Hello all my name is Marco and lately I been on a spiritual journey to strengthen and validate my believes. I been a christian all my life and have accepted Jesus Christ my personal lord and savior. However, for the past few months i have been questioning my faith.I have been praying for understanding and discussing my questions with my pastor and friends. However, i still feel lost and confused. Therefore, i decided to try several forums in hopes of finding some answers or perhaps gaining a better understanding. i believe god perhaps is testing my faith and maybe this journey will strengthen my faith in the end.So with that said, id like to discuss some questions with you all:My main questions revolve around why god sends nonbelievers to hell. why?Well there are countless of faiths other then Christianity around the world which accounts for about 40% of the world. Also allot of them are good peaceful people who have been raised to be Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim etc.....why do they deserve to go to hell? How is it there fault they were raised and conditioned under a religion outside of Christianity?Also what about the native Americans that lived in the Americas.... at least 100 million or more indigenous people may have lived in the Americas when the 1492 voyage of Christopher Columbus began along with the European invasion and introduction of Christianity into the Americas.The Native Americans knew nothing of Jesus Christ and have been dying for centuries with out knowledge of his existence until the pilgrims from Europe finally came and began to spread christianity. Which means every native Americans prior 1492 went to hell.Even today there are many who will die and never hear of Jesus, such as the many isolated idian tribes that exist through out deep in south American amazons. Why do they deserve to go to hell?.................So with that said, i decided to further think about why god sends people to hell . I began to think about the original sin that lead to the fall of man. Which lead me to ask my self, why did god place the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden anyway? Some have told me it was because he wants mankind to have free will... But still you'd have to ask, couldn't he have gone about it in a less harsh way? Why allow your children that you love face the possibility of eternity in hell just so that they can have free will? Now lets suppose this is true, If mankind kind gained freewill to choose evil or good after eve committed the first sin, then who was guiding Eves will before she took the fruit? some say it was the devil...but then again who allowed the devil into the garden in the first place? [FONT="]Then comes the punishment.....[/FONT]
Is it right to Question my faith?
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[FONT="]Continued...Which i just dont understand how its proportional to the crime.[/FONT] [FONT="]Its because of this sin, Adamn and eve, along with all their decedents (us) will have to face the possibility of hell.[/FONT]...Hell is the ultimate punishment..... [FONT="]So how could God punish Eve in such a extreme way for this sin when she didnt even have the capacity to distinguish evil from good? She Also was being deceived by the devil whom god allowed into the garden in the first place. She had no defense against the devil as well since deception/lies is a sinful act which she has no understanding of and therefore unable to see through such things.[/FONT] [FONT="]How is this fair and loving for god to permit?[/FONT] [FONT="]So with that said....[/FONT]Then i look at the sacrifice jesus made which is supposed to pay the debt for our sins so that we may be saved. I never really questioned this before until recently....and now i ask my self, why would anyone even need to accept the sacrifice of jesus if the debt is payed?Its like if you owe money and are taken to court and the judge says either pay the debt or go to jail. Then some one pays the collector the debt for you. Why would it matter if you accept the payment or not? it wouldnt even be up to you anyway...it would be up to the collector/judge to accept the payment.So if the debt is paid....It wouldn't make sense that the judge still send you to jail afterwards.... right?................And finally.....my last question(well at least for now) How was it even possible for God to sacrifice anything? How can somthing that is eternal, complete, perfect etc.... lose anything? How is the death of jesus a sacrifice?What did god lose? According to my understanding, inorder to commit a sacrifice, one has to lose somthing. So...How is it possible for god to lose anything?How can somthing that is eternal, complete and perfect experience a sacrifice when it has nothing to lose?Ill end it at that for now...Thanks for taking the time to read all of this. Any answers or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.God bless.
