Did Jesus claim to be God?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

tigger 2

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2017
916
405
63
84
port angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
JunChosen wrote:

"No one in the know who posted here in CB ever said that Jesus is NOT God! In fact, at least I, have argued that He is the 'The Great, I AM'"

............................................

There is no "Great I AM"!

The ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew OT (the Septuagint) of Ex. 3:14 has ho on ("the being") at Ex 3:14 instead of ego eimi ("I am")!

"I am" in the KJV (and many others) is the least probable meaning for the Hebrew ehyeh found in Ex. 3:14. Everywhere else in all the writings of Moses (as found in KJV and many other trinitarian-translated Bibles) ehyeh is translated as "I will be."

Try examining all the Bible versions which translate Ex. 3:12, for example. I doubt that you will find any of the better-known translations which have "I am (ehyeh) with you." All I have examined say "I will be (ehyeh) with you." Ex. 3:12 - ASV; ESV; JB; KJV; NAB; NASB; NIV; NRSV; RSV; for example.


The words ego eimi formed a phrase that was in very common use by first century Christians and Jews and in New Testament scriptures. It was certainly not understood (by Jews or Christians) as declaring one’s Godhood! If it could have been understood that way, we can be sure the Jews would have never applied it to themselves (as they did so frequently)!

The ex-blind man, for example, when actually identifying himself, said “ego eimi ("I Am"), but none of the other Jews present, even for a moment, understood him to be claiming to be Jehovah! And, of course, no one attempted to stone him! - John 9:9. Also Acts 26:29.

There simply is no "Great I AM" at Exodus 3:14 to be paired up with Jesus and others saying (many times) "I am"!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, Good was not murdered by humans. The Divine Soo of God gave His life a ransom for many.
There's a world of difference between offering your own life on behalf of others, and having your life taken by others. The former reveals the true extrent of the love of God.
No, Good was not murdered by humans. The Divine Soo of God gave His life a ransom for many.
There's a world of difference between offering your own life on behalf of others, and having your life taken by others. The former reveals the true extrent of the love of God.
He committed suicide?
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No one in the know who posted here in CB ever said that Jesus is NOT God! In fact, at least I, have argued that He is the "The Great, I AM"

Now God should not be thought of as separate individuals in the sense of Peter, James, and John because Peter, James, and John are not one. They are lacking in absolute unity. There is disagreement among them. There is the difference as to gifts and capabilities, and quality of brains and so forth. They are not equal, they are not one in unity and substance, in essence, and purpose, and so on, as God is indeed one. So we must not take them as three different persons like Peter, James, and John, for this denies His absolute unity and substance, and essence. On the other hand, to say God is an absolute unity in the sense as of one alone without subsisting as three persons is also heresy according to the Bible. And so all of us in our hearts today should join in the doxology of the church:

Praise God in whom all blessings flow
Praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

For our God indeed is ONE GOD and yet we see that the Scriptures teach plainly, although we cannot understand how, the Scriptures teach plainly that God is ONE, He exists in one unity, He subsists in three persons as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For the Bible teaches indeed that the Father is God. It teaches indeed that the Son is God. It teaches indeed that the Holy Spirit is God. Three persons, distinct, and separate. And yet in the same breath that declares, this God who exists in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist as ONE GOD, ONE JEHOVAH for all of eternity!

To God Be The Glory
"They" is one?

No wonder folks think Christians believe strange ideas.

God is not a "they" of God, but a him(singular).

Jesus said this in describing God...

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You better get on the same page as Jesus, who worshipped "him", not "they".
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@101G and @Brakelite2,

Great is the controversy of the Trinity. The Trinity is one of many reasons why it is misunderstood because people read and critic the Bible as an ordinary, instead of a spiritual book.

Jesus spoke in parables (Mark 4:34) and without a parable He did not speak to them, that seeing they may see and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand, lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them (Mark 4:12).

In contrast, the just/believers shall live by faith (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11).

"We walk by faith and not by sight" (2 Corinthians 1:24).
Read Hebrews Chapter 11.

