Was the death on the cross necessary?

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Anthony D'Arienzo

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We can pick and choose now, there is no shortage of errors;

In his thread, our error donor John commented on one of my posts;John asserted this;

This is just a stupid statement. The believing church has held many positions on this topic. PSA is fairly new to the church (that does not make it wrong, but it makes the statement stupid).
Speaking of making stupid statements, look at this one:oops:

Here John Caldwell suggested this;
Another interesting thing is PSA does not acknowledge that Christ died not under God’s law but under the law of the world. But that's another topic.

Using Johns wording why is this statement stupid to the maxo_O

Could it be Gal4:4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman,
made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law,
that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians is dealing with the law of God. Not the law of the world.

Why was Jesus the lawgiver, made under the law He Himself gave? We are told to redeem them who were under the law. [
His active and passive obedience]
All law is based upon the Ten Commandments.
The law shows men their need of Christ, it was a schoolmaster bringing men to Jesus.
Men outside of Christ are under the law which they have broken and will face the full wrath of God eternally.
Isa42 speaks to the issue;
21
The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

This is why these kind of novelties are stupid and have been rejected.o_O
 

John Caldwell

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@Anthony D'Arienzo ,

You do realize that my view is older than yours and more accepted within the Christian faith, right?

Just because it is an older, orthodox, and historically held view does not make it right, granted. But you seem to talk as if you have never encountered it in your life, that it is such an oddity it has to be wrong. This is strange to me. Even when I affirmed PSA I knew about other positions (and I knew the history of PSA). Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is ignorance.
 
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Candidus

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This is just a stupid statement. The believing church has held many positions on this topic. PSA is fairly new to the church (that does not make it wrong, but it makes the statement stupid).
Speaking of making stupid statements, look at this one:oops:

While antiquity does not prove something to be correct, it does prove that it existed.

As for a study of historical theology, we know close to the date it was invented, and through written history we know that it did not exist at any time in the Church before that.

The burden of proof is on the one who would claim that PSA is what they taught in the Early Church, and tracing it through Church history.
You seem to have a concern about novelties, why not start with PSA and its history.
 
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Candidus

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@Anthony D'Arienzo ,

You do realize that my view is older than yours and more accepted within the Christian faith, right?

Just because it is an older, orthodox, and historically held view does not make it right, granted. But you seem to talk as if you have never encountered it in your life, that it is such an oddity it has to be wrong. This is strange to me. Even when I affirmed PSA I knew about other positions (and I knew the history of PSA). Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is ignorance.

I agree with John Wesley's statement- "Whatever is true is not new; whatever is new is not true." Recent novelties in doctrine are not likely to be true. If something is true, we would be able to find it in the past. There is nothing new under the sun.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Next stupid post from JonC-

Christ suffered and died at the hands of the world (at the hands of wicked men), not at the hands of God. The cross was necessary because the cross was the “worlds” condemnation.

As posted this denigrates the suffering and substitutionary work of Jesus and portrays this as Jesus was just a "victim" of a hate crime:oops:
Jesus was sent to go to the cross, He embraced it for the great love He had for His elect children.
The eternal purpose had the cross always in view; Rev13:


8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

A lamb slain....a voluntary love offering,
not the victim of a mugging..

The stupid posts divorce the plan and purpose of the trinity from active participation and make God a spectator in an unbiblical fatalism....Notice he said"
not at the hands of God" as if God was not in complete control. When Jesus prayed in the garden He asks the Father:

37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Jesus did not petition and ask, please keep me from getting mugged by the pagans.
He was facing the suffering of the cross.

 

Candidus

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Next stupid post from JonC-



As posted this denigrates the suffering and substitutionary work of Jesus and portrays this as Jesus was just a "victim" of a hate crime:oops:
Jesus was sent to go to the cross, He embraced it for the great love He had for His elect children.
The eternal purpose had the cross always in view; Rev13:


8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

A lamb slain....a voluntary love offering,
not the victim of a mugging..

The stupid posts divorce the plan and purpose of the trinity from active participation and make God a spectator in an unbiblical fatalism....Notice he said"
not at the hands of God" as if God was not in complete control. When Jesus prayed in the garden He asks the Father:

37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Jesus did not petition and ask, please keep me from getting mugged by the pagans.
He was facing the suffering of the cross.


"being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(Acts 2:22,23). I believe it!
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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While antiquity does not prove something to be correct, it does prove that it existed.

As for a study of historical theology, we know close to the date it was invented, and through written history, we know that it did not exist at any time in the Church before that.

The burden of proof is on the one who would claim that PSA is what they taught in the Early Church, and tracing it through Church history.
You seem to have a concern about novelties, why not start with PSA and its history.

