God does not drag all....

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Boston

New Member
Oct 18, 2009
23
0
0
walker starrfta99;73629 said:
I definately have free will. I could have chosen not to read this. I could have chosen not to respond here. I could have chosen not to access this forum or even operate my computer. Yet here I am only because of the choices I have made. GOD Bless.
That's free agency.
 

Boston

New Member
Oct 18, 2009
23
0
0
Deadwheat1224;72427]I said:
This is a pretty interesting subject. I have wondered that myself for quite sometime and have looked into these things. I believe the verse which stands out the most (though there are many which relate) is, John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.Many theologians believe this verse to mean the gospel call, and unless someone hears the gospel they cannot be drawn, (or in the Greek- Drag); And this would make sense, except for a few problems, which are scripture being in harmony with itself, scripture has to interpret scripture. Augustine said, “If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Not everything in scripture is quickly or easily understood, it's not safe to believe what others say and teach without testing everything to God's word, when we truly desire truth, God will teach it. We have to be like the Berean's, Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.Back to John 6:44, Does God call/drag/draw everyone? Lets look at what scripture has to say:John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Matthew 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father...Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.Gal 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?I could go on for quite some time, but these few explain well enough.
Can someone help me understand where this comes from and how it fits into the nature of God as being all-good and perfectly loving?
God's nature is love and righteousness, He is the source of all good and truth, He is righteous, and all righteousness comes from Him. Curious, can you explain how this does not fit into God's nature?
 
E

Elaine

Guest
Deadwheat1224;72427]I said:
Sorry, I didn't get to all 11 pages here --what I wanted to say - my 2 cents is --whether I'm correct or not is "Of course, God is drawing all of us to Him." I picture some gliding right along or floating to him and others hanging onto a rope and being dragged over many slapstick type bumps and mud and rocks ---but they get there. LOL!And that is the nature of God --well, the nature of everything ---everything eventually goes back to it's source. :)
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
Yes God is going to draw/drag all men; that is scripture. But what most believers do no "see:" is how God will do this. :D
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
You have a freewill and choice for the little things like you said.

BUT...

Did you choose your color of skin?
Where you were born?
Your parents?
You cannot choose your salvation God must quicken you first or drag/draw you.

walker starrfta99 said:
I definately have free will. I could have chosen not to read this. I could have chosen not to respond here. I could have chosen not to access this forum or even operate my computer. Yet here I am only because of the choices I have made. GOD Bless.
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
You are confused here let me make it clear. There is big difference between God’s elect compared to the great multitude, which no man could number; but both are saved. Some will

There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Elect/Overcomer and everyone else.
All are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



mjrhealth said:
How do you come to that conclusion, it says. " all men", not His elect. ???

In His Love
savedbygrace57 said:
mj asked:

Hi savedbygraces, are you trying to convince us that God has only an elect, "144000",

Yes but thats a spiritual number to denote a group that no man can number..

rev 7:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 144000 is the same group but from a different perspective, in other words, the 144000 denotes the complted salvation of all of Gods elect, but they are comprised of not literal jewish tribes, but of people of all ethnic groups, the Israel of God..

But in any case, salvation is for a set limited number of people from the foundation and cannot be altered one way ot the other..

Jesus said:

matt 25:34

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
God is not calling all people now.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (King James Version)
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Benoni said:
God is not calling all people now.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (King James Version)
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

God is calling all people now.


John 1:6-9 ( KJV )
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
savedbygrace57 said:
mj asked:

Hi savedbygraces, are you trying to convince us that God has only an elect, "144000",

Yes but thats a spiritual number to denote a group that no man can number..

rev 7:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 144000 is the same group but from a different perspective, in other words, the 144000 denotes the complted salvation of all of Gods elect, but they are comprised of not literal jewish tribes, but of people of all ethnic groups, the Israel of God..

But in any case, salvation is for a set limited number of people from the foundation and cannot be altered one way ot the other..

Jesus said:

matt 25:34

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Its 12000 from the each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
savedbygrace57 said:
mjrhealth;73314 said:
How do you come to that conclusion, it says. " all men", not His elect. ???