good questions...first, the punishment is proportional to the crime as God is an infinite being and even finite sins against Him, if not atoned for, have eternal implications... for more on this go to the following excellent book by William GT Shedd:http://www.puritan-books.com/books/pdf/shedd_endless_punishment.pdfsecond on this issue. God's word teaches us that God is sovereign, even over when and where we are born... so American Indian, the Australian Aboriginal, etc etc.. all were born when and where they were, without ever having had the chance to hear the gospel, because that is where they were supposed to have been born... when thinking about God's knowledge, we know that God knows conditionals as well as actualities.... so He knows all the answers to the "what if" questions, so He knows that person A born in 30 AD in the jungles of South America had been born in England in the 1500's and would then have had exposure to the gospel, He would have known that such a person would have responded positively .... if such a person was NOT born in a time and place where they would have been exposed to the Gospel, God knows that they would not have and thus had them born in a time and place where they would never hear... lastly on this point is to try and disabuse yourself of the notion that people are innocent, or that God would ever deny a person who wanted to to come to Him for salvation the chance to do that... God is a just and righteous God and never would deny anyone... in any case, because often implicit in the sorts of questions like "what about the innocent native who has never heard?" is the idea that such a person was not a sinner, was in fact "innocent" etc... but the bible is clear that all have sinned, all have fallen short of the glory of God, there is no one righteous, no not one...Rom 3:10-19 ESV as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." (13) "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." (14) "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." (15) "Their feet are swift to shed blood; (16) in their paths are ruin and misery, (17) and the way of peace they have not known.", (18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes." (19) Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God..... and even what moral light people do have, whatever moral laws their culture happens to have, they have sinned even against that law. This moral law that is in all of us is, when viewed properly, when not under the taint of original sin, it is a reflection of God's moral character, such that sins committed against a particular law (do not murder for instance) in some country where the gospel had not yet been preached, is still a violation of God's law and thus, if there is no atonement to reconcile the sinner to God, then they have to bear the punishment for that sins themselves...finally, I would encourage you to read Jonathan Edwards work entitled "Original Sin"... its free online, just google it... it will help you to properly understand this doctrine...as to why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil etc... some things are just not for us to know... when it comes to metaphysical questions we can answer only those that God has chosen to reveal to us through his word.. could God have done things differently...? of course, but since God is by His very nature omniscient, wouldn't you think that whatever way He DID do things, it would be the best way, even if we have to say that in our own finite minds, we do not understand why...?Eve did have the ability to distinguish between good and evil... God told her what she could and could not do... she violated His command willingly and knowingly... her defense against the devil was to obey God's commands...as far as Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross goes, it did not pay the debt for all the people who ever lived, but only for those for whom Christ died, those who believe...Joh 3:16-18 ESV "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.so the debt is paid only for believers...as to your last question, this is why God had to become a man...hope these help... let me know if something was unclear or if you need me to "try" and give a fuller explanation...blessings,ken
marco305!!! I feel you Brother. In my Christian I have came across doctrine that shook the foundation of what I really believed. I would have to step back are re-evaluate things. Your question is Why would God send anyone to Hell. It bothers you. Just because they don't believe on Jesus. It seems cruel and unfair.asking this question (Outside) your own Christian Circle will give you different responses. I would strongly suggest you keep what your own Pastor told you, but Here are some different belief's, You might hear here.THERE IS NO HELL DOCTRINE and/or NO ETERNAL SUFFERINGYou have a few choices. There are groups of Christians that do not believe in Hell. They have the same problem your facing. So they take the original language of the Bible, move around the Greek and Hebrew words and come up with a doctrine that God is not sending anyone to Hell. There are various forms of this Doctrine. Some believe there is no Hell where the person roast away, but that they are just destroyed into nothing, that way they don't suffer eternally because they are not around. It's