intentional sins?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,715
2,412
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I was reading in one of the threads that sins are to be divided into categories, according to one poster. But I'm wondering how accurate these categories are? Not wanting to disturb an ongoing conversation I decided to bring my questions over here.

What really are the "unwitting" and "witting" sins that Leviticus talks about? For example...

Lev 5.“‘If anyone becomes aware that they are guilty—if they unwittingly touch anything ceremonially unclean (whether the carcass of an unclean animal, wild or domestic, or of any unclean creature that moves along the ground) and they are unaware that they have become unclean, but then they come to realize their guilt...

It seems to me this is just talking about being unaware of the ritual requirements of the Law or not. If you're aware of the ritual requirements, and do it anyway, you will be put to death as a rebel. The assumption here is being made that the one who "unwittingly" does certain things wrong would likely not have done those things had they known better, or would repent of them had they understood the full extent of what it meant.

For example, someone may be guilty of murder like David, who intentionally had a man put in a position to be killed. And yet he lacked full recognition of his guilt, because he did not recognize Nathan's story, indicating his guilt, and also because he did not personally have the man put to death, but rather, merely put him in a position to be killed.

And so, all categories of sin can be forgiven. But sin, when the sinner refuses to repent, shows that his intention is to oppose God, and incurs His judgment.

This poster also said we can be "sinless." That is really against the spirit of what the Apostle John said in 1 John 1. I don't know how someone can face 1 John 1 and still claim we can be "sinless?"

What I do believe, however, is that we can truly separate ourselves from the sin nature by choosing to live in the new nature Christ gave us. If we choose to remain in the old nature, and only do good works without a complete change of heart, we remain under the judgment of God, because we show that our intention is to oppose God, thus incurring His judgment.

Clearly, we can become "completely sanctified" in the sense of choosing to live in the "new nature of Christ." But even in this we cannot become "sinless" and "perfect." This is a complete misreading of the theology of sanctification.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cristo Rei

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For example, someone may be guilty of murder like David, who intentionally had a man put in a position to be killed. And yet he lacked full recognition of his guilt, because he did not recognize Nathan's story, indicating his guilt, and also because he did not personally have the man put to death, but rather, merely put him in a position to be killed.

David was absolutely guilty of murder; and did in fact recognize that he was the culprit after Nathan told him, "Thou art the man!"

But even in this we cannot become "sinless" and "perfect." This is a complete misreading of the theology of sanctification.

We can indeed become perfect (Hebrews 10:14); although I would say that sinless is out of the question because of 1 John 1:8.

If we say that we have no sin...

All of us have sin dwelling in our mortal flesh.

But we don't have to live by it because it can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6-7, Romans 7:8, Galatians 5:24).

The perfect "saint" is the Christian who has utterly crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,441
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
This poster also said we can be "sinless." .


Are you born again, or are you just water baptized?
They are not the same.

So, readers, here is a question for you if you are born again..
What sin did the blood of Jesus NOT pay for, today, and tomorrow, and forever, if you are born again ???
See, you either understand that Jesus became ALL your sin and you became His Righteousness, or you have not even begun to yet understand "GRACE", = the Grace of God.

So, another question... Is there Sin in Christ?
Is there SIN IN CHRIST?
No there is not. And are the born again "IN CHRIST"?
Are the born again = "The righteousness of God, IN CHRIST"?
YES THEY ARE !
If you had any sin, could you be a part of God's family RIGHT NOW?
NOPE.

Have you ever read Romans 4:8 that says that God does not charge you for any sin you commit after you are saved?
= NOPE.
Because if you had read this, or been taught this as you should have been the first week you were saved, you would not be wasting your Christian Life trying to repent and confess your way back into salvation every week.
See, you believe wrong and that is why you live wrong.
You've had really bad teaching, and that is why you have really bad theology and no understanding of who you are "in Christ".

See, there is a harmful false theology that says...>""well, im saved and then i sin, and until i repent im lost or im out of fellowship with God, until i put myself back by my self effort".
And that is not related to Salvation. That thinking is not related to Grace. Its only related to self righteousness.

