Do you think your god is just?

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TheGreat0ne

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If so, consider this:-You believe that god is omniscient-You believe that god is omnipotent-You believe that god has laid out a strict set of morals-You believe that god will eternally punish those who do not follow his morals and do not ask forgiveness for them through jesus-To justify this, you create a thing called "free will", to make it seem as though it is OK for god to do this-You believe that god created everythingTherefore:-You must believe that god determined each human being's initial conditions (any genetic predispositions and that sort of thing) knowing how these would affect the person-You must believe that god determined each human being's environment-Since humans ultimately make their decisions solely based on their initial conditions and their environments, god determines our decisions-Since god determines our decisions, he eternally punishes people when they cannot be placed at fault for their decisions-You must believe that god is unjust if you believe him to be omniscient, omnipotent, and the sole creator.
 

betchevy

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Great... your premise is based solely on this time and place....as if the earth didn't exist along with all souls millions of years ago.. What is happening here is based on principles and laws set in place during the first age of heaven and earth. If your perspective is not evelated to understand why God created this age and put the souls of men into flesh bodies, then certainly you could missunderstand God's intention and control. I will be praying for you and will be glad to share with you the true Word of God as it is written in the original language. If you desire it, for I don't want to force any thing on you , but if you really would like to understand, I would love to help you.
 

Christina

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The soul is the real you without your physical body that part of you that is connected to God, without any need or desire of earthly things or confined to a physical body. The Bible tells us to be absent (dead) from the body is to be present with the lord.I agree with what Betchevy is saying here you are assuming free will is confined to the physical body it is not. All souls are adults (no baby's) approxamately of age 30 before you were born into this human condition you had a free will to take part in deciding what conditions you were born into, what adversities you wanted/needed to overcome. You can use your human brain and mouth to curse your human condition, but the fact is that God didn't put you in this condition without your souls willingness to be there.It then becomes our responsibilty to overcome our adverse conditions,you just have to remember you are never alone in doing this God is always by your side to help you all you need do ask with your whole heart.
 

TheGreat0ne

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How does that make any sense whatsoever? What kind of a soul would decide to put itself into an Ethiopian baby? Nonetheless, it has absolutely no effect on my argument. God must have created these souls and everything that would affect the souls' decisions regarding the conditions they're born in to and the adversities they wanted to overcome. The addition of more mysterious factors doesn't hurt my argument.
 