like putting a criminal to death, instead of have them sit year, after year in prison.I do not subscribe to any of these doctrines. They are false, though someone will try to convince you they are true using a bunch of Greek and Hebrew. It's the only way they can come up with these doctrines.GOD HAS ALREADY CHOSEN DOCTRINE:There is a doctrine that believes God has already Chosen who goes to Heaven or Hell. There is nothing you can do about it. God made this choice before that person was born, So count yourself Lucky you know Jesus. This Makes God a respecter of Persons, and very cruel and unfair. There is a watered down version of this Doctrine. This Doctrine says that God has already Chosen who his "Elect" people will be. There is prof in scripture that God did pick Jeremiah to be His prophet before Jeremiah was even born. This did not make Jeremiah born again though, It just made him a tool God can use. Salvation is for anyone that will believe on the Word preached, and this Doctrine believes that also, but only a selected group is chosen to be Used by God, the rest are just overcomer's. There are subtle differences in this "Elections" Doctrine, and it depends on who you ask.My advice to you is to regroup, and be glad you have a heart for people that face judgment for not knowing Jesus. There is something you can do to save many. I would take that Heart you have, and use it. God is fair, and people have a choice to choose Jesus or not choose. Lets say you had two children. One, stuck by your side and the other did their own thing and would have nothing to do with you. Many years latter, you became very successful, and had lots of money. The child that stuck by your side is also helping you and sharing the wealth. You give the child a call that left you, and ask them to come back and share the wealth, but they told you they did not want your money or anything to do with you. What are you going to do? You still love this wayward child, but they refuse to be part of your life. There is nothing you can do, and you can't force them to come back to you, even though you could have blessed them. It's not your fault, but they have made their choice. Think about it.
So, you see that people still have a choice, and know right or wrong. So, don't feel bad for them. God has a plan for these that have not heard the Gospel, and that plan does not mean Hell. It means God is looking at their heart and looking at the choices they have made. Everyone on this planet knows it's wrong to steal. I don't care what religion they believe in. Even the Laws of every government punish those that steal or kill someone unjustly. This is How God judges those things. However, if they have heard the gospel of Jesus and reject that. They will be accountable for what they have heard. Every Muslim on the planet today has heard about Jesus if hey have any access to media. Don't worry about it, God is fair, and has a plan in place to judge these things.
First don't assume anything, and Don't assume they went to Hell, where the Law is not preached sin is not imputed. God already has a system in place for these people. You can't just say they went to hell, because you don't know. God is a faithful God, and does not play favorites. They will be judged, but that does not mean they will not make it and end up in Hell. Read the below scripture carefully.Rom 2:11 For God shows no partiality [[d] undue favor or unfairness; with Him one man is not different from another].(B) Rom 2:12 All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law. Rom 2:13 For it is not merely hearing the Law [read] that makes one righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be held guiltless and acquitted and justified. Rom 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the [divine] Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law. Rom 2:15 They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their [moral] [e] decisions (their arguments of reason, their condemning or approving [f] thoughts) will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse [them] AMPLIFIED BIBLESo if man has not heard the Word preached they still have a conscience to follow. They still know what is right and what is wrong, even if they have not heard about Jesus. The Laws of God is placed in everyone's heart as a conscience. If a man does things they know are wrong and continue to disobey what they know to be right, they are judged by their actions, not being a doer of what they know to be right. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
So, you see that people still have a choice, and know right or wrong. So, don't feel bad for them. God has a plan for these that have not heard the Gospel, and that plan does not mean Hell. It means God is looking at their heart and looking at the choices they have made. Everyone on this planet knows it's wrong to steal. I don't care what religion they believe in. Even the Laws of every government punish those that steal or kill someone unjustly. This is How God judges those things. However, if they have heard the gospel of Jesus and reject that. They will be accountable for what they have heard. Every Muslim on the planet today has heard about Jesus if hey have any access to media. Don't worry about it, God is fair, and has a plan in place to judge these things.