Salvation is.....that Christ became your sin on the cross and DIED, and you became His Righteousness and now have ETERNAL LIFE.
So, how Righteous.... how HOLY..... is Christ's righteousness? ??? = Its just as HOLY AS GOD.
And if you are born again you have the same righteousness. "The Gift of Righteousness". The born again are "The righteousness of GOD...IN CHRIST".
This is "the GIFT of Righteousness". This is why God took you as His, and accepted you when you Trusted in Christ and were born again.
See, He gave you HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS so that HE COULD TAKE YOU Into His HOLY HEAVENLY family.
Thats why you are born again. That is what it means to be a "new CREATION IN CHRIST".
Your spirit is born again, by God's Spirit, INTO GOD's, Spirit.
You are , "ONE" with God and Christ, if you are born again.

You've been told you are a "saved sinner" by people who should not be teaching or preaching. They should be out of the ministry. They lied to you, all of your life. They teach a bible that is closed to them. They read verses that they can't discern. They are wells without water. They are clouds that never rain.

Listen.. Who does God say you are?
He says you are ....

Saint
An Heir of God
A Joint heir with Christ
The Body of Christ
Brethren
Son of GOD
Child of the LIGHT
Redeemed
Born again
Blood Bought
Bride of Christ
Temple of the Holy Spirit

See all that? That is how GOD esteems you. THAT IS YOU, in God's perspective if you are born again.
And you dont see yourself as any of that because you have been lied to all your Christian Life by people who are DECEIVED.
And they've caused you to be also, if you see yourself as a "sinner", who is supposed to be repenting and confessing and living a failed Christian life, that is exactly that if that if what you are doing.



 
Last edited:

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,715
2,412
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you born again, or are you just water baptized?
They are not the same.


Nobody said they were. You are arguing with a ghost! ;)

You've been told you are a "saved sinner" by people who should not be teaching or preaching. They should be out of the ministry. They lied to you, all of your life. They teach a bible that is closed to them. They read verses that they can't discern. They are wells without water. They are clouds that never rain.

Actually, it's *you* who are misleading others about what the Bible says.
1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Listen.. Who does God say you are?
He says you are ....

Saint
An Heir of God
A Joint heir with Christ
The Body of Christ
Brethren
Son of GOD
Child of the LIGHT
Redeemed
Born again
Blood Bought
Bride of Christ
Temple of the Holy Spirit

See all that? That is how GOD esteems you. THAT IS YOU, in God's perspective if you are born again.
And you dont see yourself as any of that because you have been lied to all your Christian Life by people who are DECEIVED.
And they've caused you to be also, if you see yourself as a "sinner", who is supposed to be repenting and confessing and living a failed Christian life, that is exactly that if that if what you are doing.

It is *not* a "failed Christian life" to recognize that we are "saved sinners." We are not perfect. We have not yet arrived, just as Paul said he had not yet arrived. In humility Paul admitted he was the least worthy among the apostles. He said this, not referring to how he was before he was saved, but how he at that time was. His carnal nature was still with him, even though he regularly overcame it.

If you don't understand the presence of sin in your life, and its tendencies and temptations, you haven't gotten very far in your Christianity. And you definitely would then not be qualified to be a teacher of any merit. Sorry, when you point the finger, three point back at you, which is an indication that yes, you have to join the rest of us as "saved sinners!" ;)
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,792
7,732
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I was reading in one of the threads that sins are to be divided into categories, according to one poster. But I'm wondering how accurate these categories are? Not wanting to disturb an ongoing conversation I decided to bring my questions over here.

What really are the "unwitting" and "witting" sins that Leviticus talks about? For example...

Lev 5.“‘If anyone becomes aware that they are guilty—if they unwittingly touch anything ceremonially unclean (whether the carcass of an unclean animal, wild or domestic, or of any unclean creature that moves along the ground) and they are unaware that they have become unclean, but then they come to realize their guilt...

It seems to me this is just talking about being unaware of the ritual requirements of the Law or not. If you're aware of the ritual requirements, and do it anyway, you will be put to death as a rebel. The assumption here is being made that the one who "unwittingly" does certain things wrong would likely not have done those things had they known better, or would repent of them had they understood the full extent of what it meant.

For example, someone may be guilty of murder like David, who intentionally had a man put in a position to be killed. And yet he lacked full recognition of his guilt, because he did not recognize Nathan's story, indicating his guilt, and also because he did not personally have the man put to death, but rather, merely put him in a position to be killed.

