichrist come and is ultimately judged at the Coming of Christ.

Keraz · Jun 7, 2020

There should be no doubt that the four horsemen of Revelation 6:1-8, Zechariah 1:6-11 and 6;1-8, are the same.
They represent the all the disasters that have befallen mankind, esp since Jesus Ascended to heaven. If those wars, famines and plagues has been any worse, mankind would have died out.
But the proof of their being open, is the Fifth Seal, Revelation 6:9-11, where we are told how the souls of the Christian martyrs are kept under the Altar in heaven.
We await the soon to happen Sixth Seal, that will commence all the prophesied things leading up to the Return of Jesus.

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

Randy Kluth said:
The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse sort of launch the judgment of God against the world in preparation for the Kingdom of Christ. But no real time frame is given. We know that the endtimes, in a sense, began after Jesus' died on the cross, and judgment against mankind became sort of "last chance."

....

Let me know your opinion on this?

1. Our Lord Jesus was giving the main Signs of the very end in His Olivet discourse, which parallels the Seals of Rev.6. So truly, the Seals are for the very end, and not back in Roman history. The order of the Seals in Rev.6 follows the Signs He gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13. The first Seal doesn't actually say 'first', it is just assumed. It's about a fake Christ coming on a white horse (the Antichrist at the end). That Sign is given first in Rev.6 because it is the first Sign of the end Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 to not allow any man to deceive us. But that Seal doesn't actually happen until later into the Signs, when the false Messiah (Antichrist) shows up for the tribulation.

2. The final beast kingdom will be world-wide, the EU just a little player among the whole. Rev.13 reveals the "dragon" will have power for 42 months over ALL nations and peoples. The Daniel 2 prophecy for the end shows this also. In Daniel 2 we are shown 5 beasts involving the statue image in Neb's dream, not just 4. The final one is the feet of part iron mixed with part clay which when the symbolic "stone" (Christ) comes to smite it upon its feet, the whole statue with all of its 5 pieces, together, come falling down. That is about Christ's ending of the coming one-world beast kingdom on the last day of this world.

3. Because the 5 pieces of the Dan.2 statue image falls 'together' at Christ's 2nd coming, that means all... of those previous beast kingdoms represented by those 5 pieces will be established together for the end. It doesn't have to mean a literal revival of all the previous beast kingdom elements, but simply points to a one-world beast kingdom over it all.

4. Jerusalem is going to be the final one-world beast kingdom ruling city for the end. The false one (little horn) in Daniel represents the beast king alluded to in Rev.17 for the end, which will be the Antichrist that's coming. Linked to that false one is the placing of the abomination idol in a temple in Jerusalem per the Book of Daniel, and per Christ's reference from Daniel in His Olivet discourse.

5. The ten nations idea is a design to get you off track of what the "ten horns" actually are about. Per Rev.17, the ten horns represent "ten kings" that only come to power at the end for "one hour" with the beast king (Antichrist). Those are the same ten horns idea in the Book of Daniel, the little horn representing the beast king alluded to in that same Rev.17 chapter.

6. Per the explanation in Dan.7:24, the little horn will subdue 3 of the ten kings. It does not say kill, but subdue, which means to abase, humble, not destroy. I believe this will be the ruling structure of the Antichrist at the end, like a pyramid, the Antichrist beast king at the top, the three subdued kings under him, and the seven kings under the three.

a. beast king - Antichrist - false Messiah.
b. 3 kings - over 3 world Unions (the EU is only one in the Tri-lateral Commission's plan. At present they are working on the American Union, and a Pacific-Asia Union).
c. 7 kings - over the earth divided into seven continents.

Randy Kluth · Jun 8, 2020

Davy said:
1. Our Lord Jesus was giving the main Signs of the very end in His Olivet discourse, which parallels the Seals of Rev.6. So truly, the Seals are for the very end, and not back in Roman history. The order of the Seals in Rev.6 follows the Signs He gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13. The first Seal doesn't actually say 'first', it is just assumed. It's about a fake Christ coming on a white horse (the Antichrist at the end). That Sign is given first in Rev.6 because it is the first Sign of the end Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 to not allow any man to deceive us. But that Seal doesn't actually happen until later into the Signs, when the false Messiah (Antichrist) shows up for the tribulation.

2. The final beast kingdom will be world-wide, the EU just a little player among the whole. Rev.13 reveals the "dragon" will have power for 42 months over ALL nations and peoples. The Daniel 2 prophecy for the end shows this also. In Daniel 2 we are shown 5 beasts involving the statue image in Neb's dream, not just 4. The final one is the feet of part iron mixed with part clay which when the symbolic "stone" (Christ) comes to smite it upon its feet, the whole statue with all of its 5 pieces, together, come falling down. That is about Christ's ending of the coming one-world beast kingdom on the last day of this world.

3. Because the 5 pieces of the Dan.2 statue image falls 'together' at Christ's 2nd coming, that means all... of those previous beast kingdoms represented by those 5 pieces will be established together for the end. It doesn't have to mean a literal revival of all the previous beast kingdom elements, but simply points to a one-world beast kingdom over it all.

4. Jerusalem is going to be the final one-world beast kingdom ruling city for the end. The false one (little horn) in Daniel represents the beast king alluded to in Rev.17 for the end, which will be the Antichrist that's coming. Linked to that false one is the placing of the abomination idol in a temple in Jerusalem per the Book of Daniel, and per Christ's reference from Daniel in His Olivet discourse.

5. The ten nations idea is a design to get you off track of what the "ten horns" actually are about. Per Rev.17, the ten horns represent "ten kings" that only come to power at the end for "one hour" with the beast king (Antichrist). Those are the same ten horns idea in the Book of Daniel, the little horn representing the beast king alluded to in that same Rev.17 chapter.

6. Per the explanation in Dan.7:24, the little horn will subdue 3 of the ten kings. It does not say kill, but subdue, which means to abase, humble, not destroy. I believe this will be the ruling structure of the Antichrist at the end, like a pyramid, the Antichrist beast king at the top, the three subdued kings under him, and the seven kings under the three.

a. beast king - Antichrist - false Messiah.
b. 3 kings - over 3 world Unions (the EU is only one in the Tri-lateral Commission's plan. At present they are working on the American Union, and a Pacific-Asia Union).
c. 7 kings - over the earth divided into seven continents.

Yea, it's one way of looking at it. My views are different on so many points, I won't take the time to deal with them all. I agree that this will certainly be focused on the endtimes and the Antichrist, with the whole world somehow involved. I just happen to think the main focus of Antichrist's empire will be in Europe. But we're just not there yet. We'll see.

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

Randy Kluth said:
Yea, it's one way of looking at it. My views are different on so many points, I won't take the time to deal with them all. I agree that this will certainly be focused on the endtimes and the Antichrist, with the whole world somehow involved. I just happen to think the main focus of Antichrist's empire will be in Europe. But we're just not there yet. We'll see.

Might want to look at Golitsyn's New Lies For Old (1984). He was an ex-KGB colonel that defected to the U.S. in the early 1960s. He revealed the Soviet's long range strategy against the West, and predicted in the 3rd final phase, the Russians would allow the Berlin Wall to come down. He said the Soviet goal was a one socialist Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals. That's their ultimate plan for the EU.

See articles by journalist Jerome Corsi who discovered hidden operations in the U.S. government with staffed departments working towards an American version of the EU. He said the new currency, the Amero, was already in the works too.

See writings of the Tri-lateral Commission, a globalist think tank started by Rockefeller, and first staffed with Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski.

the 4 horsemen--ancient or now?

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