Death penalty.

kcnalp said:

The court system is totally corrupt.

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CLARIFICATION: Our SOCIETY is totally corrupt, -- which includes the so called "Justice" Department and every other aspect of society.

Perhaps we're some two years into the 42 month Tribulation. (That's a statement, not a question.)
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo said:

CLARIFICATION: Our SOCIETY is totally corrupt, -- which includes the so called "Justice" Department and every other aspect of society.

Perhaps we're some two years into the 42 month Tribulation. (That's a statement, not a question.)
Bobby Jo

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I don't think we are quite there yet.

Matthew 24:21
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Well, what about war, when someone takes a life - is that playing God ?
Birth control, is that playing God?
When you preserve life through medical intervention - is that playing God ?
When you withdraw medication which leads to death- is that playing God ?
The OT is full of judgments which affected life, and many of the instructions were given to Gods people to carry out.
Rita

Rita said:

Well, what about war, when someone takes a life - is that playing God ?

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Yes

Birth control, is that playing God?

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Absolutely!

When you preserve life through medical intervention - is that playing God ?

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I don't think that's the same at all.

When you withdraw medication which leads to death- is that playing God ?

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Maybe.

The OT is full of judgments which affected life, and many of the instructions were given to Gods people to carry out.
Rita

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Israel was guided by prophets and God Himself. We have a new set of rules called the New Covenant. Christians in the NT were persecuted to death and no Christian killed anyone!

kcnalp said:

I don't think we are quite there yet. ...

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Think/guess/suppose/imagine, pick whichever word you like. But consider FACT.

Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo said:

Think/guess/suppose/imagine, pick whichever word you like. But consider FACT.

Bobby Jo

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This is FACT, for Christians.

Matthew 24:21
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Josho said:

Should there be a death penalty Yes or No?

As a son of a someone who used to work as a prison chaplain, I don't agree with the death penalty. I believe they too are human beings, they too can be saved, some are genuinely repentant in countries that still have the death penalty, and they are still put to death, the Bali 9 in Indonesia was a good example, Andrew Chan was a genuinely changed man, repentant, he turned to Jesus and deserved a second chance. But even though he significantly changed and was helping other prisoners, he still got put to death.

Found this arcticle.

https://www.christiantoday.com/arti....work.on.the.cross.shane.claiborne/134887.htm

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I heard a cassette tape once by David Wilkerson where he said ..." I'd like to get them saved in the church assembly then take them out the back and shoot them, so they can go straight to heaven rather than repeating their crime on humanity " He said more than that...but that is the gist of it.

Helen said:

I heard a cassette tape once by David Wilkerson where he said ..." I'd like to get them saved in the church assembly then take them out the back and shoot them, so they can go straight to heaven rather than repeating their crime on humanity " He said more than that...but that is the gist of it.

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I saw David in person in Alexandria, Indiana back in 78 where I lived at the time. I don't really know much about him tho.

Cristo Rei said:

My answer to the alternative would be incarceration.
I have a more detailed explanation in posts #35 and #36. Have a read of them and let me know what u think...

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We seem to be talking past each other a bit and for good reason. Each of us approached the question from a different perspective and I think we are both right.

I was answering the question, "should the death penalty ever exist?" and in order to answer that question, I went to the scriptures. You seem to be answering the question, "should the death penalty exist in a system run by corrupt people?" I like your answer and I agree with it. The Bible assumes that the police, the lawyers and the judges are righteous, upright, honest, ministers of God, as Paul calls them, and serving his interests. If that is NOT the case, then such a system and the country that harbors that system should not even exist let alone practice law.

This is why I became very afraid during the Obama Administration, seeing that our justice system was so corrupt. I feared that God would bring about swift judgment against our nation. And we deserved his judgment. I was happy he didn't. And I pray we can fix our justice system soon.

The Bible clearly tells us that God sent evil people to punish other EVIL people.

MattMooradian said:

Jesus did not support the death penalty ...

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Jesus didn't demand that the two criminals next to HIM be released. Therefore, we can conclude that HE was consenting to their deaths to the point of assuring Heaven for one of them.

But I guess Facts don't supersede your emotions.
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo said:

Jesus didn't demand that the two criminals next to HIM be released. Therefore, we can conclude that HE was consenting to their deaths to the point of assuring Heaven for one of them.

But I guess Facts don't supersede your emotions.
Bobby Jo

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So you think sinners should be executed before they can repent and be saved???

Bobby Jo said:

NO! I think that all thieves, rapists, and murderers should be released back into society so they can find a church and get "saved".

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Why would you think that? lol

Perhaps you'll host them in your family home while you "witness" to them. Give me your address, and I'll send a few.
Bobby Jo

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Why not just keep them locked up? Do you really want to kill them?

Bobby Jo said:

Inmates MURDER EACH OTHER, so I don't even want criminals locked up. They should be allowed to reside with you and your family to get "saved". So give me your address and you'll be doing a Great Service for GOD.

ADDRESS?

Bobby Jo

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Actually I would rather be murdered and be saved than to kill someone and send him to Hell fire.

Bobby Jo said:

... and you wife feels the same way? And any children, grandchildren, other family members, guests?