The million dollar reason:
"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8:9

To God Be The Glory
GINOLJC, to all,
First thanks for your reply, second, there is no Trinity, and there no Great controversy in the mystery of godliness, ... (which is no more) THAT MYSTERY IS OVER WITH... it is clearly stated in 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

STOP RIGHT THERE. there is the answer, "God" whom many of you call ther Father manifested in the Flesh as the "Son", the same one person. you don't have to go and look for this, nope, no research, and you don't have to pray about it. it is given to us in BLACK and WHITE. "GOD", manifested in the flesh. the mystery is that he, God diversified himself, or "equally" shared himself in flesh, (per Phil 2:6). remember this is "GOD" who many quickly will say... 0h this is the Father... as said in Acts, "GOD raised up Jesus, and some say, the Holy Ghost raised up Jesus. see the ERRORS now? well lets get educated, for your edification.

this is what I been saying all along, if all of God manifested in flesh then there's a problem. Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

here's the point of contention, if all of God manifested in the flesh, (and I believe he did with all of my heart, mind, soul), the question is, "how did he do it while upholding/running the universe at the same time". THAT'S A GOOD AND LEGITIMATE QUESTION TO ASK. because "NO REPUTATION", is the greek word for, "EMPTY", or "NEUTRALIZED".
G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756

Now if all of God was "neutralize", and it was, for the scriptures don't lie, again how did God do it?. the only answer is in the bible, right there in black and white, listen. Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
Offspring means "DIVERSITY".
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

not a separate, "person", no. not a part of God, for he is not divided, God is one. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" so that rules out any ECHAD.

Just as the apostle Paul said by the Holy Spirit, Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

BINGO, there is no excuse, only one will lie, either knowingly or not, that's just reality. the truth is right in the bible. now one can believe the truth or contuine in a lie.

I'm going to keep on saying this till someone gets it, "GOD IS A DIVERSITY/OFFSPRING OF HIS OWNSELF". this is clearly stated in Isaiah 63:5, and confirm by Isaiah in 53:1-10.

I speak with a new tongue according to scripture, Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" I simply believe the word of God, the scriptures, hence my NEW TONGUE ..... "Diversity".

PICJAG.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No one in the know who posted here in CB ever said that Jesus is NOT God! In fact, at least I, have argued that He is the "The Great, I AM"
you are correct, only those in the "KNOW". but there are a few here who still don't believe that Jesus is the ONLY true and LIVING GOD.

yes, he's the ONLY "I AM" which describe "WHAT" he is and NOT, "WHO" he is in Name. WHAT he is ... "GOD" as Father, and when he came in flesh, WHAT he he "GOD", in flesh as "Son". "I AM THAT I AM". Father without flesh, and Son with flesh.

PICJAG.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cooper

JunChosen

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2020
1,836
409
83
Los Angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
not a separate, "person", no. not a part of God, for he is not divided, God is one. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" so that rules out any ECHAD.

The diabolical sons of Arius who deny that the ONE GOD JEHOVAH subsist as three persons love to quote Deuteronomy 6:4 in defense of their HERESY; apparently, they are unaware that "Elohim" is used in reference to the Godhead which is a uni plural noun. And they also fail to recognize that Jehovah is the sublime title for Him who is ONE GOD. So they quote, “hear O Israel Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. Remember when LORD is spelled with all capital letters in the Old Testament in the KJV, the printer is telling the English reader that the word behind LORD is YHWH or JEHOVAH. Please observe certain things quite plain in the English and even more clear in the Hebrew text: Jehovah (singular) our Elohim (plural) is one Jehovah (singular). The one God Jehovah is seen subsisting in the plurality of three or more because the “im” ending of Elohim means three or more, and yet it declares He is one Jehovah even as in over Deuteronomy 4:35.

Another thing to be observed in this passage which so plainly declared the doctrine of the Trinity in such a dynamic way, is the little word “one.” This term speaks of a compound unity, the Hebrew word is “echad” and declares “oneness” in plurality.

We might also observe here for the technical term "one only" or "one alone" and that’s “yahid,” but that is NOT the term used in Deuteronomy 6:4 or these other passages noted where it speaks of unity, or plurality, or the fact that God exists in three persons is ONE GOD.

Therefore, you are in error to specifically say Jesus is the Only true and living God!


I'm going to keep on saying this till someone gets it, "GOD IS A DIVERSITY/OFFSPRING OF HIS OWNSELF". this is clearly stated in Isaiah 63:5, and confirm by Isaiah in 53:1-10.

I too will keep on saying till you "gets it!" The term God in Genesis 1:1 is the Hebrew plural word "Elohim" and confirmed by Genesis 1:26,27.