In His Love

From studying scripture thats how..paul was the apostle to the gentiles and this meant that Gods salvation plan and purpose had exceeded just jews being saved and ransomed, and that His testimony from God to them, the gentiles..

1 tim 2:

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Also, Jesus was said to be a ransom for the many in another scripture:

matt 20 28

just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

So how does this verse harmonize with what paul says in 1 tim 2 6 ? Easily, paul is specifically speaking of all the many of which Jesus was speaking in matt 20 28..so all is used of to define of all sorts, as in all sorts of ethnic groups and social status..

This is quite different from your unbiblical slant and inference..

Do you have any gramatical or contextual evidence to support such a claim?
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Deadwheat1224 said:
I'm thinking its probably my religious upbringing... but I'm having trouble with this idea that God does not call/drag/draw everyone to him. My thought has always been that since God wants to be united with all of his children, that he calls (or drags) everyone to himself.

Can someone help me understand where this comes from and how it fits into the nature of God as being all-good and perfectly loving?

I think the reason you are having trouble with this is because most people do not take the context into account. This passage, John 6:44 was spoken to the Jews ( the only ones that Christ came to) and was spoken of the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. During that time God was preparing the Crucifixion, We have several quotes of the Jews being blinded. This blinding was done on purpose in order to bring about the Crucifixion.




We can reconcile John 6:44 rather quickly though. Look at what was going on. Jesus said in John 6:44 that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws him, then in John 12:32 Jesus says he will draw all men. We have what appears to be two conflicting statements, however when we look at the totality of Scripture we see otherwise. The reason no one could come to the Father during Jesus Ministry was because the mystery had not yet been revealed. The Gospel was being preached but only certain people were given understanding to comprehend it. After Christ went to the cross the entirety of the mystery was revealed. Before the cross, the mystery was hidden and only revealed to certain people, because God was setting up the crucifiction.

Mark 4:10-12 ( KJV ) [sup]10[/sup]And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. [sup]11[/sup]And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: [sup]12[/sup]That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Here Jesus clearly says that the 12 and those believers with them were given to understand the mystery. So while Jesus was on earth only those who were drawn by the Father could come to Him. Even the apostles did not understand the mystery. Jesus had to open the understanding of the apostles so that they could understand the Scriptures,

Luke 24:44-49 ( KJV ) 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Even the apostles did not understand the mystery until Christ opened their understanding, this is why no one could come to Christ unless the Father drew them. However, once Christ went to the cross, things changed. Hence Jesus statement, if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. Even Paul acknowledges this,

1 Corinthians 2:6-10 ( KJV ) 6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Paul says that the mystery was hidden and not revealed (that is why no one could come to Christ unless drawn by the Father). He says that if the princes of this world had known it the would not have crucified Christ, hence the reason for hiding it. But Paul says, now it has been revealed (after the cross, so that the princes of this world could not interfere) to us. The us is the apostles. Consider What Paul says here,

Ephesians 3:1-6 ( KJV ) 1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephesians 3:7-11 ( KJV ) [sup]7[/sup]Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. [sup]8[/sup]Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [sup]9[/sup]And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: [sup]10[/sup]To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, [sup]11[/sup]According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Paul says that He is a minister of this mystery to make all men see.

Romans 16:25-27 ( KJV ) [sup]25[/sup]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, [sup]26[/sup]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: [sup]27[/sup]To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


Again, Paul says that the mystery was not made known in other ages as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets. This is the reason that no one could come to Christ unless drawn by God prior to the cross, because the mystery had not yet been revealed. However, after the cross the mystery was revealed to the apostles and they spread the mystery. So, the mystery is no longer hidden, anyone can come to Christ now, hence Jesus statement, if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. John also said that Christ gives light to every man that comes into the world.


Here is link to an article that explains this in more detail.

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin10.html
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Jordan said:
Deadwheat1224;72427 said:
I'm thinking its probably my religious upbringing... but I'm having trouble with this idea that God does not call/drag/draw everyone to him. My thought has always been that since God wants to be united with all of his children, that he calls (or drags) everyone to himself.

