GENTILES NOT IN THE BODY OF CHRIST

Doug · Jun 2, 2020

justbyfaith said:
The church is the body of Christ.

Col 1:18, And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Yes the church formed in this dispensation is the body of Christ according to the revelations of Jesus Christ given to Paul.

Doug · Jun 2, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
Matt. 16:19 is talking about CHRIST'S CHURCH:
"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

The church of God is Christ's church.
The church of God consists of Jews who believed the gospel of the kingdom and received Jesus as Messiah and Son of God. Gentiles could be blessed by believing as well. Gentiles had to come through Israel.
The body of Christ reveals the church as his body and Christ our head. Gentiles did not have to come through Israel and the covenants or the law.

Doug · Jun 2, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
John 17:20:23 is about the UNITY of about CHRIST'S CHURCH:
“I pray not only for them, BUT ALSO FOR THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE ME THROUGH THEIR WORD, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.m And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

Jesus was praying for the twelve disciples and the believing remnant of Israel who would believe their word.

Doug · Jun 2, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
Acts 8:3 is about Saul (Paul) persecuting the very same CHRIST'S CHURCH:
Saul, meanwhile, was trying to destroy THE CHURCH; entering house after house and dragging out men and women, he handed them over for imprisonment.

In 1 Cor. 12:27-28, Paul refers to this SAME “CHURCH” as the “BODY OF CHRIST”.
"Now you are the BODY OF CHRIST, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the CHURCH first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues."

The church that Paul was persecuting was the church of God not the body of Christ.
The body of Christ was only revealed in this dispensation to Paul. It is a new man, in which there is neither Jew or Gentile. Gentiles were separated before that.

justbyfaith · Jun 2, 2020

Doug said:
Yes the church formed in this dispensation is the body of Christ according to the revelations of Jesus Christ given to Paul.

And as I said, the word of the Lord is timeless.

Heart2Soul · Jun 2, 2020

Doug said:
Acts 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

As can be seen in Acts 2:10 there were proselytes, strangers to Israel, Gentiles, who trusted in God and followed the law. Some of the Gentiles may have been proselytes that believed the gospel preached by Peter and the disciples. They were not in the body of Christ since at this time Paul was not saved and given revelation; the body of Christ was not being formed at this time, the believers were in Christ and the Church of God.

Hello @Doug.....your intention may be right but there is no truth in it...remember EVERYTHING concerning God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit must be interpreted with a spiritual mind....the carnal mind is enmity against God...the carnal mind tries to reason things out in the flesh....can't do that with His Word...and in Heaven we will all be the same.

BreadOfLife · Jun 2, 2020

Doug said:
The church of God is Christ's church.
The church of God consists of Jews who believed the gospel of the kingdom and received Jesus as Messiah and Son of God. Gentiles could be blessed by believing as well. Gentiles had to come through Israel.
The body of Christ reveals the church as his body and Christ our head. Gentiles did not have to come through Israel and the covenants or the law.

Doug said:
Jesus was praying for the twelve disciples and the believing remnant of Israel who would believe their word.

Doug said:
The church that Paul was persecuting was the church of God not the body of Christ.
The body of Christ was only revealed in this dispensation to Paul. It is a new man, in which there is neither Jew or Gentile. Gentiles were separated before that.

WRONG again.

In John 3, when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, we read:
John 3:16
“For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

WHOEVER - not just the Jews.
WHOEVER is included in the Church he built (Matt. 16:18).
WHOEVER is included in the Church He prayed for in John 17:20-23.

[We do not insult one another on threads]
Christ's Church and His BODY are not the same had been proven wrong SEVERAL times now. Here is one more juicy example . . .

In Acts 9:4-5, Jesus equates his Body – the Church - with his very self:
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” (which is EXACTLY what Paul was doing).
Jesus chose to equate the church with Himself - His very OWN Body.
You LOSE again . . .

You're beating a dead horse to a pulp because you refuse to admit when you're WRONG . . .

Doug · Jun 3, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
In John 3, when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, we read:
John 3:16
“For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

WHOEVER - not just the Jews.
WHOEVER is included in the Church he built (Matt. 16:18).
WHOEVER is included in the Church He prayed for in John 17:20-23.

John 3:16 is in the context of Jesus being sent to be saviour. There is nothing in the context of the verse to say that the cross was yet in view. Israel was to believe only in his name at this time as can be seen in John 3:18. The Gentiles could believe as well; Gentiles could always be blessed through Israel. The church he built would indeed include all those who believed on his name.