I speak with a new tongue according to scripture, Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" I simply believe the word of God, the scriptures, hence my NEW TONGUE ..... "Diversity".
Aside from speaking with new tongues, there are other signs that follow all believers:

"In my name shall they cast out devils"...do you know of any believer today that can cast out devils like Jesus performed?

Do you know of any believer today that "shall take up serpents"and not get hurt?"

Do you know of any believer that "if they drink any deadly thing (like strychnine) it shall not hurt them?"

"They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Do you know of any believer today who makes the hospital rounds by laying on of hands, and they get well?

So you simply believe the word of God the scriptures.

Then why don't you believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God as Scripture teaches. I don't have to prove the doctrine of the Trinity as Scripture itself bears witness to the fact there are three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yet is one God.

To God Be The Glory
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: theophilus

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The diabolical sons of Arius who deny that the ONE GOD JEHOVAH subsist as three persons love to quote Deuteronomy 6:4 in defense of their HERESY; apparently, they are unaware that "Elohim" is used in reference to the Godhead which is a uni plural noun. And they also fail to recognize that Jehovah is the sublime title for Him who is ONE GOD. So they quote, “hear O Israel Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. Remember when LORD is spelled with all capital letters in the Old Testament in the KJV, the printer is telling the English reader that the word behind LORD is YHWH or JEHOVAH. Please observe certain things quite plain in the English and even more clear in the Hebrew text: Jehovah (singular) our Elohim (plural) is one Jehovah (singular). The one God Jehovah is seen subsisting in the plurality of three or more because the “im” ending of Elohim means three or more, and yet it declares He is one Jehovah even as in over Deuteronomy 4:35.

Another thing to be observed in this passage which so plainly declared the doctrine of the Trinity in such a dynamic way, is the little word “one.” This term speaks of a compound unity, the Hebrew word is “echad” and declares “oneness” in plurality.

We might also observe here for the technical term "one only" or "one alone" and that’s “yahid,” but that is NOT the term used in Deuteronomy 6:4 or these other passages noted where it speaks of unity, or plurality, or the fact that God exists in three persons is ONE GOD.

Therefore, you are in error to specifically say Jesus is the Only true and living God!
thanks for your reply, second, I'm a son of God, and I deny any "oneness" who subsist as three persons as God, and I also deny any “echad” as God.

and yes, I cast out devils, starting with your "three person" in the Godhead and your “echad” Error, which is of the devil.

lets get to work, casting out these devils. :D

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

Looking at these two verses it seem like it is speaking of TWO separate PERSONS, don’t it.….

In John 1:1, Person #1 God, whom many say is the “Father”/God, and Person #2 the Word whom many say is the “Son”. it seems to be saying that the Son is, or was “WITH” the Father correct? your plurality of one .... right, but one more,

In Isaiah 41:4, Person #1 the “First”, (lets just say the Father, for argument sake, ok, according to you a separate person). and Person #2 the “Last” the Son, (for argument sake). Here, the Father/First is or was “WITH” the Son/the Last, JUST AS IN John 1:1 .. right... right. Seem reasonable enough, agree?

so JunChosen, listen carefully. is the person whom you call God is the Same person who is the Word in John 1:1, as "WITH" declares?

and is the "First" the same person as the "Last" in Isaiah 41:4, as "WITH" declares? Yes or no on both.

will be looking to hear from you soon.

PICJAG.
 

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
866
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
"They" is one?

No wonder folks think Christians believe strange ideas.

God is not a "they" of God, but a him(singular).

Jesus said this in describing God...

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You better get on the same page as Jesus, who worshipped "him", not "they".

We both are body, soul, and spirit. We are ONE person.

My body is not my soul, and my soul is not my spirit, but "THEY" are ONE person.
The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit but "THEY" are ONE God.
We are billions, God is One.
.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: theophilus

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Theophilus said:
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?”And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV[/QUOTE\]

In the scripture above Jesus clearly shows he isn't his Father who is in heaven, but the one who does his Fathers will who is in heaven, will enter into the kingdom.[/QUOTE\]

Theophilos said:
In saying that he will decide who enters the kingdom he is claiming to be God, just as the Father is.[/QUOTE\]

You completely twisted what Jesus said. As that Scripture shows, Jesus didn't claim to be his Father in heaven. The fact that you say, that Jesus is the one deciding who will be in the kingdom, again he didn't say that, but instead said that the one who does his Fathers will, who is in heaven will be the deciding factor who gets into heaven.
People can call Jesus Lord Lord all they want and do many powerful works but if they didn't do The will of Jesus Father who is in heaven what they have done is meaningless because they ignore the will of Jesus Father who is God.[/QUOTE\]

