Grace is NOT unmerited favor!

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Here is why false teaching is dangerous;
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Unsaved men do not delight or serve the law of God.

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Paul in this passage of scripture I believe is describing his life as an unsaved individual... Until verse 25. Until then he was a wretched man, enslaved by the flesh and unable to obey the law. After salvation however, everything changes. While the flesh is still there, Paul now has power, through Jesus Christ our Lord, to serve the law of God, and in chapter 8 describes how to maintain the kind of walk... In the Spirit... That ensures victory.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

There is so much error being taught; Psalm 1 ;
Psalm 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

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I love that Psalm. Yet there are many who would claim it applies only to the Jews... It's old covenant etc etc etc.

CharismaticLady said:

Jesus frees us from sin - there is no getting around that. But there are others who want to justify their sin because their false teachers say we will always sin until the resurrection - a doctrine of demons to keep you sinning to your dying breath and be damned. Study chapter 8 and also 2 Corinthians 3:7-11.

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I am aware of the charismatic false teaching which is another version of antinomianism,

stay in chap7 first;

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Brakelite2 said:

Paul in this passage of scripture I believe is describing his life as an unsaved individual... Until verse 25. Until then he was a wretched man, enslaved by the flesh and unable to obey the law. After salvation however, everything changes. While the flesh is still there, Paul now has power, through Jesus Christ our Lord, to serve the law of God, and in chapter 8 describes how to maintain the kind of walk... In the Spirit... That ensures victory.

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Paul was a christian in both 7 and 8

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Paul was a christian in both 7 and 8

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But does not a sizable portion of chapter 7 reveal a man walking in the flesh unable to find the power to obey? For example, verses 14-16? He is saying he is carnal. Did you not say elsewhere there is no such thing as a carnal Christian?

Brakelite2 said:

I love that Psalm. Yet there are many who would claim it applies only to the Jews... It's old covenant etc etc etc.

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Exactly , that is what I meant when I said there is much false teaching out there.;
Two People - Two Paths - Two Destinys

sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=611141058562

Brakelite2 said:

But does not a sizable portion of chapter 7 reveal a man walking in the flesh unable to find the power to obey? For example, verses 14-16? He is saying he is carnal. Did you not say elsewhere there is no such thing as a carnal Christian?

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There is no "carnal christian".
Paul in vs14 is speaking of who he is, apart from Christ. He knows by himself he is ungodly.

watch him lead up to it, describing the "motions of sin"

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

There is so much error being taught; Psalm 1 ;

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Amen to that, so few know Christ. Can quote the bible from here to eternity but dont know there Bethroed.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

There is no "carnal christian".
Paul in vs14 is speaking of who he is, apart from Christ. He knows by himself he is ungodly.

watch him lead up to it, describing the "motions of sin"

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

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Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Seems many prefer another mans Husband the Law which was the Husband to the Jews. So many law keepers breaking the law through Adultry. we have A husband Christ.

1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Randy Kluth said:

"So *in effect* we are choosing to do good works all the time in order to qualify for Salvation.!

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This is nonsense. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No Person comes to Christ thinking about how to be a disciple. They come to Christ needing to be saved, Randy.

So, you put the cart ahead of the horse, which is the issue with what you are saying.

CharismaticLady said:

Strong's says only favor.

What does unmerited favor play out in ones life regarding SIN. To me, that definition is where the false doctrine of not only our past sins were taken away, but our present and future sins also, as if we still have the desire to commit them. That is twisted.

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Yes, I agree. The attitude you describe is twisted. The fact that a doctrine can be misunderstood and misapplied, however, does not mean the doctrine is false.

It happens that if God, by his grace, is saving someone, God will grace that individual with a desire to avoid sin and mourn sinfulness. I would say the person you describe has NOT been graced by God.

CharismaticLady said:

Paul is not identifying himself presently as a carnal Christian in Romans 7:14, because that struggle he speaks of is before Christ, not after. They are still under the Law of Moses.

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Yes, he identifies himself as a sinner. Ever notice that the verbs in Romans 7:14-20 are present tense verbs? Paul is NOT saying

I used to be a sinner
I used to in bondage to sin
I no longer do the thing I hate
Everything bad in me has been removed
I no longer practice the very evil I hated.

Take another look at the passage and see that Paul is talking about his current state of being. He does not talk about it in the past tense as if he is no longer a sinner.

Grace is where God shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions, so in that regard, it is unmerited. Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:6 - "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, not of ourselves it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Galatians 2:21 - "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Timothy 1:9 - "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

Yet God's grace (enabling power) operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.

CadyandZoe said:

Take another look at the passage and see that Paul is talking about his current state of being. He does not talk about it in the past tense as if he is no longer a sinner.

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However, look at Romans 7:5, for example:

Rom 7:5, For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

He refers to being a sinner in the past tense.

Or, how about Romans 5:8?

Rom 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

He refers to being a sinner as being in the past tense.

I am sure that there are also other scriptures that speak similarily.

CharismaticLady said:

Let me refresh your memory on my teaching on sin. (Take it, or leave it) I have thought a great deal about this and remember that night I was born again and what an instantaneous change in my desires occurred. Yet I was far from perfect. Sinlessness, and perfection are not the same thing, but both are attainable. Sinlessness is easiest.

First, 1 John 5:16-17 shows us there are two types of sins.
= Sins unto death.
= Sins not unto death.

I think the Catholic Church has it right in deeming these as mortal sins, and venial sins.