Can someone help me understand where this comes from and how it fits into the nature of God as being all-good and perfectly loving?

I think you are looking at flesh only. He may not do it in this time of age, but we also have the Millennium Reign as well.

However that to draw one to God doesn't necessarily mean that person is saved... All woman and man has to make a decision to accept Christ as Lord and Saviour or not.

Again we also have the Millennium Reign, so don't worry about this age of time we are in, but rather try to make a difference in one's life to see if they chose God or not...

Blessings

And according to scripture we know that this is accomplished.



Php 2:10&11 So at the name of Jesus everyone will bow down, those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. And to the glory of God the Father everyone will openly agree, "Jesus Christ is Lord!"
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
That is not what I was saying yes in the fullness of time all will believe but not all people believe NOW because they have not been called/draw/dragged quicken. By The way the word “might” was added by the translator in John 1:6 if you look at the Greek. God does not “might” anything? He does or He does not..

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.


John 1:7

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe KJV
NT:4100 pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o); from NT:4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):



If God has not called you, you cannot come for you are dead in trustpasses and sin we have already covered that in the other thread; how can a dead carnal man come until God draws Him first.

If God calls you, you have no choice…….God is calling out a people to do His will; only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop. This verse is pregnant with God’s plan for all humanity.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

If God does not call you, you cannot come, you do not have the freewill, the choice to come.


Butch5 said:
Benoni said:
God is not calling all people now.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (King James Version)
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

God is calling all people now.


John 1:6-9 ( KJV )
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
Spiritual Israel yes, but this is a symbolic number, the number 12 speaks of divine goverment.

Twelve speaks of Divine Government; a few examples; 12 Tribes, 12 Disciples, 12 Gates of Jerusalem,

144 (12x12=144) 12 is the perfect number, representing Devine perfection in the government in the kingdom of God


To give a relevant example, what did Jesus actually say was the only reason that he first came ? :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

This then is the means by which Jesus intends to save all sinners, but most who cal themselves 'Christian' do not even know he said this, let alone knowing who the House of Israel are or that the new cvenant of grace is ONLY with those whose fathers broke the old covenant, with the descendants of the House of Israel and the House of Judah ...

Do you see how far religion has strayed , it no longer seeks out the House of Israel that the disciples of Jesus were commanded to go and find, scattered amongst the gentiles :-

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Butch5 said:
savedbygrace57 said:
mj asked:

Hi savedbygraces, are you trying to convince us that God has only an elect, "144000",

Yes but thats a spiritual number to denote a group that no man can number..

rev 7:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 144000 is the same group but from a different perspective, in other words, the 144000 denotes the complted salvation of all of Gods elect, but they are comprised of not literal jewish tribes, but of people of all ethnic groups, the Israel of God..

But in any case, salvation is for a set limited number of people from the foundation and cannot be altered one way ot the other..

Jesus said:

matt 25:34

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Its 12000 from the each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
I think the reason you are having trouble with this is because most people do not take the context into account. This passage, John 6:44 was spoken to the Jews ( the only ones that Christ came to) and was spoken of the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. During that time God was preparing the Crucifixion, We have several quotes of the Jews being blinded. This blinding was done on purpose in order to bring about the Crucifixion.


This is total HOGWASH and based on your bias and assumption and not God’s Word, you do not like what the verse is saying so you are spinning it. By the way the Jews were only one of twelve tribes, Jesus came for the "Lost tribes of Israel" as I just posted.

Two more point seeing we are speaking of Abram' s seed, the Lost tribes of Israel.

The nation of Israel today, the one that was established in 1948 is the tribe of Judah (#4) and Benjamin (#12) known as the Jews; they are not all Israel but two tribes.

There were twelve tribes, the Bible had Benjamin and Joseph (11) born by Rachel the chosen bride, then their ten half brothers born by maid servants and their names were, Rueben(1), Simeon (2), Levi(3), Judah(4), Dan(5), Naphtali(6), Gad(7), Asher(8), Issachar(9) and Zebulun(10), this can be found in Genesis 29.