Theophilos says:
The scribes were correct. Only God can forgive sins. Jesus was claiming to be God, and he backed up his claim by what he did next.
And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic— “I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.”[/QUOTE\]

Yes, Jesus has the authority to forgive sins. However, for you and those like you , who believe that the Only way a persons sins can be forgiven is for that person who is forgiving sins, meaning Jesus, he has to be God. That you think that, only shows me, that you have no true faith in The True God Jehovah. Why do I say that? Because you don't have faith that God can give his Only Begotten Son, that kind of authority. The only way that you and others like you can believe that Jesus has the authority to forgive sins is if he is God. Myself, I believe and have faith that if The True God Jehovah, who is the Father and God of Jesus, wishes to give his Only Begotten Son the authority to forgive sins or make all things and all authorities subject to his Only Begotten Son, including death and therefore sin, since sin causes death, then I have faith and believe that The True God Jehovah has the right and authority to do just that. Just because you and others, don't believe The True God Jehovah has the right or authority to do that, just shows how much faith you lack concerning The True God Jehovah's way or arrangement in which he is going to undo all that Satan has done since the garden of Eden.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Theophilus said:
There was one time when Jesus plainly said that he was God.

“Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:56-58 ESV

To understand the significance of what Jesus said we must look at what God said to Moses in their first encounter.

Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.” Exodus 3:13-15 ESV[/QUOTE\]

It has been shown by much evidence that Jesus wasn't referring back to Exodus 3:14 when he stated John 8: 56-58. But not only that, the context isn't speaking about Jesus identification. All Jesus was saying is that the Only Begotten Son of God existed long before Abraham was born, that's all Jesus was saying.

Another text in John’s writings the trinitarians bring up in their arguing that John’s writings teach that Jesus Christ is God. That text is found in Jesus’ argument with the Jews given in John 8:56-58 (AV): “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, "I AM"

The expression “I AM” is there used as a title or a name, and in the Hebrew this expression is the one word Ehyéh (אהיה). Jehovah God was there speaking to Moses and sending him to the children of Israel. Well, then, in John 8:58, was Jesus claiming to be Jehovah God? Not according to many modern Bible translators, as the following quotations will prove: Moffatt: “I have existed before Abraham was born.” Schonfield and An American Translation: “I existed before Abraham was born.” Stage (German): “Before Abraham came to be, I was.” Pfaefflin (German): “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!” George M. Lamsa, translating from the Syriac Peshitta, says: “Before Abraham was born, I was.” Dr. James Murdock, also translating from the Syriac Peshitto Version, says: “Before Abraham existed, I was.” The Brazilian Sacred Bible published by the Catholic Bible Center of São Paulo says: “Before Abraham existed, I was existing.”—2nd edition, of 1960, Bíblia Sagrada, Editora “AVE MARIA” Ltda.

We must remember, also, that when Jesus spoke to those Jews, he spoke to them in the Hebrew of his day, not in Greek. How Jesus said John 8:58 to the Jews is therefore presented to us in the modern translations by Hebrew scholars who translated the Greek into the Bible Hebrew, as follows: Dr. Franz Delitzsch: “Before Abraham was, I have been.” Isaac Salkinson and David Ginsburg: “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.” In both of these Hebrew translations the translators use for the expression “I have been” two Hebrew words, both a pronoun and a verb, namely, aní hayíthi; they do not use the one Hebrew word: Ehyéh, which was the Hebrew word used at Exodus 3:14. So they do not make out that in John 8:58 Jesus was trying to imitate Jehovah God and give us the impression that he himself was Jehovah, the I AM.

In what language did John write his life account of Jesus Christ? In the Greek language, not in Hebrew; and in the Greek text the controversial expression is Egó eimí. Just by itself, without any introductory material ahead of it, Egó eimí means “I am.” Now this expression Egó eimí occurs also in John 8:24, 28; and in those verses the Authorized or King James Version and the Douay Version and others render the expression into English as “I am he,” the pronoun he being put in italics to indicate that the pronoun he is added or inserted. (AV; AS; Yg) But here, in John 8:58, those versions do not render this same expression as “I am he,” but only as “I am.” They evidently want to give us the idea that Jesus was not simply referring to his existence but also giving himself a title that belongs to Jehovah God, in imitation of Exodus 3:14.

