There is no rapture

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Brother Mike

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Im4GODNo point in trying to help these souls. They want to battle!!!! The Anti-Christ and his evil army. They also want to suffer for Jesus, though God told them we escape the wrath to come, but hey!!! It could be they need to build character. It is very close to a purgatory concept, but it is above ground and not below.So, I guess let em suffer and be tested, it may bring some sense to them.Glad to see you post IM4GOD!!!!Be blessed.Jesus Is Lord.
 

geordie72

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Christians are not supposed to plan or prepare. God will provide (“Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or that ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on... Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, not gather into barns; yet your heavenly father feedth them. Are ye not much better than they?” --Matthew 6:25-34 & Luke 12:22-31 inclusive).
 

Christina

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Im4GOD;73184]I have to disagree with the lot of you although the actual term Rapture is not mentioned in the Bible there is a verse that may help to explain the blessed event please check out [URL=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:50-55&version=KJV]http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:50-55&version=KJV[/URL][/QUOTE] Thats the point there is not any event of a pre trib rapture ... Its not about the Word .... [U]Its the when[/U] and God only tells us of one gathering to him and thats at the 7th and last trump after the man of sin who is antichrist this is after the tribulation not before ... [B]Mike[/B] And we were not battleing Mike but [B]Adstar said:
having a very intellgent Bible based discussion ..perhaps you should read the posts.
 

Christina

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Adstar;73179]Hi Christina :) When i look at the scriptures you have quoted i cannot see any contradiction. The time that they will not be causing the deaths of the followers of the anti-christ will be [B]5 months[/B] as quoted. This is only stating that they will not be killing them for a limited time period. This scripture does not contradict other scripture that states that many followers of the anti-christ will be killed. On the day of the Messiah said:
. The elect will rule on earth with Jesus during the 1000 years after the Messiah's return. They will be ruling flesh human beings. While the saints will no longer die and shall live through all the 1000 years, there will be others who will live and die as before decendants of those who have survived the wrath of God. They shall live and die as before. Yes fear is the enamy, But Jesus revealed to us: Matthew 1028 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. As Redeemed people who have eternity with God we should fear death at the hands of anti-christs or persecution. And the concern i have is if people's faith is in being kept from persecution and execution then what will happen to their faith in God when they face such things? All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I agee with many of your points ....But you are missing a few important facts The tribulation does not start untill Antichrist (Satan) is here The events given in Mathew 24,Mark and Luke are things that must occur but they have been occuring they will just increase... But they are not the tribulation The tribulation Starts when AC (Satan) arrives as you say he will be pretending to be christ This is the danger.... If one is going to pretend to be christ and be able to convince the entire world he is christ he then must mimic christ's second coming. Just walking around claiming to be a messiah it is something we see everday by quacks and crazy's few believe this nonsense. No, No this is something much greater this will not only convince christains, but jews and muslims and even non believers that this being is christ this is not something a man can do .... Think about what would be such and event .... What could be so amazing it will covince all religions all peoples That the whole world will belive this is christ ... This will require miracles and lying wonders Follow the scriptures here the whole world will be reeling from the fall out of deadly wound ...... The world is in bad shape ....but the tribulation has not yet started ...Enter A.C. and heals the deadly wound and it appears he saves the world .... He then has such power and the whole world follows him as he sets up and completes beast system of government (one world government) We all know some scripture here do to you think all religions of the world and even non believers are not going be comparing his coming on the scene with scripture?? He must be mimicing christs second coming to convince the world he is christ....So who can and would do this who always wanted to be God ...who is this supernatural person that can convince all religions and all people he is the christ ????? let me direct you to Luke here for a start Luk 10:18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven Now compare this with the true Christs coming Mat 24:27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Sounds like a copy cat mimicing of christ to me Now whats said in Rev. Rev 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
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Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Well now we see he has but a short time. Why ? Because God shortened the time of the tribulation . the tribulation can not start until he is here ...when is this occuring? .... This is the 5th /6th trump thats when this occurs and starts the tribulation ..... True Christ comes at the 7th trump...
 

gumby

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Brother Mike;73186]Im4GOD No point in trying to help these souls. They want to battle!!!! The Anti-Christ and his evil army. They also want to suffer for Jesus said:
I will suffer for christ, i will fight against antichrist with god and you know something mike we will win. In fact the bible commands us to suffer and battle for christ. Acts 9:16, Romans 8:17, 1st Corinthians 4:12 2nd and Corinthians 1:7. I pray that you will realize the truth and realize that were not only battling satan here but where battling satans entire corrupt and evil followers in the world as we speak. People that want to get rid of god in our schools in our churches in our homes even........gods children know better satans not going to accomlish that through rapture or any other man made tradition.
 