Doug · Jun 3, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
In Acts 9:4-5, Jesus equates his Body – the Church - with his very self:
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” (which is EXACTLY what Paul was doing).
Jesus chose to equate the church with Himself - His very OWN Body.

To say that what Jesus said equates to him referencing the church as the body of Christ is dubious. What would be more in keeping with the meaning of what Jesus said would be to relate what he said to the following verses:
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

OzSpen · Jun 4, 2020

Doug said:
Acts 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

As can be seen in Acts 2:10 there were proselytes, strangers to Israel, Gentiles, who trusted in God and followed the law. Some of the Gentiles may have been proselytes that believed the gospel preached by Peter and the disciples. They were not in the body of Christ since at this time Paul was not saved and given revelation; the body of Christ was not being formed at this time, the believers were in Christ and the Church of God.

Doug,

That's strange theology in my view. It didn't take Paul's teaching to determine who were in or out of the body of Christ.

If I take your line of reasoning, what happens to those who died in Christ and will be resurrected one day (1 Cor 15) did not apply to pre-Pauline believers.

This is theology from the mind of Doug.

Oz

Doug · Jun 4, 2020

OzSpen said:
Doug,

That's strange theology in my view. It didn't take Paul's teaching to determine who were in or out of the body of Christ.

If I take your line of reasoning, what happens to those who died in Christ and will be resurrected one day (1 Cor 15) did not apply to pre-Pauline believers.

This is theology from the mind of Doug.

Oz

The church of God has to be rightly divided.

The church of God that Paul persecuted is made up of those believers (Jew and Gentile) who believed on the name of Jesus and believed the gospel of the kingdom, the prophetic kingdom on earth. They are in Christ.

In the dispensation of grace the church of God is the body of Christ, revealed through Paul, the church where the Jew and Gentile has become one new man and will be in heavenly places. The body of Christ was not formed before this dispensation. They too are in Christ.

As far as the resurrection, both churches of God have part in the first resurrection. This resurrection is in two parts:
1st part of the resurrection; the dead in Christ in the body of Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) then we who are alive in the body (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The body of Christ will be risen to take position in the heavenly places.
2nd part of the resurrection; The believers in the church of God in Christ before this dispensation of grace, the tribulation saints, and the old testament saints, will be resurrected to enter the kingdom on earth.

OzSpen · Jun 4, 2020

Doug said:
The church of God has to be rightly divided.

The church of God that Paul persecuted is made up of those believers (Jew and Gentile) who believed on the name of Jesus and believed the gospel of the kingdom, the prophetic kingdom on earth. They are in Christ.

In the dispensation of grace the church of God is the body of Christ, revealed through Paul, the church where the Jew and Gentile has become one new man and will be in heavenly places. The body of Christ was not formed before this dispensation. They too are in Christ.

As far as the resurrection, both churches of God have part in the first resurrection. This resurrection is in two parts:
1st part of the resurrection; the dead in Christ in the body of Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) then we who are alive in the body (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The body of Christ will be risen to take position in the heavenly places.
2nd part of the resurrection; The believers in the church of God in Christ before this dispensation of grace, the tribulation saints, and the old testament saints, will be resurrected to enter the kingdom on earth.

You didn't respond to the content of what I wrote.

Doug · Jun 5, 2020

OzSpen said:
That's strange theology in my view. It didn't take Paul's teaching to determine who were in or out of the body of Christ.

The body of Christ was not formed before this dispensation and it was revealed to Paul by revelations from Christ. By the faith of Christ, his blood redemption, that he was delivered for our offences and raised for our justification, determines that Jew and Gentile are in this dispensation of grace, placed in the body of Christ.

Doug · Jun 5, 2020

OzSpen said:
If I take your line of reasoning, what happens to those who died in Christ and will be resurrected one day (1 Cor 15) did not apply to pre-Pauline believers.

I will restate what I wrote in response:

The church of God that Paul persecuted is made up of those believers (Jew and Gentile) who believed on the name of Jesus and believed the gospel of the kingdom, the prophetic kingdom on earth. They are in Christ. These are the pre-Pauline believers you spoke of.

In the dispensation of grace the church of God is the body of Christ, revealed through Paul, the church where the Jew and Gentile has become one new man and will be in heavenly places. The body of Christ was not formed before this dispensation. They too are in Christ.

As far as the resurrection, both churches of God have part in the first resurrection. This resurrection is in two parts:
1st part of the resurrection; the dead in Christ in the body of Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) then we who are alive in the body (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The body of Christ will be risen to take position in the heavenly places.
2nd part of the resurrection; The believers in the church of God in Christ before this dispensation of grace, the tribulation saints, and the old testament saints, will be resurrected to enter the kingdom on earth.These are the pre-Pauline believers you spoke of.