When writing John 8:58, the apostle was not quoting from the Greek Septuagint Version, a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures made by Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, Egypt, before the birth of Christ. Let anyone who reads Greek compare John 8:58 in Greek and Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint, and he will find that the Septuagint reading of Exodus 3:14 does not use the expression Egó eimí for God’s name, when God says to Moses: “I AM hath sent me unto you.” The Greek Septuagint uses the expression ho Ōn, which means “The Being,” or, “The One who is.” This fact is clearly presented to us in Bagster’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, at Exodus 3:14, which reads: “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING [ho Ōn]; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING [ho Ōn] has sent me to you.” According to Charles Thomson’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, Exodus 3:14 reads: “God spoke to Moses saying, I am The I Am [ho Ōn]. Moreover he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, The I Am [ho Ōn] hath sent me to you.” Thus this comparison of the two Greek texts, that of the Septuagint and that of John 8:58, removes all basis for trinitarians to argue that Jesus, in John 8:58, was trying to fit Exodus 3:14 to himself, as if he was Jehovah God.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Theophilus said:
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”


This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:17,18 ESV[/QUOTE\]


Again Jesus didn't claim to be God.
When some Jews accuse Jesus of breaking the Sabbath by healing a man, Jesus replies: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.”—John 5:17.

No, what Jesus is doing is not forbidden by God’s law regarding the Sabbath. His work of preaching and healing is in imitation of God’s good works. So Jesus keeps on doing good every day. His reply to his accusers, however, makes them even angrier than they were before, and they seek to kill Jesus. Why this reaction?

In addition to their having the mistaken view that Jesus is breaking the Sabbath by healing people, they take great offense at his saying that he is God’s Son. They consider it blasphemy for him to view God as his Father, as if Jesus’ saying that Jehovah is his Father amounts to making himself equal to God. However, Jesus is unafraid and answers them further regarding his special relationship with God. “The Father has affection for the Son,” he says, “and shows him all the things he himself does.”—John 5:20. So as the scriptures show us, Jesus didn't claim to be God.
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We both are body, soul, and spirit. We are ONE person.

My body is not my soul, and my soul is not my spirit, but "THEY" are ONE person.
The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit but "THEY" are ONE God.
We are billions, God is One.
.
Were are not person(S), but ingredients making a single person.

Same with God.

God is a Spirit. That's it. A singular Spirit. A "him" according to Jesus.

Not an "us", according to the RCC.

Read John 4:24 very carefully.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Theophilus said:
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?”And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV[/QUOTE\]

In the scripture above Jesus clearly shows he isn't his Father who is in heaven, but the one who does his Fathers will who is in heaven, will enter into the kingdom.[/QUOTE\]

Theophilos said:
In saying that he will decide who enters the kingdom he is claiming to be God, just as the Father is.[/QUOTE\]

You completely twisted what Jesus said. As that Scripture shows, Jesus didn't claim to be his Father in heaven. The fact that you say, that Jesus is the one deciding who will be in the kingdom that makes him the true God, again he didn't say that, but instead said that the one who does his Fathers will, who is in heaven will be the deciding factor who gets into heaven, Jesus didn't say those doing his will but said the one doing his Fathers will will be the one's entering the kingdom.
People can call Jesus Lord Lord all they want and do many powerful works but if they didn't do The will of Jesus Father who is in heaven what they have done is meaningless because they ignore the will of Jesus Father who is God.[/QUOTE\]
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Theophilos said:
In saying that he will decide who enters the kingdom he is claiming to be God, just as the Father is."


I counted 2 God's in that statement.
 

tigger 2

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2017
916
405
63
84
port angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The diabolical sons of Arius who deny that the ONE GOD JEHOVAH subsist as three persons love to quote Deuteronomy 6:4 in defense of their HERESY; apparently, they are unaware that "Elohim" is used in reference to the Godhead which is a uni plural noun. And they also fail to recognize that Jehovah is the sublime title for Him who is ONE GOD. So they quote, “hear O Israel Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. Remember when LORD is spelled with all capital letters in the Old Testament in the KJV, the printer is telling the English reader that the word behind LORD is YHWH or JEHOVAH. Please observe certain things quite plain in the English and even more clear in the Hebrew text: Jehovah (singular) our Elohim (plural) is one Jehovah (singular). The one God Jehovah is seen subsisting in the plurality of three or more because the “im” ending of Elohim means three or more, and yet it declares He is one Jehovah even as in over Deuteronomy 4:35.