Your not looking at this correctly. By Law a defendant has the the right to refuse bail monies from a third party. The whole responsibility of defense is placed on the defendant, and The judge will honor request of a defendant to refuse bail money or money paid for any debt owed to the state, coming from a third Party. LAST QUESTION: Tree's and EveThe sin was never blamed on Eve. Adam knew full well what he was doing. Also Someone would have to assume God is the one that put the tree of good and evil in the Garden. Scriptures never tell us who put it there, God just told them not to eat the fruit from the tree. The Hebrew for the tree of Good and evil is tree of calamity. The tree that gives knowledge of bad things. I doubt God put the tree there.God made Adam in his image, Adam was not designed to be a puppet, but to guard the garden and take care of it. God gave Adam everything He needed, He just asked Adam to leave "ONE" tree out of many alone and Adam did not do that. Thats not God's fault. Summary: epistemaniac has some very good points also, though he did not use the passage I used in Romans, but the Bottom line in what your being told by epistemaniac and myself is that you will find out that God is fair, and God knows what He is doing. Don't feel bad for those that "YOU THINK" did not have a chance. That is just your thoughts, from a limited point of information. God, has all the information and like Romans said. God knows what is in their hearts, and if they obeyed their conscience with the Laws God put there. Be thankful you have a heart for the Lost, and use that to your advantage and God's.Jesus Is Lord.
I think a lot could be said about all of these questions, but I think mike and epistemaniac did a good job. I have trouble reading really long posts... but I think for the most part, they both gave you solid answers for your questions.
I will say this much for you, hell does exist but what you have to understand is that its all taking place in the spiritual realm and you have to adjust your thinking to spiritual burning. Matthew 18:8 does document that hell is eternal though.
I doubt God put the tree there.[/QUOTE said:I had never thought of that before... I had assumed that everything in the Garden was put there by God (expect for maybe Satan). It is a very interesting question that I'll have to look into further.
Elaine and Deadwheat1224This subject can get way over into the Serpent Seed Doctrine. I posted a long post about all the doctrines and the scriptures used, but I am having an issue with cookies and the post went bye bye. So, I'll just make it short. I warn both of you that there are many different "IDEAS" about this, and prideful people that think there version is correct. The truth is, God had the account written in Genesis to be clear and easy to understand. God also knows that someone reading the account would assume that Two trees where just trees and nothing else. The tree of Life and the tree of Good and Evil. I fully Believe God meant it to be understood this way, But I also believe that God opens up scripture to give greater revelation of things. This was written in the Old testament and things often where done in parables, so you had to compare scripture with scripture to unlock some meaning. The tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.The correct Hebrew term for this Tree would be.The Tree that made one Aware of calamity, bad things that can happen, to know sorrow, to know hurtful things, to know evil things, The awareness of DEATH. There tree never separated Bad from Good. It just imparted the knowledge of evil. When Adam ate the fruit of that tree, Death was imparted to him. Adam became a mortal man with a life span. Satan is the one that had power over death, not God. Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Both trees were put in the Garden. They did not grow there.Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Many people believe that God "(Takes)-Murders them" loved ones, makes people sick to teach them something or refine them with sickness or accidents to make them more like Jesus. NOT SO!!!Jesus came to give us life, and give it abundantly. (John 10:10)God is not the God of the dead, but the living. (Mat 22:32)Some believe that God is running around with the devil making people sick, and killing loved ones. (God took them home, for he evil to come) God and the devil are on the same team. Jesus ran around trying to keep up with God and the devil fixing what they destroyed. Mat 4:23Mat 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.Now, People will not admit they believe this way, when they use terms like "God took them home." But it's really what they believe. Don't be fooled.However, we are told it was God who was with Jesus, and the devil that came to steal kill and destroy. A kingdom divided against itself will fall. So the tree that produced Death In Adam could have only come from one source. SATAN!!! It was not God's tree, He is God of the living.