And so, all categories of sin can be forgiven. But sin, when the sinner refuses to repent, shows that his intention is to oppose God, and incurs His judgment.

This poster also said we can be "sinless." That is really against the spirit of what the Apostle John said in 1 John 1. I don't know how someone can face 1 John 1 and still claim we can be "sinless?"

What I do believe, however, is that we can truly separate ourselves from the sin nature by choosing to live in the new nature Christ gave us. If we choose to remain in the old nature, and only do good works without a complete change of heart, we remain under the judgment of God, because we show that our intention is to oppose God, thus incurring His judgment.

Clearly, we can become "completely sanctified" in the sense of choosing to live in the "new nature of Christ." But even in this we cannot become "sinless" and "perfect." This is a complete misreading of the theology of sanctification.

The whole Hebrew economy centred around the Tabernacle and the requirements of the people. These things in turn were figures or shadows of the great plan of redemption. Any violations where an affront because of what they represented.
Not seen in this light much of what is written of this era seems arbitrary.
Understanding the role of the various laws or categories of laws gives perspective. Without understanding these texts are violated by the ignorant and those peddling foreign agendas.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,715
2,412
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The whole Hebrew economy centred around the Tabernacle and the requirements of the people. These things in turn were figures or shadows of the great plan of redemption. Any violations where an affront because of what they represented.
Not seen in this light much of what is written of this era seems arbitrary.
Understanding the role of the various laws or categories of laws gives perspective. Without understanding these texts are violated by the ignorant and those peddling foreign agendas.

Sounds reasonable to me! I do think that beyond their shadowy inference of the need for final redemption the Law did have practical value in the sense that God did invest in these things the properties of forgiveness and favor that ultimately became invested in Christ. So they had all the value of living as a child of God, save the ability to have the hope of resurrection.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no impartation of life that comes from the law or from keeping the law (Galatians 3:21).
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
There is no impartation of life that comes from the law or from keeping the law (Galatians 3:21).
In fact it only brings one thing.

Rom_7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Do you think Adam might have saved his skin if he had heeded God's command?
He only had one, do not eat from that tree its not good for you, as for Gods laws, pray tell me what good have they done, look at this lovely God less world we live in. filled with countless pages of laws, and countless crime and acts of violence, did someone mention pushing there agendas.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,715
2,412
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no impartation of life that comes from the law or from keeping the law (Galatians 3:21).

I think we have different applications of the word "life?" When the Bible speaks of "life" in the NT, it is often speaking of Eternal life, or of the righteous life we receive through the Spirit from Christ.

But I'm talking about *enablement." What enables a person to obey God's commandments? The argument here is that Man cannot do any good, ie "total depravity," is hopelessly devoid of all righteousness, unless he is brought into NT truth. Obviously, that's false because OT saints did obey God's commandments.

So the Scriptures are only saying that men could not obtain Eternal Life apart from NT truth. In this sense they couldn't obtain "life," ie Eternal Life. Obedience to the Law was perfectly legitimate in the OT era, but it could not bring about Eternal Life until Christ came and provided redemption from sin.

Under the Law redemption from sin was fleeting. It was just a moment to moment thing, forgiveness until the next sin became evident. It was obvious that sin could never really go away, no matter how much righteousness, no matter how much obedience was demonstrated. The Sin Nature remained within man, including in the OT. But Christ had to come and provide final redemption for it in order to remove its consequences for all time.

However, *enablement* to obey God's commandments, or virtue, was indeed available under the Law, or in the OT era. God's word contained within it the enablement for men to obey that word.

Cain, for example, could've obeyed God and not murdered Abel, when jealousy was overtaking him. Gods word has within it the virtue to obey it, well before Christ came to bring Eternal Life to men.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The argument here is that Man cannot do any good, ie "total depravity," is hopelessly devoid of all righteousness, unless he is brought into NT truth.

This is absolutely true, see Jeremiah 17:9.

That verse declares the state of the unregenerated person' heart.

Of course, NT righteousness can come through means of Ezekiel 36:25-27 unto having a Luke 8:15 heart.

Obedience to the Law was perfectly legitimate in the OT era, but it could not bring about Eternal Life until Christ came and provided redemption from sin.