OzSpen · Jun 5, 2020

Doug said:
I will restate what I wrote in response:

The church of God that Paul persecuted is made up of those believers (Jew and Gentile) who believed on the name of Jesus and believed the gospel of the kingdom, the prophetic kingdom on earth. They are in Christ. These are the pre-Pauline believers you spoke of.

In the dispensation of grace the church of God is the body of Christ, revealed through Paul, the church where the Jew and Gentile has become one new man and will be in heavenly places. The body of Christ was not formed before this dispensation. They too are in Christ.

As far as the resurrection, both churches of God have part in the first resurrection. This resurrection is in two parts:
1st part of the resurrection; the dead in Christ in the body of Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) then we who are alive in the body (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The body of Christ will be risen to take position in the heavenly places.
2nd part of the resurrection; The believers in the church of God in Christ before this dispensation of grace, the tribulation saints, and the old testament saints, will be resurrected to enter the kingdom on earth.These are the pre-Pauline believers you spoke of.

Doug,

There is not a shred of an indication that Christians before Paul's teaching were not members of the body of Christ,

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptised by one Spirit so as to form one body – whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free – and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 And so the body is not made up of one part but of many (1 Cor 12:12-14 NIV).

Paul's teaching is:

There are many parts of a physical body as there are for the body of Christ.
Notice the tense: 'we WERE all baptised by one Spirit so as to form one body'. It does not say that this baptism into one body happened only after Paul taught it. Jews and Gentiles, slaves & free 'were all given the one Spirit to drink'.

You are pressing a point that is not valid.

Oz

OzSpen · Jun 5, 2020

Doug said:
The body of Christ was not formed before this dispensation and it was revealed to Paul by revelations from Christ. By the faith of Christ, his blood redemption, that he was delivered for our offences and raised for our justification, determines that Jew and Gentile are in this dispensation of grace, placed in the body of Christ.

That is your idiosyncratic dispensationalism.

justbyfaith · Jun 6, 2020

Doug said:
There is nothing in the context of the verse to say that the cross was yet in view.

John 3:16? Yes there is something in its context. John 3:14-15 speaks of the Cross in a very profound manner.

OzSpen said:
That's strange theology in my view.

Heb 13:9, Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Doug said:
both churches of God

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Since we have predetermined that the church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18), it is clear that there is only one church because there is one body.

BreadOfLife · Jun 6, 2020

Doug said:
To say that what Jesus said equates to him referencing the church as the body of Christ is dubious. What would be more in keeping with the meaning of what Jesus said would be to relate what he said to the following verses:
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

You are talking out of BOTH sides of your mouth again.

In Acts 9:4-5, Jesus equates His Church with His very SELF.
To argue against this point - you present Matt. 25:40 and 25:45, which pretty much says the EXACT SAME thing.

The Church IS Christ on earth. It is His BODY - and HE is the HEAD (Col. 1:18).
Paul didn't "invent" this idea - Jesus was already teaching it in Matt. 25 . . .

Doug · Jun 6, 2020

OzSpen said:
Doug,

There is not a shred of an indication that Christians before Paul's teaching were not members of the body of Christ,

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptised by one Spirit so as to form one body – whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free – and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 And so the body is not made up of one part but of many (1 Cor 12:12-14 NIV).

Paul's teaching is:

There are many parts of a physical body as there are for the body of Christ.

Notice the tense: 'we WERE all baptised by one Spirit so as to form one body'. It does not say that this baptism into one body happened only after Paul taught it. Jews and Gentiles, slaves & free 'were all given the one Spirit to drink'.

You are pressing a point that is not valid.

Oz

Stating what Paul is revealing about the body of Christ and carrying it back to the four gospels and early Acts and saying those believers were in the body of Christ is not substantiated. There is nothing before Paul that speaks to the body of Christ wherein Jew and Gentile are no longer separate but one new man. Peter in Acts 10:28 as example still spoke of it being unlawful for a Jew to keep company with Gentiles.

Doug · Jun 6, 2020

justbyfaith said:
John 3:16? Yes there is something in its context. John 3:14-15 speaks of the Cross in a very profound manner.

These verses speak of his death on the cross which could be found in the old testament prophets esp Isaiah 53, not all the cross accomplished in forming one new man and free justification, without the law, or Israel and the covenants.

GENTILES NOT IN THE BODY OF CHRIST

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