The twelve tribes under David and Solomon were one nation but later were separated in fact the name of the ten tribes during this separation was “Israel”. During the separation Judah and Benjamin were known as Judah. Israel; the northern ten tribes were later scattered and lost absorbed into many nations. Point being no one really knows where they are or who they are.

So your nation of Israel today is not Israel just two tribes known as Judah (Benjamin and Judah).

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel


Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


Notice the promise to Abram from God the numbers God promised his prophet in time. Genesis 32:12And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.


Genesis 22:16-18 (King James Version)
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore[/b]; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

How many millions of grains of sand can you put in your two hands at the sea shore; how many stars can you count on a cold winter day; and that only the ones you can see. Just think how many grains of sand in a dump truck? :D




 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Benoni said:
I think the reason you are having trouble with this is because most people do not take the context into account. This passage, John 6:44 was spoken to the Jews ( the only ones that Christ came to) and was spoken of the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. During that time God was preparing the Crucifixion, We have several quotes of the Jews being blinded. This blinding was done on purpose in order to bring about the Crucifixion.


This is total HOGWASH and based on your bias and assumption and not God’s Word, you do not like what the verse is saying so you are spinning it. By the way the Jews were only one of twelve tribes, Jesus came for the "Lost tribes of Israel" as I just posted.

Two more point seeing we are speaking of Abram' s seed, the Lost tribes of Israel.

The nation of Israel today, the one that was established in 1948 is the tribe of Judah (#4) and Benjamin (#12) known as the Jews; they are not all Israel but two tribes.

There were twelve tribes, the Bible had Benjamin and Joseph (11) born by Rachel the chosen bride, then their ten half brothers born by maid servants and their names were, Rueben(1), Simeon (2), Levi(3), Judah(4), Dan(5), Naphtali(6), Gad(7), Asher(8), Issachar(9) and Zebulun(10), this can be found in Genesis 29.

The twelve tribes under David and Solomon were one nation but later were separated in fact the name of the ten tribes during this separation was “Israel”. During the separation Judah and Benjamin were known as Judah. Israel; the northern ten tribes were later scattered and lost absorbed into many nations. Point being no one really knows where they are or who they are.

So your nation of Israel today is not Israel just two tribes known as Judah (Benjamin and Judah).

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel


Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


Notice the promise to Abram from God the numbers God promised his prophet in time. Genesis 32:12And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.


Genesis 22:16-18 (King James Version)
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore[/b]; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

How many millions of grains of sand can you put in your two hands at the sea shore; how many stars can you count on a cold winter day; and that only the ones you can see. Just think how many grains of sand in a dump truck? :D





What's your point. I did not say anyting of mdoern Israel. All I did was quote Christ.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Benoni---That is not what I was saying yes in the fullness of time all will believe but not all people believe NOW because they have not been called/draw/dragged quicken. By The way the word “might” was added by the translator in John 1:6 if you look at the Greek. God does not “might” anything? He does or He does not..

If you look at the Greek you will find that the word believe is in the "Subjunctive" mood which indicates possibility or probability but "not" certainty. That is the reason the word might was added by the translators.

Benoni---Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.


John 1:7

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe KJV
NT:4100 pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o); from NT:4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):



If God has not called you, you cannot come for you are dead in trespasses and sin we have already covered that in the other thread; how can a dead carnal man come until God draws Him first.

You may have covered it but I do not accept it. As I have shown the verse you use to support this claim is used out of context. John 1:9 tells us that Christ illuminates every person that comes into the world. Illuminates is a metaphor to understanding, Christ gives understanding to every person that comes into the world.



Benoni---If God calls you, you have no choice…….God is calling out a people to do His will; only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop. This verse is pregnant with God’s plan for all humanity.

Again, I reject this idea, where does Scripture teach this. I see the opposite in Scripture.

Luke 7:30 ( KJV )
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.


1 Thessalonians 4:3 ( KJV )
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Are we to understand that no Christian has ever been guilty of fornication? If they have then they have resisted God's will.

Benoni---1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

If God does not call you, you cannot come, you do not have the freewill, the choice to come.

You keep saying man does not have free will yet you have not shown me this. On the contrary the Scriptures teach otherwise and the history of the early church tells us otherwise.