---------------------------------------------------------------------------It Gets a lot deeper than just real trees. Trees in the bible represent people or things that produce fruit. You will also see that trees are referred to as men in the Minor Prophets. Fruit is something that cane be eaten. It can also mean something spiritual.Hos 10:13 Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men. Some contend that It was the fruit of lies Adam and Eve believed on, because they trusted in what Satan was saying. They also say that Satan told them they were Naked as God asked Adam who told you that you were naked.Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? This would leave one to believe that the fruit was just more than a fruit produced by a tree, and the tree was more than just something that grew in the ground and had branches. Even comparing the tree of Life we can trace vine's and branches, to People. Some compare to Jesus as he is the only one that can give eternal life.Eze 19:10 Thy mother is like a vine in thy blood, planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters. Joh 15:5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. God blocked the WAY to the truth and Life.Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.We know that SATAN was in the Garden. Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Satan was created, not born into the World. There is also a Serpent Seed doctrine where Eve had Sex with Satan and produced Cain. Because of the various forms of this Doctrine, I won't give the supporting scriptures. It goes beyond what we are talking about. I draw no conclusion from this Doctrine.What I can draw from scripture is that Tree of Good and Evil was not God's And God did not put it there. That tree produced Death, or the fruit of the tree, or the Tree was Satanic in Nature and produced Lies or even Satan himself. Whatever you want to believe. One thing you can be sure to believe, It was not God's Tree.Jesus Is Lord
A. God does not send unbelievers to hell. He loves His creation so much, rather we choose to accept God’s provision for us or we choose to reject His provision, thereby choosing our destiny in a similar way that Adam first chose independence. (Eve was deceived).Concerning religion, many religions? Jesus showed His hatred for religion, the religion of His day. He even called the religionists sons of Satan. God’s provision for fallen humanity is the Person of Jesus Christ. Nothing more and nothing less. As this topic is so vital and comprehensive, we need to start in the book of Genesis.There were two trees in the centre of the Garden of Eden, the tree of Knowledge which God forbade man to eat, and the Tree of Life which He desired man to feast on and enjoy. The Tree of Knowledge represents INDEPENDENCE, whereas the Tree of Life represents DEPENDENCE. In other words God desired Mankind to be totally dependent on Himself. Tragically man chose to eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil hence becoming independent of God.Immediately God banned the man from the Tree of Life. It is interesting to note that God desired man in the garden to eat, which means enjoy the fruit of the Tree of Life. Hence He desired man just to eat and enjoy.Immediately God set about man’s recovery so that he would once again be able to eat of the Tree of Life in order to fulfil God’s original Plan. Without man’s eating of the tree of Life God cannot fulfil His Desire for the man He had created.We must not forget that Adam was not a Son of God rather he was a created being. So, he also needed to receive the life of God (Eternal Life).To fulfil His plan, God became a man (incarnation). He lived a perfect human life, gave himself to death, conquered death and ascended to the Father in order to become the life giving Spirit. This God accomplished so that He could get His life and nature into man. The triune God as the Spirit enters into man in redemption. He enlivens man’s dead spirit and joins Himself with man’s spirit.”They that are one with the Lord are one spirit”.This wonderful person as the Life Giving Spirit today is the Tree of Life and He is now accessible to us. We can once again “eat” Him daily and enjoy Him. He desires that we feast on Him daily and become constituted with His Life and Nature, loving Him and becoming totally dependent on Him. Praise His wonderful Name.Through this process we not only have become God's true Sons, brothers of Jesus Christ, with the Triune God as our Father, but we become totally conformed to the Image of His Son Jesus Christ. This is the reality, which God desires.I have made this response as simple and brief as possible and am open to any questions regarding my writing. I have not given all the answers to what you have asked but this is the start if you so desire?.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
What did your Pastor say? Personally I adhere to Romans 8:1-39 From go to whoa it delivers the goods. Rom 8:1-2(1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.There is no condemnation, even when a true believer finds themselves questioning.All things work together for good...remember. There is nothing that can separate a true believer from the love of God.Rom 8:38-39(38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,(39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