geordie72

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God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
 

Adstar

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Christina;73195]I agee with many of your points ....But you are missing a few important facts [B]The tribulation does not start untill Antichrist (Satan) is here[/B][/QUOTE]The [B]great tribulation[/B] for the saints. But tribulation has been happening and is happening to Christians today in many parts of the world.Jesus said:John 1633 These things I have spoken to you said:
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” [/B]So tribulation has been going on for a long time and is present today. The only difference in the times of the anti-christ is that it will be great tribulation.
The events given in Mathew 24,Mark and Luke are things that must occur but they have been occuring they will just increase... But they are not the tribulation
I see many of the events to be a part of the tribulation happening during the time of the anti-christ.
The tribulation Starts when AC (Satan) arrives as you say he will be pretending to be christ This is the danger.... If one is going to pretend to be christ and be able to convince the entire world he is christ he then must mimic christ's second coming. Just walking around claiming to be a messiah it is something we see everday by quacks and crazy's few believe this nonsense.
While these false messiah's do attract followers they never have the ability to decieve many. Even most false christians are not deceived by them. But the true Anti-christ will be allowed to do great deceiving signs and wonders so that false christans will be totally won over to the deception. 2 Thessslonians 2The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,True Christians rely totally on the protection of the Holy Spirit to guide them, and in these end times even more so.
No, No this is something much greater this will not only convince christains, but jews and muslims and even non believers that this being is christ this is not something a man can do .... Think about what would be such and event .... What could be so amazing it will covince all religions all peoples That the whole world will belive this is christ ... This will require miracles and lying wonders
:) So we agree on the signs and lying wonders, good. I tend to think that part of the deception will require the destruction of one of these religions as a sacrifice to deceive another. We know the great hatred islam has for Judaisim. What better way for the anti-christ to win over the Jews to his deception then to use his power to destroy the Arabs. Daniels prophecy of the warring Kings of the North and the South i believe gives light to an end times battle between to False messiah's The king of the North is the anti-christ the king of the South the islamic mardi (not sure if that is the right spelling for the islamic messiah) We are told in the passage that both these men shall be evil and that the violent men of Daniels people (Jews) will rejoice at the events. To fool the world the anti-christ must bring about a false battle of Armageddon. One that he must win. I believe he will do this by destroying the arabs and defeating islam.
Follow the scriptures here the whole world will be reeling from the fall out of deadly wound ...... The world is in bad shape ....but the tribulation has not yet started ...Enter A.C. and heals the deadly wound and it appears he saves the world .... He then has such power and the whole world follows him as he sets up and completes beast system of government (one world government)
I see the wound as being a personal wound that will be delivered by an attempted assassination upon the anti-christ. The false prophet an assistant to the anti-christ will heal the deadly wound it will be one of the great signs and wonders performed to deceive the world. The anti-christ might be seen to be killed in this assassination attempt this will add more to the credibility of the false prophet who will heal/bring back to life the anti-christ. We all know some scripture here do to you think all religions of the world and even non believers are not going be comparing his coming on the scene with scripture?? He must be mimicing christs second coming to convince the world he is christ....So who can and would do this who always wanted to be God ...who is this supernatural person that can convince all religions and all people he is the christ ????? let me direct you to Luke here for a start Luk 10:18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven
Now compare this with the true Christs coming Mat 24:27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Sounds like a copy cat mimicing of christ to me Now whats said in Rev. Rev 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
copyChkboxOff.gif
Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Well now we see he has but a short time. Why ? Because God shortened the time of the tribulation . the tribulation can not start until he is here ...when is this occuring? .... This is the 5th /6th trump thats when this occurs and starts the tribulation ..... True Christ comes at the 7th trump...
:) I agree with you that Jesus will return upon the sounding of the 7th trumpet, i think i have posted the thoughts that i have on this on this forum somewhere ( i post of a few forums) And yes we agree that the anti-christ will seek to be seen as the returned Messiah and will pull off a great deception on those on the earth who do not truly believe Jesus. This is why everyone should open their bibles and read what Jesus said, they should truly seek with humility and a willingness to submit to the guidance of the Messiah Jesus in all things. Our peace and security is with him and not in the kingdoms and the powers in this world.All Praise The Ancient of Days
 