Jacob chose God of his free will.

Genesis 28:20-21 ( KJV )
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

Paul chose,


Acts 26:12-19 ( KJV )
Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

Let me ask you, if Paul had been disobedient to the vision would he have been saved?
 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
You are confusing two issues.


Man rejecting God (absolutely)
Man choosing God on his own freewill is what man cannot do until God first quickens/draws man.

Man rejects God, that is because man is spiritually dead as I pointed out. Carnal/religous man do not have the power of there own free will to choose God. If they do show me in scripture where man chooses his own salvation. Yes you showed me they reject God, I agree.

I already quoted the below. Adam had no choice and neither do we.





Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.
[sup] [/sup]
Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.


Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.



 

Benoni

New Member
Aug 16, 2009
498
13
0
124
Western NY
My point is who are the lost tribes.

Butch5 said:
Benoni said:
I think the reason you are having trouble with this is because most people do not take the context into account. This passage, John 6:44 was spoken to the Jews ( the only ones that Christ came to) and was spoken of the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. During that time God was preparing the Crucifixion, We have several quotes of the Jews being blinded. This blinding was done on purpose in order to bring about the Crucifixion.


This is total HOGWASH and based on your bias and assumption and not God’s Word, you do not like what the verse is saying so you are spinning it. By the way the Jews were only one of twelve tribes, Jesus came for the "Lost tribes of Israel" as I just posted.

Two more point seeing we are speaking of Abram' s seed, the Lost tribes of Israel.

The nation of Israel today, the one that was established in 1948 is the tribe of Judah (#4) and Benjamin (#12) known as the Jews; they are not all Israel but two tribes.

There were twelve tribes, the Bible had Benjamin and Joseph (11) born by Rachel the chosen bride, then their ten half brothers born by maid servants and their names were, Rueben(1), Simeon (2), Levi(3), Judah(4), Dan(5), Naphtali(6), Gad(7), Asher(8), Issachar(9) and Zebulun(10), this can be found in Genesis 29.

The twelve tribes under David and Solomon were one nation but later were separated in fact the name of the ten tribes during this separation was “Israel”. During the separation Judah and Benjamin were known as Judah. Israel; the northern ten tribes were later scattered and lost absorbed into many nations. Point being no one really knows where they are or who they are.

So your nation of Israel today is not Israel just two tribes known as Judah (Benjamin and Judah).

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel


Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


Notice the promise to Abram from God the numbers God promised his prophet in time. Genesis 32:12And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.


Genesis 22:16-18 (King James Version)
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore[/b]; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

How many millions of grains of sand can you put in your two hands at the sea shore; how many stars can you count on a cold winter day; and that only the ones you can see. Just think how many grains of sand in a dump truck? :D





What's your point. I did not say anyting of mdoern Israel. All I did was quote Christ.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Benoni said:
You are confusing two issues.


Man rejecting God (absolutely)
Man choosing God on his own freewill is what man cannot do until God first quickens/draws man.

Man rejects God, that is because man is spiritually dead as I pointed out. Carnal/religous man do not have the power of there own free will to choose God. If they do show me in scripture where man chooses his own salvation. Yes you showed me they reject God, I agree.

I already quoted the below. Adam had no choice and neither do we.





Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.
[sup][/sup]
Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.


Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.

I am not confusing things friend, you just seem to have so many different terms that are not in Scripture, as most Calvinists do. Please show me where Jesus or the apostles teach of rejecting God absolutely as opposed to rejecting Him any other way. The Scriptures you posted show that men choose to sin, no one is arguing that point. However, those passages do not state that man is incapable of doing good as you claim, they simply state that man does not do good. There is now mention made of ability. If you look at the context of Paul's quote you will find that the passages he quotes speak of the fool.

Psalms 14:1-7 ( KJV )
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.



Psalms 53:1-6 ( KJV )
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.
There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Notice the context, the fool hath said "no God". That my friend is a choice. God has made known His law and the fool hath said "no God". This is the context of the passages that Paul quotes. As I said this does not speak to man's ability so it does not support your doctrine of man's inability.