interesting points Mike.. I am thinking over some of what you have written...however, you said
Yes, but God has power over Satan.. so ultimately, God has power over death... look at the account of Job... Satan did many things to Job... took his land, his possessions, even killed his loved ones.... but Satan could do none of these things without God's permission... Job 1:12 NASB Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.after Satan accomplished all these things and job still did not curse God Satan asked for permission to smite Job personally, to take away his health, God allowed Satan to do this as well...Job 2:3-7 NASB The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause." (4) Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. (5) "However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face." (6) So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life." (7) Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.'So the main point of this is that we do not live in a ying/yang type of existence where there are 2 forces at war, a force for good and an equal force for evil... (not that this is what you are saying, but unfortunately many think this way) but rather we live in a creation that is controlled by an absolutely sovereign God where nothing happens, not good or evil, without God's either actually decreeing it and causing it in an immediate direct sense, or that God allows it to happen via mediate means eg Satan or sinful people...In the account of the temptation and the Garden.... there is no indication that any thing was present in that Garden except what God had created:Gen 2:8 NASB The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed."So I just do not see any biblical principle or passage which one could point to which would say that Satan planted anything in the Garden... indeed, the text seems to specifically say that God planted the trees in the garden..Gen 2:9 NASB Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."Keil and Delitzsche say "In the garden itself God caused all kinds of trees to grow out of the earth; and among them were two, which were called “the tree of life” and “the tree of knowledge of good and evil,”"so when you say
I would have to say that Scripture says otherwise....for more on this:"The expression "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" must be interpreted to mean that the tree would produce fruit which, when eaten, gives special knowledge of "good and evil." Scholars debate what this phrase means here. For a survey of opinions, see G. J. Wenham, Genesis (WBC), 1:62-64. One view is that "good" refers to that which enhances, promotes, and produces life, while "evil" refers to anything that hinders, interrupts or destroys life. So eating from this tree would change human nature--people would be able to alter life for better (in their thinking) or for worse. See D. J. A. Clines, "The Tree of Knowledge and the Law of Yahweh," VT 24 (1974): 8-14, and I. Engnell, "'Knowledge' and 'Life' in the Creation Story," VTSup 3 (1955): 103-19. Another view understands the "knowledge of good and evil" as the capacity to discern between moral good and evil. The following context suggests the tree's fruit gives one wisdom (see the phrase "capable of making one wise" in Gen_3:6, as well as the note there on the word "wise"), which certainly includes the capacity to discern between good and evil. Such wisdom is characteristic of divine beings, as the serpent's promise implies (Gen_3:5) and as Gen_3:22 makes clear. (Note, however, that this capacity does not include the ability to do what is right.) God prohibits man from eating of the tree. The prohibition becomes a test to see if man will be satisfied with his role and place, or if he will try to ascend to the divine level. There will be a time for man to possess moral discernment/wisdom, as God reveals and imparts it to him, but it is not something to be grasped at in an effort to become "a god." In fact, the command to be obedient was the first lesson in moral discernment/wisdom. God was essentially saying: "Here is lesson one--respect my authority and commands. Disobey me and you will die." When man disobeys, he decides he does not want to acquire moral wisdom God's way, but instead tries to rise immediately to the divine level. Once man has acquired such divine wisdom by eating the tree's fruit (Gen_3:22), he must be banned from the garden so that he will not be able to achieve his goal of being godlike and thus live forever, a divine characteristic (Gen_3:24). Ironically, man now has the capacity to discern good from evil (Gen_3:22), but he is morally corrupted and rebellious and will not consistently choose what is right." (NET Bible translation notes)thanks though for starting out with the fact that there are many ideas concerning what this passage means and while we cannot be dogmatic on the points of speculation, we can know some things eg who planted the 2 trees in the midst of the garden... namely God....blessings,ken
Thank you again Brother for you timely corrections.