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Doesn't your God answer prayer? Mine does.

Besides, who says YOU'LL send them to "hell fire". Isn't that THEIR DECISION? And if you can't keep yourself from sin, what makes you think you can keep someone else from sin?

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If you kill an unsaved person YOU are sending them to Hell, and taking away their chance to be saved.

Are you REALLY GOD?!?

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No, I'm not God. lol

And where's your ADDRESS that I asked for? I'll GLADLY send them your way, -- unless you LIED about wanting to "save" them.
Bobby Jo

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How long have you been filled with HATRED?

What I find interesting is that we struggle with a concept that God commanded in the bible (capital punishment), but have no problems with removing people completely from society in prison - which as far as I understand God never commanded (although plenty of non-godly cultures had prison). If someone can show me where God commanded prison I'd be interested.

(Sanctuary cities I don't see as prison - as the person could still interact with the rest of society).

I'm not advocating for no prisons - just struggling to reconcile my views with God's, whilst finding it interesting that talks about capital punishment being biblical come up so often - but talks about the way we incarcerate people comes up rarely.

And from a Christian view as though we're doing them a favour giving them more time to repent. I'm reminded of that saying "There's no atheists in foxholes". Facing impending death can be a huge wake up call for the unsaved. Plus - repenting saves us from eternal damnation - it doesn't release us from the punishment that is due for our crimes here on earth, and I can't help but wonder if giving them more time can actually do the opposite of what we're wishing to achieve.

My personal suspicions are that if less people were incarcerated for lesser offenses - and rather given the cane - we may have a turn around in the number of smaller crimes (which many ends up leading to larger ones) - and that is a debate I'd love to see brought up more in public than ones over the death penalty.

Bobby Jo said:

Some people get a trial, but NOT GUILTY doesn't mean that O.J. didn't murder his wife and another young man; and yet others never see justice like George Floyd, or Hillary Clinton. And so we must go with enough wisdom to see beyond the excuses to perceive the society we live in.

Bobby Jo

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Hi Bobby Jo - I agree that not guilty doesn't mean they're not guilty - and I'm not sure how you read that I was saying that in my former post, but I'm sorry for not phrasing my explanation more clearly. (Sometimes I wish we spoke Greek instead of English - it's a more clearer language).

My point was about jumping to conclusions on a matter before gathering all the information. (And by making it emotional).

Josho said:

Should there be a death penalty Yes or No?

As a son of a someone who used to work as a prison chaplain, I don't agree with the death penalty. I believe they too are human beings, they too can be saved, some are genuinely repentant in countries that still have the death penalty, and they are still put to death, the Bali 9 in Indonesia was a good example, Andrew Chan was a genuinely changed man, repentant, he turned to Jesus and deserved a second chance. But even though he significantly changed and was helping other prisoners, he still got put to death.

Found this arcticle.

Death penalty undermines Jesus' redemptive work on the cross - Shane Claiborne

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This appears to be a universal law, qualified on a fundamental level by God.

Genesis 9:5-6
9:5. "Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man. 6. "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Plus, there were about 20 Capital Crimes in the Levitical Law.

But, on the other hand, Moses was a murderer (Egyptian attacking fellow Israelite), as was King David (Urriah), as was Paul (at least complicit by association). Plus, David should've been killed for adultery, and Solomon for Idolatry, and Tamar, the ancestor of Jesus, for sleeping with Judah, here father in law. (Leviticus 20:12)

I would think that since certain saved men throughout history, have committed capital crimes and either became saved, or remained saved, I like the principle of the 'prodigal son' . The angels in heaven rejoice when a sinner is saved. I don't mean turn the other cheek in the case of violent crimes, rather keep them incarcerated. But, the thought of the God winning souls to his side, and the devil losing them from his side, is an attractive, and possibly viable proposition?

Josho said:

Should there be a death penalty Yes or No?

As a son of a someone who used to work as a prison chaplain, I don't agree with the death penalty. I believe they too are human beings, they too can be saved, some are genuinely repentant in countries that still have the death penalty, and they are still put to death, the Bali 9 in Indonesia was a good example, Andrew Chan was a genuinely changed man, repentant, he turned to Jesus and deserved a second chance. But even though he significantly changed and was helping other prisoners, he still got put to death.

Found this arcticle.

https://www.christiantoday.com/arti....work.on.the.cross.shane.claiborne/134887.htm

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The problem is the Law of God.

Sin is governed by it, and all gentiles are inherently and unwittingly using it to exercise judgement for God.

God uses wars and the prison system this way also, to keep morality relevant for mankind, whether they believe in God or not.

Romans 2 explains this phenomenon....

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...


No written Law to read, but the Law is written in their minds.

Scoot said:

...My point was about jumping to conclusions on a matter before gathering all the information. (And by making it emotional).

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Hi Scoot,

And my point was that we don't need Police, Forensic, and Pathology Evidence to see a Judicial miscarriage.

Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo said:

Hi Scoot,

And my point was that we don't need Police, Forensic, and Pathology Evidence to see a Judicial miscarriage.

Bobby Jo

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I'm confused. I'm guessing I'm wrong - but it sounds as though your in favour of judging people as a murderer without investigating all evidence first?