We just go with scripture. We see it clearly taught right there.No need to explain it away.
In fact if you understood the Covenant nature of the atonement you would not ask.
Your friend JonC deflects to debate fallacies and double talk. I do not really interact with him as I have seen his methods in action several times before.
He followed me here to try and undermine me, but now I will do a public service by showing how he does his majic. As an added bonus, I will respond to your posted falsehoods which I previously avoided;)
 

John Caldwell

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"being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(Acts 2:22,23). I believe it!
I have learned long ago Scripture is not welcome in his theology fights. :D

Best to ignore him and cast not your pearls lest you be tempted to answer fools according to their folly.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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"being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(Acts 2:22,23). I believe it!

You do not understand what is being said in the verse because you have a defective understanding of the biblical usage of the term foreknowledge.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Here we go, I will offer you help from these men found on preceptaustin;
Steven Cole - Peter shows that Jesus was not killed because He was a victim of His enemies. He was killed because God predetermined before the world began that Jesus would die as the Savior of His people. Isaiah 53:10+ prophesied, “But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief.” And so rather than invalidating Jesus as Lord and Messiah, His death actually validated Him, since it was a fulfillment of God’s eternal decree. (The Sermon that Launched the Church)

David G. Peterson remarks, “
God’s foreknowledge (Gk. prognōsis) means more than his ability to anticipate the future. It is another way of talking about his determination of events in advance, according to his own plan.” (The Acts of the Apostles)

Now we see the mysterious juxtaposition of God's sovereignty (His predetermined plan and foreknowledge) and man's responsibility (culpability in this case). So while God set the plan of redemption in motion even "before time began" (2 Ti 1:9NET+), men are still held responsible for their volitional (willful) choices.


Foreknowledge (4268)(prognosis from verb proginosko from pro = before + ginosko = to know) literally means to know beforehand. God's foreknowledge means not only that He knew beforehand but that He also planned beforehand (cf. similar idea in Ex 33:17; Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew 7:22; 7:23 [note]). As used of God, the word prognosis means foreknowledge with a purpose that can never be frustrated.

"being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(Acts 2:22,23). I believe it!


John MacArthur on prognosis - Significantly, the word appears here in the instrumental dative case. That shows that it was the means by which Christ's deliverance to His enemies took place. Yet, mere knowledge cannot perform such an act. Foreordination can act, however, and that is the New Testament meaning of prognōsis. (MacArthur NT Commentary - Acts)

The natural human tendency is to believe that God's foreknowledge simply refers to His foresight, the idea that He knew beforehand. In a discussion of God's foreknowledge regarding election, Dr MacArthur explains why men equate foreknowledge with foresight. Click here (select Chosen by God - Part 2 - Scroll down to heading entitled "Man's Decline").

As J I Packer put it God "knows and foreknows, all things, and His foreknowledge is foreordination; He, therefore, will have the last word, both in world history and in the destiny of every man."

Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary says "God’s foreknowledge is much more than foresight. God does not know future events and human actions because He foresees them; He knows them because He wills them to happen. Thus God’s foreknowledge is an act of His will." (Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary)

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Foreknowledge Based on Foreordination - God's foreknowledge, according to the Scripture teaching, is based upon His plan or eternal purpose, which embraces everything that comes to pass. God is never represented as a mere onlooker seeing the future course of events, but having no part in it. That God has such a plan is the teaching of the entire Scripture.

 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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I have learned long ago Scripture is not welcome in his theology fights. :D

Best to ignore him and cast not your pearls lest you be tempted to answer fools according to their folly.
Another lie....Scripture is quite welcome except when it shows your error,lol
I have an abundance of scripture to draw from. We are going to see who is the fool here, and we both know who it is...but you had to take your customary slanderous shot , old habits die hard right JonC.
If anyone wants to see evidence of such pm me, and we can speak on the phone. I speak much faster than I type...
 

John Caldwell

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Another lie....Scripture is quite welcome except when it shows your error,lol
I have an abundance of scripture to draw from. We are going to see who is the fool here, and we both know who it is...but you had to take your customary slanderous shot , old habits die hard right JonC.
If anyone wants to see evidence of such pm me, and we can speak on the phone. I speak much faster than I type...
tenor.gif
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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John Caldwell, ,

You do realize that my view is older than yours and more accepted within the Christian faith, right?
That is your opinion and completely subjective. The topic at hand is not the musings of JonC on church history, it is what saith the scripture about the necessity of the cross. You have your own thread to post your ideas on, but they do not fly here:oops:

You dodge the issue with this garbage, as you try and flee to church history as many you would refer to were going apostate. We will go to scripture and God who gave it.

.But you seem to talk as if you have never encountered it in your life, that it is such an oddity it has to be wrong. This is strange to me. Even when I affirmed PSA I knew about other positions (and I knew the history of PSA). Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is ignorance.

To the reader, notice most every time JonC says ".But you seem to talk as if"..what follows 95 out of 100 times is an insult or a slam at the person.
This time he suggests I am blissfully unaware of these ideas,lol. The thing you do not see is how he is being deceitful in that he has seen me post on these things for years, so he thinks he can present this as if it is new....haha, not today JonC...the only ignorant thing I am reading is why you are typing on from your keyboard.....Now I will get back to dismantling the error you have tried to foist on others. Justified by faith was all over it as well as Angelina,and a few others...they are beginning to see what is taking place.