Another thing to be observed in this passage which so plainly declared the doctrine of the Trinity in such a dynamic way, is the little word “one.” This term speaks of a compound unity, the Hebrew word is “echad” and declares “oneness” in plurality.

We might also observe here for the technical term "one only" or "one alone" and that’s “yahid,” but that is NOT the term used in Deuteronomy 6:4 or these other passages noted where it speaks of unity, or plurality, or the fact that God exists in three persons is ONE GOD.

Therefore, you are in error to specifically say Jesus is the Only true and living God!




I too will keep on saying till you "gets it!" The term God in Genesis 1:1 is the Hebrew plural word "Elohim" and confirmed by Genesis 1:26,27.



Aside from speaking with new tongues, there are other signs that follow all believers:

"In my name shall they cast out devils"...do you know of any believer today that can cast out devils like Jesus performed?

Do you know of any believer today that "shall take up serpents"and not get hurt?"

Do you know of any believer that "if they drink any deadly thing (like strychnine) it shall not hurt them?"

"They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Do you know of any believer today who makes the hospital rounds by laying on of hands, and they get well?

So you simply believe the word of God the scriptures.

Then why don't you believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God as Scripture teaches. I don't have to prove the doctrine of the Trinity as Scripture itself bears witness to the fact there are three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yet is one God.

To God Be The Glory
.....................................

Plural “God” (Elohim)

That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote “a ‘plural’ of majesty or excellence” is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the best authorities for Biblical Hebrew!

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (“long regarded as a standard work for students”), p. 49, shows that elohim, /*%-!, (“God/gods”) is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,

“The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times.” And that elohim when used in that sense “occurs in a [numerically] singular sense” and is “constr[ued] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular.”

Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., pp. 398, 399, says:

“The pluralis excellentiae or maiestatis ... is properly a variety of the abstract plural, since it sums up the several characteristics belonging to the idea, besides possessing the secondary sense of an intensification of the original idea. It is thus closely related to the plurals of amplification .... So, especially Elohim ... ‘God’ (to be distinguished from the plural ‘gods’, Ex. 12:12, etc.) .... That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary, 1925 ed. Pg. 224:

Elohim "is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God."

More modern publications (trinitarian Protestant and Catholic) also make similar acknowledgments of the intended plural of majesty or excellence meaning for elohim. (See the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. v., p. 287.)

Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, describes elohim:

“…the common plural form elohim, a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:

“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:

“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

The noted trinitarian scholar, Robert Young, (Young’s Analytical Concordance and Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible) wrote in his Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 1,

“Heb. elohim, a plural noun ... it seems to point out a superabundance of qualities in the Divine Being rather than a plurality of persons .... It is found almost invariably accompanied by a verb in the singular number.”

Both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 show God calling Moses "a god" (elohim).  This alone shows the error of some that the plural elohim must mean a "plural oneness" unless we want to believe Moses was a multiple-person Moses!

And The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:

Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:

“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And The New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:

ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

To show how ancient Jewish scholars themselves understood this we can look at the work of the seventy Hebrew scholars who translated the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (OT) into Greek several centuries before the time of Christ. The Greek language did not use the “plural of excellence” that the Hebrew did. So, if we see a plural used in the Greek Septuagint, it was really intended to represent more than one individual!

So how is elohim rendered in the Greek Septuagint by those ancient Hebrew scholars? Whenever it clearly refers to Jehovah God, it is always found to be singular in number (just as in New Testament Greek): theos ! Whenever elohim clearly refers to a plural (in number) noun, it is always found to be plural in number in Greek (just as in the New Testament Greek): theoi or theois (“gods”).

For example: “I am the Lord thy God [elohim - plural of excellence in Hebrew becomes theos - singular in the Greek Septuagint]” - Ex. 20:2. And “know that the Lord he is God [as always, the plural elohim, as applied to the God of Israel, becomes the singular, theos in the Septuagint] he made us...” - Ps. 100:3.

But when elohim really does mean plural in number, we see it rendered into the Greek plural for “gods” in the Septuagint: “Thou shalt not worship their gods [elohim in Hebrew becomes theois - plural in the Greek Septuagint], nor serve them .... And thou shalt serve the Lord thy God [singular - Greek].” - Ex. 23:24-25.

We see exactly the same thing happening for translations of the plural elohim in the ancient Septuagint and in the Christian NT.
 