Fox

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(Firstly - Wow, that has to be one of the most poorly thought out straw men arguments ever.)To the crux - G-d has often tried to impress on man the crucial principle that every effect has a cause. But we have difficulty grasping this truth, so we continue to suffer the debilitating effects of our transgressions. We can trace many tragedies and much suffering to our own all-too-human actions and decisions. In a world of freedom of choice, some choices inevitably lead to harmful and painful results. Actions yield consequences. Many people recognize the saying "You reap what you sow," but they do not realize that it comes from the Bible (Galatians 6:6-7). Thousands of years ago one of the friends of Job - no stranger to suffering - observed that "those who plow iniquity and sow trouble reap the same" (Job 4:8).When we analyze the phenomenon of suffering, we can learn much if we will trace the circumstances back to their cause. Proverbs 22:3 warns us to consider the long-term consequences of our actions: "A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself, but the simple pass on and are punished." When we look for the main causes of suffering, we often need look no further than ourselves - the decisions and actions of individuals and humanity as a whole. In one way or another sin is usually the underlying cause, and suffering is the effect. Nations and individuals suffer many miseries because of ignorance of and disobedience to the same spiritual laws of G-d that Israel disobeyed. G-d’s commandments are living laws, with universal application, providing benefits for obedience and punishments for disobedience. His inspired Word tells us that those who love His law have "great peace" (Psalm 119:165), but the way of the lawless and unfaithful is difficult (Proverbs 13:15). The Bible points to many agonizing human experiences that are direct results of sin. One such example is military aggression. The apostle James wrote of the origin of armed conflict: "Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war" (James 4:1-2).These words apply to nations as well as individuals, since nations are simply groups of people looking out for their own interests. Aggressors go to war out of a desire to enhance their power, prestige and wealth. In so doing they thrust aside law, ethics, morality and peace. They kill and maim to further their ends, putting into practice the might-makesright principle and the maxim that to the victor belongs the spoils. Will Durant understood this human tendency when he wrote: "The causes of war are the same as the causes of competition among individuals: acquisitiveness, pugnacity, and pride; the desire for food, land, materials, fuels, mastery" (The Lessons of History, 1968p. 81). Ironically, nations that freely choose violence, including warfare, often inherit a fate similar to that of the countries they crush. Yeshua understood this when He said: "...All who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matthew 26:52).History is a chronicle of the succession of empires conquering and being conquered. Mankind is doomed to repeat the cycle as long as disobedience to G-d remains its chosen way. Many forms of suffering are simply the inevitable consequences of personal decisions. For example, in many advanced nations pockets of poverty persist in spite of billions of tax dollars expended to combat the problem. Often that poverty can be traced to individual decisions. Students drop out of school, cutting short their education and consigning themselves to lifetimes of difficult jobs, low wages, financial hardship and frustrated ambitions. Many teenagers become sexually active, with millions of girls giving birth out of wedlock to children who may never see their fathers. Studies have shown that children abandoned by their fathers are far more likely at an early age to turn to drugs, drink and tobacco, adopt criminal behavior and become sexually promiscuous in their own turn, bringing suffering on themselves and others. Many young mothers - often unmarried because the fathers ran from responsibility - find themselves trapped in low-paying jobs with young mouths to feed and forced to rely on handouts, usually from the government or charities, to survive. The pattern repeats itself in a cycle of poverty spanning generations - usually because of shortsighted personal choices and actions.Untold health problems plague us because of our individual decisions. We eat poorly, fail to exercise, consume harmful substances and carelessly injure ourselves and others in accidents. Many suffer from mental afflictions as a result of violating the principles governing relationships that the Bible clearly spells out. Physical and psychological problems result from the abuse of alcohol and other drugs. Such abusers not only risk taking years off their own lives, but their habits exact a huge toll on their families and friends. Even more tragically, many abusers are involved in accidents that cripple or take the lives of innocent bystanders. The physical harm caused by smoking is solidly documented. Smoking-related illnesses take 400,000 lives each year in the United States and millions more worldwide. Many of those deaths are excruciatingly painful and slow. We readily acknowledge that the best cure for the grief caused by smoking is simply to quit, yet many are so addicted they spurn this obvious solution.Smoking is but one of many behaviors that cause pain. Dr. Paul Martin notes that instances of seemingly innocuous behavior can add up over time: "There are plenty of commonplace behaviour patterns that kill people gradually but in huge numbers" (The Healing Mind, 1997, p. 58). Often when we make unwise health decisions our bodies alert us that we have made a bad choice. Paul Brand and Philip Yancey observe that "an astounding proportion of the health problems stem from behavior choices that show disregard for the body’s clear signals" (The Gift Nobody Wants, 1993, p. 226). Dr. Brand reportedthat, at a major national health conference, he began a list of the serious behavior-related health problems on the agenda that take a serious toll on Americans' health. They include "heart disease and hypertension exacerbated by stress, stomach ulcers, cancers associated with a toxic environment, AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases, emphysema and lung cancer caused by cigarette smoking, fetal damage stemming from maternal alcohol and drug abuse, diabetes and other diet-related disorders, violent crime, automobile accidents invoking alcohol. These were the endemic, even epidemic concerns for health experts in the United States" (Brand and Yancey, pp. 226-227).The conclusion should be obvious. Much suffering is caused by wrong choices. The Bible offers guidance as to how we should live. Yet as far back as Adam and Chava we have repeatedly spurned G-d's instruction and brought enormous pain and sorrow on ourselves. The Bible offers practical advice on virtually all aspects of life. Many of its principles reveal how to avoid - and to some extent relieve - suffering. We cannot live substantially free from suffering until we reconcile to G-d and His commandments. "My son, do not forget my Law, but let your heart keep my commands; for length of days and long life and peace they will add to you" (Proverbs 3:1-2, ). Were we to follow G-d's instructions on an international scale, we would see immediate and drastic reductions in crime, disease, hostilities between nations, pollution, accidents, mental illness, broken families, shattered relationships and many other phenomena that cause us grief. G-d's Law is not harsh or onerously restrictive. It is a law of liberty (James 1:25) that would eliminate most of the world’s pain if it were universally obeyed.
 

TheGreat0ne

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That's all well and good, but you've missed my point, which is that you must believe that god makes our decisions for us if you believe him to be omniscient, omnipotent, and the sole creator.Assume, for a moment, you program robots. You program the robot to interact in its environment by taking in data and then compute the data using the software you wrote to deal with that data. Now, assume you are a perfect coder (you know exactly what your program will do given any type of data it reads in) and you know exactly what environment your robot will be in. You then say to your robot, "Do no evil", despite knowing that he will make evil decisions based on the code you gave him and the environment you will put him in. Who is at fault if the robot does evil? Humans act no differently from robots in any way. Our decisions are made in our brains, and are the result of chemical reactions that will produce the same result every time given the exact same input, just as a robot will always make the same decision given the exact same series of input. Now, I realize that it is effectively impossible to give a human the exact same input twice, but if you think about it, it's irrelevant so don't complain.
 