first, I did not go into all the doctrines out there about those trees. I only posted what i saw and what I believe about the tree of calamity. Why, because I was asked to explain why I believed that. It was in response to what I said. "I DOUBT, that God put that tree there." It was not a ALL KNOWING response. I then gave my reasons knowing that I was coming up against many thoughts about that tree, and trees compared to people. I fully believe that God did not put that tree there, or else I am ripping The book of James out of my bible as God does not tempt any man. To think that God would do something on purpose to tempt someone. God knew that "Tree" Would be an issue, so He gave Adam a very strong Warning. It's like God telling us not to commit adultery, then sending half naked college girls to wait for us in bed when we get home.God Hates disobedience, and is not the cause of any of it. You also read Job a whole lot differently than I do. Welcome to Doctrine Brother. I have a post on Job running around here somewhere if you would like to look at it.See, the God I know does not give permission to anyone to kill someones children, if they love God and obey God. That is not "MY" God. That is Evil. Extremely Evil. Ask anyone that has had a child murdered, they do know the difference. Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Be blessed.Jesus Is Lord
There is a vast difference between being tempted and sin. Both Jesus and Satan were tempted. It was God who had a savior before He had a sinner, it was God who put the tree of Good and Evil in the garden. It was God who lowered Adam and Eve from pure spirit on the sixth day when they were created in God's Image. (God is a spirit) and then on the seventh day God formed (lowered) them to become a living soul. Adam and Eve had no choice; it was God who caused the fall. With a little search of the original language of the Bible as well as the inconsistencies of the word's like eternal, everlasting etc. It is easy to see eternal hell is a religious dogma and not scriptural.
If your assumtion that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden, then who did? What for?Who created that tree, if all creation came into being through Christ?We do not know whether or not the trees in the garden were actual trees, but one thing we can rely on God has given the description of the trees in the garden so that we depraved human beings are able to understand what he is saying. Why not just simply accept what God has said, and respond. Adam and Even were told not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. In their disobedience they chose to live independently of God. They also forfeited the Tree of Life, which was then taken away from them, for their benefit.But God Who is so rich in mercy toward His creation, immediately set into motion the plan to recover man so that today he once again has the same choice as Adam and Eve.Today we can choose between the Tree of Life, dependence on (The processed God) or the Tree of Knowledge, independence (Satan's deception)
Nice opinion on poor little Adam and Eve but let us look at God's Word and not the opinion of men; here are two verses to back up my opinion...It was God not little Adam and eve who caused the fall….Romans 8:20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hopePS 90:1LORD, YOU have been our dwelling place and our refuge in all generations [says Moses]. 2Before the mountains were brought forth or ever You had formed and given birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. 3You turn man back to dust and corruption, and say, Return, O sons of the earthborn [to the earth]![quote name='rob;72478]"I doubt God put the tree there." Hello Elaine! If your assumtion that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden' date=' then who did? What for?Who created that tree, if all creation came into being through Christ?We do not know whether or not the trees in the garden were actual trees, but one thing we can rely on God has given the description of the trees in the garden so that we depraved human beings are able to understand what he is saying. Why not just simply accept what God has said, and respond. Adam and Even were told not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. In their disobedience they chose to live independently of God. They also forfeited the Tree of Life, which was then taken away from them, for their benefit.But God Who is so rich in mercy toward His creation, immediately set into motion the plan to recover man so that today he once again has the same choice as Adam and Eve.Today we can choose between the Tree of Life, dependence on (The processed God) or the Tree of Knowledge, independence (Satan's deception)[/QUOTE']
Genesis 2:8-9And Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden, in the East; and there He put the man whom He had formed.And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden AND THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.i. Verse 9 Indicates that God wanted to please the man and make him happy. God wants man to be pleased with Him (Psalm 100; Philippians 4:4).ii. The second part of God's procedure in fulfilling His purpose was to place the created man in front of the tree of life, which signifies the Triune God embodied in Christ as life to man in the form of food. God's placing man in front of the tree of life indicates that God wanted man to receive Him as man's life by eating Him organically and assimilating Him metabolically, that God might become the very constituent of man's being. According to John 1:1-4, life is in the Word, who is God Himself. This life--- the divine, eternal, uncreated life of God---is Christ (John 11:25; 14:6; Colossians 3:4a),who is the embodiment of God (Colossians 2:9).The tree of life grows along the two sides of the river of the water of life (Revelation 22:1-2) indicating that it is a vine. Since Christ is a vine tree (John 15:1) and is also life, He is the tree of life. He was processed through incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection that man might have life and live by eating Him. John 10:10b; 6:51, 57, 63).