Readers and members...JonC is free to believe and post what he wants, but when he goes off-topic and tries to be critical and denigrate me personally, this will be stopped.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Next JonC error;
[God tells us it is an abomination to condemn the righteous and to acquit the guilty. So we know PSA is a false doctrine. But there remains one solution - one that is a righteous apart from the law. Make the guilty innocent. How? One must be born again.]

We know no such thing. The keyword is substitution; 2cor5:
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus in His role as mediator and surety voluntarily committed Himself to the Covenant Children.Heb7
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

2 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Your errors are so bad Louis Berkhof wanted to offer this for the readers; Systematic theology on the Covenant of Redemption;

1. Scripture clearly points to the fact that the plan of redemption was included in the eternal decree or counsel of God, Eph. 1:4 ff.; 3:11; II Thess. 2:13; II Tim. 1:9; Jas. 2:5; I Pet. 1:2, etc. Now we find that in the economy of redemption there is, in a sense, a division of labor: the Father is the originator, the Son the executor, and the Holy Spirit the applier. This can only be the result of a voluntary agreement among the persons of the Trinity, so that their internal relations assume the form of a covenant life. In fact, it is exactly in the trinitarian life that we find the archetype of the historical covenants, a covenant in the proper and fullest sense of the word, the parties meeting on a footing of equality, a true suntheke.

2. There are passages of Scripture which not only point to the fact that the plan of God for the salvation of sinners was eternal, Eph. 1:4; 3:9,11, but also indicate that it was of the nature of a covenant. Christ speaks of promises made to Him before his advent, and repeatedly refers to a commission which He had received from the Father, John 5:30,43; 6:38-40; 17:4-12. And in Rom. 5:12-21 and I Cor. 15:22 He is clearly regarded as a representative head, that is, as the head of a covenant.

3. Wherever we have the essential elements of a covenant, namely, contracting parties, a promise or promises, and a condition, there we have a covenant. In Ps. 2:7-9 the parties are mentioned and a promise is indicated. The Messianic character of this passage is guaranteed by Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5; 5:5. Again, in Ps. 40:7-9, also attested as Messianic by the New Testament (Heb. 10:5-7), the Messiah expresses His readiness to do the Father’s will in becoming a sacrifice for sin. Christ repeatedly speaks of a task which the Father has entrusted to Him, John 6:38,39; 10:18; 17:4. The statement in Luke 22:29 is particularly significant: “I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me.” The verb used here is diatithemi, the word from which diatheke is derived, which means to appoint by will, testament or covenant. Moreover, in John 17:5 Christ claims a reward, and in John 17:6,9,24 (cf. also Phil. 2:9-11) He refers to His people and His future glory as a reward given Him by the Father.

4. There are two Old Testament passages which connect up the idea of the covenant immediately with the Messiah, namely, Ps. 89:3, which is based on II Sam. 7:12-14, and is proved to be a Messianic passage by Heb. 1:5; and Isa. 42:6, where the person referred to is the Servant of the Lord. The connection clearly shows that this Servant is not merely Israel. Moreover, there are passages in which the Messiah speaks of God as His God, thus using covenant language, namely, Ps. 22:1, 2, and Ps. 40:8.

Yes the cross cannot be divorced from this purpose,God is not a spectator, but the redeemer.
 

historyb

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Why do people speculate like this? We question the One's Ways, who is perfect in every way, and put human conditions and ideas into it. God is so far above us, His ways are so different then our ways, yet some people think they know better than He.

Because faith is small and everyone thinks they must question everything. I do believe that this maybe what was meant when Christ said "But will the Son of Man find faith on earth when he comes?” Luke 18:8 GNT
 
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John Caldwell

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Because faith is small and everyone thinks they must question everything. I do believe that this maybe what was meant when Christ said "But will the Son of Man find faith on earth when he comes?” Luke 18:8 GNT
I think you are right.

The most spiritually nature person I knew was a pentecostal lady. I thought her theology was awful. But she spent hours in the morning and evening in prayer. When she visited with you you could see the love of God. Ask her a theology question and she would say she does not know, it does not make sense to her. But she could quote and apply Scripture and would always add she knows Jesus and that is all that matters to her.

I am not knocking theology. But it seems some have exchanged knowing Jesus for knowing about Jesus. We live in an information age, so perhaps it is a sign of the times.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Why does the cross being necessary make penal substitution theory the correct one?

It doesnt, but scripture does.
Rennicks....what happens to sinners who are cast into second death?

rev20"
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mt 25;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The other ideas highlight one truth at the expense of all the others.
Jesus is victorious yes; col2
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.



but the wrath of God will come upon all who are not found in Him
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;