The only life that could possibly given through keeping the law would be if the person kept the law perfectly from conception into eternity (see Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

Cain, for example, could've obeyed God and not murdered Abel,

Except that he had within him a sin nature that made him inclined towards murdering his brother in a situation where jealousy would arise to the height of sin.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think Adam might have saved his skin if he had heeded God's command?
Adam already had life when he was faced with the decision of whether or not to eat the fruit. In partaking, he brought upon himself spiritual death.

So then, in obeying the Lord's command, Adam would not have obtained life; while he would have in fact retained the life that was already given to him.

This is not to say that in our own Christian lives, we retain our salvation by obeying the commandments. We retain our salvation by keeping the faith (Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:1-3, Colossians 2:6). And in keeping the faith we stay obedient to the Lord's commands. But if I were to violate a command while retaining faith in Jesus, technically I would not lose my salvation. I would only lose it if I ran out of faith.

For it is by the invisible principle of faith that, before God, we find justification and life.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,792
7,732
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
He only had one, do not eat from that tree its not good for you, as for Gods laws, pray tell me what good have they done, look at this lovely God less world we live in. filled with countless pages of laws, and countless crime and acts of violence, did someone mention pushing there agendas.
You fault God's Laws as did Satan while man's unwillingness to keep them, nay, his desire to break them is dismissed.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,792
7,732
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Adam already had life when he was faced with the decision of whether or not to eat the fruit. In partaking, he brought upon himself spiritual death.

So then, in obeying the Lord's command, Adam would not have obtained life; while he would have in fact retained the life that was already given to him.

This is not to say that in our own Christian lives, we retain our salvation by obeying the commandments. We retain our salvation by keeping the faith (Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:1-3, Colossians 2:6). And in keeping the faith we stay obedient to the Lord's commands. But if I were to violate a command while retaining faith in Jesus, technically I would not lose my salvation. I would only lose it if I ran out of faith.

For it is by the invisible principle of faith that, before God, we find justification and life.
Can faith be independent and removed from keeping God's Commandments?
If it is it is not faith but presumption.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can faith be independent and removed from keeping God's Commandments?
If it is it is not faith but presumption.
However, in order to keep sound doctrine, we proclaim that it is faith and not keeping the commandments that saves us and keeps us saved.

For it is clear from such passages as Galatians 2:16 that law-keeping does not save us.

Therefore, we are saved by faith in Jesus and this indeed does result in abiding in Him which leads us not to sin; or not to violate the law (1 John 3:6).

But it is not the abstention from sinning which saves us but it is our faith that causes that abstention from sinning, that is salvational to our lives.

For if I begin to trust in my obedience to save me, I may forget that I have been saved through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Now having been redeemed by that blood, obedience is the sure result.

But the moment I begin to trust in my obedience, I will surely begin to fall in order that my trust might be in the Cross.

God will not sustain the one who is trusting in his own obedience to save him; He will only sustain the one who is trusting wholly in the Cross.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,792
7,732
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
However, in order to keep sound doctrine, we proclaim that it is faith and not keeping the commandments that saves us and keeps us saved.

For it is clear from such passages as Galatians 2:16 that law-keeping does not save us.

Therefore, we are saved by faith in Jesus and this indeed does result in abiding in Him which leads us not to sin; or not to violate the law (1 John 3:6).

But it is not the abstention from sinning which saves us but it is our faith that causes that abstention from sinning, that is salvational to our lives.

For if I begin to trust in my obedience to save me, I may forget that I have been saved through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Now having been redeemed by that blood, obedience is the sure result.

But the moment I begin to trust in my obedience, I will surely begin to fall in order that my trust might be in the Cross.

God will not sustain the one who is trusting in his own obedience to save him; He will only sustain the one who is trusting wholly in the Cross.
If we set ourselves against God's Law we set ourselves against God.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If we set ourselves against God's Law we set ourselves against God.
We have victory over sin because of having been set free from the law (see 1 Corinthians 15:56-57).

Don't get me wrong; I am all about preaching the law as a schoolmaster to bring men to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

However, once faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:25).
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You fault God's Laws as did Satan while man's unwillingness to keep them, nay, his desire to break them is dismissed.
Worse are those who deceive the people by saying they keep them, remember what happened to Ananias,

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

So many people think they can do better than Jesus.