  • Like
Reactions: theophilus and APAK

tigger 2

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2017
916
405
63
84
port angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
JunChosen, post 246:

Another thing to be observed in this passage which so plainly declared the doctrine of the Trinity in such a dynamic way, is the little word “one.” This term speaks of a compound unity, the Hebrew word is “echad” and declares “oneness” in plurality.

We might also observe here for the technical term "one only" or "one alone" and that’s “yahid,” but that is NOT the term used in
Deuteronomy 6:4 or these other passages noted where it speaks of unity, or plurality, or the fact that God exists in three persons is ONE GOD.

.................................
Echad/Yachid (part 1)

So let’s examine the intended meanings of echad and yachid.

First, it certainly wouldn’t be surprising to find that some noted trinitarian authority on Biblical Hebrew had written somewhere that echad means “united or plural oneness.” but I haven’t found one yet!

Here is what I have found written about echad by authorities on Biblical Hebrew:

The only definition given for echad in the very trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance is: “a prim[ary] card[inal] number; one”. We find no “plural oneness” there!

The respected Biblical Hebrew authority, Gesenius, says that echad is “a numeral having the power of an adjective, one.” He then lists the various meanings of echad as:

“(1) The same,”

“(2) first,”

“(3) some one,”

“(4) it acts the part of an indefinite article,”

“(5) one only of its kind,”

“(6) when repeated [echad ... echad] ‘one ... another’,”

“(7) [K echad] AS one man.” [The initial consonant of this word, “K,” (or כ in Hebrew) actually means “as” or “like,” so in this special form the meaning is close to that of a plural oneness. But this is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 !! ]

Gesenius also lists a plural form of the word (achadim,) which means “joined in one, united.” This, too, is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 which context shows, instead, to have meaning #5 above. - See Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #259, Baker Book House. Surely, if God (or Jehovah) were really a union of persons, a united one, this form which truly means “united one” would have been used to describe “Him” repeatedly in the Holy Scriptures. But it and all other words with similar meanings were never used for God (or Jehovah)!

By using a good Bible Concordance (such as Strong’s or Young’s) we can find all the uses of echad in the Bible. Unfortunately (due to space limitations), Young’s and Strong’s both list the rare plural form (achadim) and the “AS one” (Kechad) form along with the common singular form (echad) without distinguishing among them.

Nevertheless, since both the plural form and the kechad form are used quite rarely (see Ezek. 37:17 and 2 Chronicles 5:13 for examples), we can see that the overwhelming majority of the uses of echad listed in these concordances (over 500) obviously have the meaning of singleness just as we normally use the word “one” today.

If you should find a scripture listed as using echad in your concordance that definitely has the meaning “plural oneness” or “together,” or “as one,” you should check it out in an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible. If the word in question is really the echad form of the word (as at Deut. 6:4), then it will end with the Hebrew letter “d” in the Hebrew portion of your interlinear. If, however, it is really the plural form of the word (achadim), then it will end in the Hebrew letter “m.” And if the word is really Kechad (“AS one”), it will begin with the Hebrew letter “k.” Remember, though, that Hebrew reads from right to left (so the LAST letter of a Hebrew word is really the letter at the extreme LEFT. You can look up the Hebrew alphabet on-line.)

Using your concordance along with an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible in this manner, I don’t believe you will ever find echad (as used at Deut. 6:4) literally meaning “plural oneness”!

Further emphasizing the impropriety of this “plural oneness” interpretation of echad are the many trinitarian renderings of Deut. 6:4. In the dozens of different trinitarian Bible translations that I have examined none of them have rendered Deut. 6:4 (or Mark 12:29) in such a way as to show anything even faintly resembling a “plural oneness”!!

Even the highly trinitarian The Living Bible, which, being a paraphrase Bible, is able to (and frequently does) take great liberties with the literal Greek and Hebrew meanings in order to make better trinitarian interpretations, renders Deut. 6:4 as “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone.” Notice that there’s not even a hint of a “plural oneness” Jehovah!

The equally trinitarian (and nearly as “freely” translated as The Living Bible) Good News Bible (GNB) renders it: “The LORD - and the LORD alone - is our God.” - Compare the equally “free-handed” (and trinitarian) The Amplified Bible.

And even among the more literal trinitarian translations of Deut 6:4 we find:

“The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.” - New Revised Standard Version.

“The LORD is our God, the LORD alone!” - New American Bible.