Sins unto death
1 John 3 is about "mortal" sins unto death called lawlessness. These are intentional with our full knowledge that these are against God's laws. I was in church for 30 years before I was filled with God's Spirit, and during that those 30 years I did commit mortal sins. I wasn't saved. But after that I didn't knowingly commit those rebellious sins of lawlessness. I couldn't. It was no longer in my nature.

Therefore:
Sins of lawlessness: zero (subtotal)

Second, sins not unto death.

The Old Testament is recorded to show us the nature of God and His ways. He allowed sacrifice for unintentional sins that Catholics would call venial sins. The Bible calls them trespasses. Leviticus 5:15. When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, the only type of "sin" to ask forgiveness for were trespasses. I expect because He would be giving us His power to keep us from committing mortal sins. After the Lord's Prayer in Matthew, the next verse is how we can be sinless in that area of our lives too. Forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive ad infinitum.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Also, going to bed with a clear conscience. Philippians 3:16 shows us that as we grow in the Lord, we are only accountable for the knowledge we have thus far. But we are expected to keep growing. 1 John 3:21-24 shows us that if your conscience is clear (and you've forgiven those who have trespassed against you) you have assurance of your salvation.

Therefore:
We have forgiven others their trespasses. Our trespasses: zero (subtotal)
Sins we still have no knowledge of: zero (subtotal)

Total: zero

PERFECTION:

2 Peter 1:5-7, 10-11
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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Okay, so if a Christian say, stubs their toe and a curse word comes out...veniel? Also, if a person denies doing really horrid stuff to you, and is avoiding you...can't forgive them face to face, nor can we forgive them if they do not own up to what they have done...I'm speaking of "christians".
Yeah, we can forgive without them being present and I have but, I want nothing to do with these people ever again and I sure hope that is not sin!

If I remember correctly from being raised Catholic...mortal sins are like, murder, blasphemy, and other violence towards another person. Are there other examples of Mortal sins?

The difference between sins, trans. tress. is what (IMO) need to be explained better.
Oh yes, what about those flitting thoughts that are not always "good" ones and you don't know where they come from cause you would never do or say anything like that thought ?

I'm really trying to understand it all because, I do NOT WANT to sin, ever.
Thank you for the insight, I do understand better where you are coming from.
God Bless

The only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; and even with that you are only in danger of eternal condemnation.

Mark 3:29 (kjv).

Mar 3:29, But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

There ought to be a hatred in the heart of every believer...a hatred of sin.

CharismaticLady said:

Good morning Anthony,

Antinomianism is the opposite of what I believe. They do not believe in laws of any kind, like @mjrhealth. Charismatics believe in a deeper law of pure righteousness from the Holy Spirit written on our hearts. It is deeper than the Law of Moses of Romans 7. Instead of the outward action of murder, the deeper law is the inner thoughts of hate. See it is the inward man that is born again, the core of us where sin originates that has been cleansed and redeemed. How can we love purely if our core still hates? Or lusts? Or covets? That is why Romans 8:2 shows a New Law, a New Covenant, the ministry of the Spirit. Romans 7, the Law of Moses was the ministry of death. "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death. Without sin in our core we establish the law of not to murder, because we would never get close to the action with love through the Spirit at our core. Romans 3:31

See here the difference between Romans 7 and Romans 8 by reading 2 Corinthians 3:7-11

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

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You continue to ignore the link giving correct teaching on Roman's 7, and substitute that which is false based on a mythical view of 2 core, another passage which you do not understand.

justbyfaith said:

However, look at Romans 7:5, for example:

Rom 7:5, For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

He refers to being a sinner in the past tense.

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Paul isn't talking about sin here. He is talking about being "in the flesh", which is a technical term he uses to indicate our humanity. In this context, he is talking about his life as a Jewish man, attempting to please God through devotion and diligent adherence to his religion. He makes a distinction between his former religious life and his new life in Christ, using the law about marriage as an analogy. He was "married" to the law as a means to find justification with God, but when the law died (as the means to justification), he was free to marry another, (faith in Jesus Christ as the means to justification.)

Or, how about Romans 5:8?

Rom 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

He refers to being a sinner as being in the past tense.
I am sure that there are also other scriptures that speak similarily.

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Yes, In Romans 5:8 he places being a sinner in the past tense along with the death of Christ on the cross. He points out that God didn't require anyone, including you or I, to stop sinning before Christ would die for us. This is an aspect of prevenient grace, which essentially means that God made the first move.

Think about enmity and reconciliation. If two people are mad at each other, the only way hostilities end in peace and amity is if one person makes a gesture of peace and lets it be known that peace is possible. The death of Christ becomes our reconciliation with God, who offered us peace while we were still his enemy.

To better the latter half of Romans 7, let's make a distinction between "sinner by nature" and "sinner by practice." In Romans chapter 6, Paul exhorts his readers to stop being "sinners by practice."

Romans 6:19
For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Paul says this knowing that we can do this. We can stop presenting our members as servants of impurity. We can start presenting our members in the service of righteousness.

Nonetheless, while it is possible for us to change our behavior, now that we are no longer slaves of sin; it is impossible for us to remake ourselves. We can't become a different creature. Even though we are no longer slaves of sin, we are still sinners by nature. We can change our nature and God hasn't changed our nature. Not Yet. We can stop being sinners by practice but we can't stop being sinners by nature. Those who want to be rid of sin altogether are hoping that God will keep his promise and do so.