Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Well wishes are not biblical doctrine! To say I wish you prosperity and health is a timeless blessing we give to friends. It does not convey the Faith Doctrine. That's silly!
Above ""ALL""!!
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Well wishes are not biblical doctrine! To say I wish you prosperity and health is a timeless blessing we give to friends. It does not convey the Faith Doctrine. That's silly!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Jesus said this:
Matt 26.39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
We may hope the best for ourselves and for others, and it is a noble attitude. However, what we end up with depends on the will of God. Saying you hope the best for somebody in no way guarantees everything will be well always, and it certainly is not biblical doctrine to guarantee our health and prosperity.
Heb 11.13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth...
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Faith and Prosperity Doctrine insults these people, who have nobly suffered for the Kingdom of God. Yes, we wish the best for them in life, knowing that at times they can be prospered and healed and blessed. But at times they will also suffer, as even the word of God says in the Scriptures.
To deny these things is to be unbalanced with the word of God and with Scriptures. It is to mislead people and to give them a false sense of God's word and of His guidance. We need to learn submission to God in "whatever circumstances" we may find ourselves.
If all life is is an "escape," then why even be here? But if we're here to help sinners in a sinful world then we'll have to expect some abuse by sinners!
God's Word==3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish ""above all things"" that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. ""above all things""
Philippians 2:5-8 5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death- even death on a cross!
John 1:1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The only folly that you committed here HIH, is that you gave GISMYS the benefit of the doubt. All your suspicions were 200% correct, right from the beginning. GISMYS is preaching the prosperity gospel, shamelessly. This is what probably caught you off-guard, ...hard to fathom such overt shallowness and perversion. In the end, it appears that you saw the irrationality and deception with his argumentation, thus, the futility of reasoning and engaging with him. I'm being harsh because, as yourself, what he's espousing is utterly offensive and worse, subversive. Wealth has destroyed more people than it has protected. No one enjoys impoverishment, but having what is sufficient and judiciously prioritized, shall suffice all men.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and always will LoL. Love always hopes. He sees good in all of us, so I do too. I also see value in a number the things Jesse teaches actually. I see his Heaven experience as very real, and that it was meant to minister to the entire Word of Faith movement, because our God does not reject people, even denominations and movements, just because they have some things wrong, even some serious things wrong. If they love Him and believe in Him He reveals Himself. But there are some things Jesse gets wrong and does wrong, IMO. So when I enter into conversations like this, it is to try and correct the errors in hopes to make them that much stronger in their walk and witness.
The things I teach get rejected many times, because they involve correction. But is done with a good heart. I have no hard feelings for GISMYS, but one thing you may be right about is that I don't see him changing his mind on anything very quickly. But love always hopes.
I choose to believe God's Word and will not change to follow the ideas and opinions of little men!!! And you??
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I have no idea what your quotations have to do with the point? Obviously, I believe in the Scriptures.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yes, we wish the *best* for our friends and family in the Lord. This is *no guarantee* that they will avoid negatives times in this life. It is very important to have a positive, loving attitude towards others. To slander, to be malicious, is the opposite of the attitude of the Christian. But to wish the best for someone is not the same as guaranteeing it. That's the point.
FHII
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Hidden,
I feel mostly the same way. I don't mind a rich preacher though, if he is preaching the truth and is a faithful servant.
The prosperity gospel is a terrible thing, but it has some points of truth (that's the way Satan works...). We should give because we love God and have been taught. And yes, the preacher benefits. Not a bad thing... Hopefully he worked his butt off to come up with something edifying to say on Sunday and not just print off a sermon from sermons.com.
In short, there is nothing wrong with being prosperous financially. But this verse also says to prosper in health and as your soul prospers. We ought to look at all three of these things, and the latter is the most important
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I agree. And actually I have often considered that Jesse may be a case in point of the Lord choosing a man to display that He can and will greatly bless with material things if He so choses; that He still can do so today just as He did back in Old Testament times. It could well serve as a testimony to Satanists, for instance, that theirs is not the only god who can bless in this life if He so chooses. So I honestly don't judge the man as quickly as others do.
But the problem for me is I think there are a whole lot of faith people out there who think they have been chosen for something similar when in reality they are simply pursuing their fleshly desires, ministers especially. This is evident in how incredibly OFF some of their teachings and interpretations of scripture can be. You will see more egregious abuses of Biblical texts among faith people than just about anywhere, and it starts with making false assumptions that they should be teaching people. They are operating under terrible delusions and assumptions in a lot of ways.
Understand==God wants for His family that ""above all things"" that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Good Scripture!
It's an equating (a caveat so to speak) of "John's well wishing to an other that the individual prosper evenly "AS" the other's soul is Prospering.
That Scripture highlights a Prospering SOUL, that we know is Effected within a man, by Christ Jesus Himself.
As far as Monetary and Things Gained...it's not a big secret how one gains those things...
Inheritances, winnings, judgements, deals, agreements, settlements, theft, deceptions,
donations, gifts, credit, debt, work...etc.
I would have NO CLUE WHAT or how others Gain, nor care.
But some people think other people's business IS THEIR business to criticize, imply scandal and such.
Individuals who choose to give their money, assets, time to ANY organization...is Their business, whether or not Other people approve.
Glory to God,
Taken
GISMYS, your remarks are entirely impotent before me. You are not qualified to speak on behalf of Scripture, to offer warnings or exhortations. You're a greedy, misguided and avaricious anti-christ.
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