Christina

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I can read your post fine foxtheG8oneYou seem to not understand that when in the spirit you realize the physical body is nothing but a vessel to house the soul the death of the physical body is not the end. It is the condition of the soul that matters if your soul is right with God the death of the body is of little import, God says fear not the death of the body(first death)fear the death of your soul(second death)
 

TheGreat0ne

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You seem to not understand the very point of my argument. Read it over again and again until it clicks in your head.
 

HammerStone

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No offense bud, but you guys always end up carrying the same argument regardless of how it's expressed. I appreciate that you have the confidence to call yourself "TheGreat0ne" and run around on Christian forums (a little research shows CB to not be the only place you're posting at currently) trying to convince all us evil Christians to follow your logic in such a condescending tone. I have a question for you...Why would God create God? [Your argument, the same as all the others, implies that a truly "perfect God" (as defined by your terms) would not create a world in which there is error, pain, suffering and so forth. By that logic, someone would have to literally be God to be perfect since he'd obviously have to know ahead of time so that he could make the right decision.] We can play philosophy all day long but it comes down to either you believe or you don't. I've found those who don't believe generally run on a different line of logic than others. Each unto there own. If you're here soley to argue, this isn't the place to be.
 

Fox

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(TheGreat0ne;7208)
That's all well and good, but you've missed my point, which is that you must believe that god makes our decisions for us if you believe him to be omniscient, omnipotent, and the sole creator.
Reading that makes me ready to plotz lol!YOU'VE missed mine - our choices are ours. G-d DOESN'T make our decisions for us. Being omniscient and omnipotent doesn't have anything to do with our decisions.
Humans act no differently from robots in any way. Our decisions are made in our brains, and are the result of chemical reactions that will produce the same result every time given the exact same input, just as a robot will always make the same decision given the exact same series of input.
LoL - but we aren't robots, this is where your reasoning fails. If this were the case, why can we not predict the actions of two individuals exposed to the exact same stimulus? People do not respond identically when exposed to the same "input" which disproves your entire line of argument. Example, I walk past a car with a purse on the seat. I keep walking. Next person passes by and sees exactly what I see - he smashes the window and steals the purse.Your logic is flawed, my friend
smile.gif
Hey, try this one, its just as valid and just as meaningless - If G-d is omnipotent, could He make a bowl of porridge too large for Him to eat?
 

TheGreat0ne

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Why would God create God?
That's not hard to answer. God would create god because he would want to exist if he did not exist. Of course, that doesn't make logical sense, but neither does the question.
[Your argument, the same as all the others, implies that a truly "perfect God" (as defined by your terms) would not create a world in which there is error, pain, suffering and so forth. By that logic, someone would have to literally be God to be perfect since he'd obviously have to know ahead of time so that he could make the right decision.]
Incorrect. He would find a way to keep all of his creations happy while allowing them the freedom to live their lives as they wanted.
I've found those who don't believe generally run on a different line of logic than others.
Yes, some choose logic that makes sense, and others choose logic that would make sense if it were possible to break every established logical rule.
If you're here soley to argue, this isn't the place to be.
Actually, I'm here just to cause trouble. I hope that's not a problem.
 

tomwebster

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.... We can play philosophy all day long but it comes down to either you believe or you don't. I've found those who don't believe generally run on a different line of logic than others. Each unto there own. If you're here soley to argue, this isn't the place to be.
Amen! SwampFox Amen!
 

TheGreat0ne

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YOU'VE missed mine - our choices are ours. G-d DOESN'T make our decisions for us. Being omniscient and omnipotent doesn't have anything to do with our decisions.
I haven't missed yours. Yours is simply irrelevant. If an omniscient, omnipotent sole creator creates something, he will know exactly how it will react to the rest of his creation, and since he is perfect, it will act exactly as he intends for it to act. Therefore, if I sin, god intended for me to sin.
LoL - but we aren't robots, this is where your reasoning fails. If this werre the case, why can we not predict the actions of two individuals exposed to the exact same stimulus? People do not respond identically when exposed to the same "input" which disproves your entire line of argument. Example, I walk past a car with a purse on the seat. I keep walking. Next person passes by and sees exactly what I see - he smashes the window and steals the purse.Your logic is flawed, my friend
Or you're just a blatant moron and ignored the fact that you and another person don't share the same character traits, which I very plainly stated are the other part of the decision making process. If someone with absolutely identical traits to you walked by that same car, he would behave just as you did.Also, your next two lines aren't funny. Try again later.
 

HammerStone

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Just wanted to make something clear here. You've not been banned because you're an atheist. You've been banned because you decided to insult Christians as a whole alongside members of this community, and that really speaks loads about what you say; someone who cares doesn't insult those who don't agree with them. Thread closed.
 
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