hey Rob... I already pointed out to Mike that the Bible specificiallty and explicitly says that it was God and God alone who planted every tree in the garden in Gen 2:8-9... thanks for reiterating it...Mike... you are welcome for the timely correction... I know it is not pleasant to be corrected, even less so to be corrected on a public forum, but I really mean you no disrespect Mike, rather I am paying you a compliment. If I did not care about you, I could just say "who cares if what he is teaching is actually contrary to the Scriptures...? just let him go on in his errors.. he doesn't matter..." But I do not want to feel this way about you, you seemed like a person who wanted to be biblical and I take you to be a person concerned with being biblical in all they believe and teach... since this teaching of yours about the tree being put in the garden is plainly and clearly unbiblical, I figured you would want to know about it. Gen. 2:8-9 clearly says that all the trees in the Garden were put there by God, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan put any tree in the garden... so at best you would be arguing from silence, at worst, and in this case this is what is happening, you would be teaching something directly against the Bible.Next, the fact that God was the one who put the trees in the Garden, it does not follow that this violates James' statement that God does not tempt anyone. The Bible says that whoever is tempted, when they are tempted they cannot blame anyone else except for themselves, for when they look for the reason as to why they are tempted, they need to look at themselves and not at God for the root cause of their temptation.Jam 1:13-15 ESV Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. (14) But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. (15) Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."Just because God put the trees in the garden, it doesn't mean that God was tempting anyone to do evil. God has put everyone and everything here on earth, He caused the earth to bring forth diamonds and gold and precious jewels... but the fact that people lust after these precious commodities in greedy and sometimes sinful ways, it does not mean that it is God's fault that sometimes people engage in sinful thoughts and behaviors, that God tempted anyone simply because He made the earth in such a way as to cause gold and diamonds to be formed.... so too with the tree in the garden... God has His reasons for putting the tree there, and He forbade Adam and Eve to eat from it, but just because He "caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." it doesn't mean that he can be blamed for Adam and Eve's sin... just as James says, if anyone sins, it is because "he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin".blessings,ken
I know it is not pleasant to be corrected, even less so to be corrected on a public forum, but I really mean you no disrespect Mike, rather I am paying you a compliment. If I did not care about you, I could just say "who cares if what he is teaching is actually contrary to the Scriptures...? just let him go on in his errors.. he doesn't matter..." But I do not want to feel this way about you, you seemed like a person who wanted to be biblical and I take you to be a person concerned with being biblical in all they believe and teach... since this teaching of yours about the tree being put in the garden is plainly and clearly unbiblical, I figured you would want to know about it. Gen. 2:8-9 clearly says that all the trees in the Garden were put there by God, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan put any tree in the garden... so at best you would be arguing from silence, at worst, and in this case this is what is happening, you would be teaching something directly against the Bible.Next, the fact that God was the one who put the trees in the Garden, it does not follow that this violates James' statement that God does not tempt anyone. The Bible says that whoever is tempted, when they are tempted they cannot blame anyone else except for themselves, for when they look for the reason as to why they are tempted, they need to look at themselves and not at God for the root cause of their temptation.Jam 1:13-15 ESV Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. (14) But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. (15) Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."Just because God put the trees in the garden, it doesn't mean that God was tempting anyone to do evil. God has put everyone and everything here on earth, He caused the earth to bring forth diamonds and gold and precious jewels... but the fact that people lust after these precious commodities in greedy and sometimes sinful ways, it does not mean that it is God's fault that sometimes people engage in sinful thoughts and behaviors, that God tempted anyone simply because He made the earth in such a way as to cause gold and diamonds to be formed.... so too with the tree in the garden... God has His reasons for putting the tree there, and He forbade Adam and Eve to eat from it, but just because He "caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." it doesn't mean that he can be blamed for Adam and Eve's sin... just as James says, if anyone sins, it is because "he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin".blessings,kenSimilar threads