Adstar

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Hello Mike
Brother Mike;73186]Im4GODNo point in trying to help these souls. They want to battle!!!! The Anti-Christ and his evil army. [/QUOTE]I assure you it has nothing to do with desireing tribulation said:
They also want to suffer for Jesus, though God told them we escape the wrath to come,
You are right God will not bring wrath to us. There is a differance between the tribulation that is braught upon true followers of Jesus and the vengance of God braught upon the followers of anti-christ that is Gods Wrath.We suffer tribulation from followers of satan and followers of satan suffer the wrath of God, Is is Gods vengance upon the followers of satan for their persecution of His followers.
but hey!!! It could be they need to build character. It is very close to a purgatory concept, but it is above ground and not below.So, I guess let em suffer and be tested, it may bring some sense to them.
"sence to them",,, is this truly the way a follower of Jesus should speak to brothers and sisters in Jesus? even if you think they are misguided? All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Jordan

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Adstar, I do believe you are misreading a little bit of Christina's post. On your post (#67), on your first quote to Christina...On the second line, when she said "THE" she is talking about a specific tribulation... not just any tribulation... but THE tribulation in which she is obviously referring to the time when Satan comes.
 

geordie72

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Sep 20, 2009
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Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13
 

Brother Mike

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They were devil possessed Pigs, and if you ever had devil possessed pig, you would know the meat is tough and chewy with a slight taste of Ectoplasm. So, it was a good things those pigs went crazy and killed themselves as they were no longer fit for consumption. Pro 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. Jesus Is Lord.
 

Adstar

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geordie72;73223]Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs said:
What has this to do with the discussion?But Jesus said human beings are worth far more than many animals. Luke 1224 Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds?And we are.All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

gumby

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Adstar;73274]What has this to do with the discussion? But Jesus said human beings are worth far more than many animals. [B]Luke 12[/B]24 Consider the ravens said:
I agree here with you adstar, also Matthew 8:28 tells us that the man was of very violent nature and no one could aproach him anyway. I would have rather seen the pigs commit suicide personally than see jesus or his disciples at the time get attacked.
 

Glenn

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Apr 5, 2009
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Christina;73195]I agee with many of your points ....But you are missing a few important facts [B]The tribulation does not start untill Antichrist (Satan) is here[/B] The events given in Mathew 24 said:
convince the entire world he is christ[/U] he then must mimic christ's second coming. Just walking around claiming to be a messiah it is something we see everday by quacks and crazy's few believe this nonsense. No, No this is something much greater this will not only convince christains, but jews and muslims and even non believers that this being is christ this is not something a man can do .... Think about what would be such and event .... What could be so amazing it will covince all religions all peoples That the whole world will belive this is christ ... This will require miracles and lying wonders Follow the scriptures here the whole world will be reeling from the fall out of deadly wound ...... The world is in bad shape ....but the tribulation has not yet started ...Enter A.C. and heals the deadly wound and it appears he saves the world .... He then has such power and the whole world follows him as he sets up and completes beast system of government (one world government) We all know some scripture here do to you think all religions of the world and even non believers are not going be comparing his coming on the scene with scripture?? He must be mimicing christs second coming to convince the world he is christ....So who can and would do this who always wanted to be God ...who is this supernatural person that can convince all religions and all people he is the christ ????? let me direct you to Luke here for a start Luk 10:18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven Now compare this with the true Christs coming Mat 24:27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Sounds like a copy cat mimicing of christ to me Now whats said in Rev. Rev 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
copyChkboxOff.gif
Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Well now we see he has but a short time. Why ? Because God shortened the time of the tribulation . the tribulation can not start until he is here ...when is this occuring? .... This is the 5th /6th trump thats when this occurs and starts the tribulation ..... True Christ comes at the 7th trump...
The perception of Christ will have to be changed to fit all the religious ideas of their particular understanding of what Christ will be like, which I think is going on today; a Christ for all seasons, and peace will be his facade at first the answer to all the worlds problems.I have often thought of a falsh tribulation period as the model that might fool alot of people into believing he was Christ. Glen.
 

Christina

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Your on the right track here Glen but it's not the tribulation that will be fake its the second coming of christ that will be faked ...by the false christ Antichrist(satan) he will be pretending to be christ (this is the tribulation we are warned of). I think you are right Our perconceived modern ideas will allow many to be fooled.
 

Martin W.

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It was the demons who asked to enter the pigs.It was the demons (while in control of the pigs) that jumped off the cliff into the sea.Learn systematic theology.There is a rapture.The timing is unclear.Martin W.
 

Martin W.

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Jesus Christ , one day , will come down , at least part way , and translate the living Christians to meet him in the clouds in the air. This happens just after he has raised the dead Christians from the grave.This episode of living Christians flying away to meet the Lord in the air is commonly known as The Rapture and I accept the terminology.We are not given enough information to determine the timing of this event. But we sure try our best to nail it down according to our own personal feelings.Our own personal feelings are not sufficient doctrine. Yet we will beat each other to death to try prove otherwise. We are the Church.