“The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.” - The Holy Bible in the Language of Today, Beck (Lutheran).

“Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh.” - New Jerusalem Bible.

“Yahweh is our God, - Yahweh alone.” - The Emphasized Bible, Rotherham.

“The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.” - An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed).

“The Eternal, the Eternal alone, is our God.” - A New Transation, Moffatt .

The trinitarian ASV (also the RSV) gives 4 different possible renderings of Deut. 6:4. One of them is identical with The Living Bible, and none of them includes an understanding of a “plural oneness” God!

The paraphrased The Living Bible also renders Mark 12:29 (where Jesus quotes Deut. 6:4 and an excellent spot for him to reveal a “trinity” God --- or even just a “plural oneness” God) as: “The Lord our God is the one and only God.” Notice the further explanation of the intended meaning of this scripture at Mark 12:32, 34. “’... you have spoken a true word in saying that there is only one God and no other...’ Realizing this man’s understanding, Jesus said to him, ‘You are not far from the Kingdom of God.’”

Why doesn’t this highly interpretive trinitarian paraphrase Bible (or any other Bible for that matter) bring out a “plural oneness” meaning at these scriptures (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29) if that can be a proper interpretation for echad?

Surely, if the trinitarian scholars who translated this Bible had thought there was even the slightest justification for an echad = “plural oneness” interpretation, they would have rendered it that way: “Jehovah is a composite unity;” or “Jehovah is the United One;” or “Jehovah is a plural oneness;” etc.

Instead they have clearly shown that God (who inspired it), Moses (who wrote it under inspiration), and even Jesus himself (who taught that it was part of the most important commandment of all - Mark 12:28-29, LB; GNB; etc.) intended this scripture to show God as a single person only!

Similarly, the three annotated trinitarian study Bibles I own would certainly explain any intended “multiple-oneness” meaning for echad at Deut. 6:4 (if there were any possibility of such an interpretation). But the extremely trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., gives no hint of such an understanding of echad in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else). And the trinitarian The New Oxford Annotated Bible, 1977 ed., likewise gives no hint of such an understanding in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else). And that trinitarian favorite: The NIV Study Bible, 1985, also gives no hint of such a meaning for echad in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else). The only possible reason for all these trinitarian study Bibles ignoring this “proof” is that it simply is not true!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

tigger 2

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2017
916
405
63
84
port angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Echad/Yachid (part 2)

Yachid

We have already seen the absolute falsity of the “echad-means-’plural-oneness’” idea. But what about yachid? Did the Bible writers really use it whenever they meant “absolute mathematical oneness”? We have already seen that they really used echad for “absolute mathematical oneness,” and a good concordance will show they did this consistently—many hundreds of times!

Yachid, on the other hand, is only used about 12 times in the entire Bible and then only in a narrow, specific sense.

The Old Testament language authority, Gesenius, tells us that yachid is used in three very specialized ways: (1) “only” but primarily in the sense of “only begotten”! - Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; Jer. 6:26; and Zech. 12:10. (2) “solitary” but with the connotation of “forsaken” or “wretched” ! - Ps. 25:16; 68:6. (3) As yachidah (feminine form) meaning “only one” as something most dear and used “poet[ically] for ‘life’ - Ps. 22:20; 35:17.” - p. 345 b.

We find yachid is never used to describe God anywhere in the entire Bible! But it is used to describe Isaac in his prefigured representation of the Messiah (and ‘only-begotten’): Gen. 22:2, 12, 16. It is also used at Judges 11:34 for an only-begotten child. The ancient Greek Septuagint translates yachid at Judges 11:34 as monogenes (“only-begotten”): the same NT Greek word repeatedly used to describe Christ (even in his pre-human heavenly existence - 1 John 4:9). Monogenes, however, like the Hebrew yachid, is never used to describe the only true God, Jehovah (who is the Father alone).

So, if Jehovah were to describe himself as “forsaken” or “wretched,” or were speaking poetically about his “dear life,” or were describing himself as the “only-begotten son” (which he never does anywhere in the Bible!), then he might have used yachid.

But since he was describing his “mathematical oneness” at Deut. 6:4, he properly used echad!

As we pointed out at the beginning, there are Hebrew words that mean “plural oneness,” but echad is not one of them. As another example, notice the clear meaning of echad as “absolute mathematical oneness” at Gen. 42:11 where the sons of Jacob say, “we are all one [echad] man’s sons.” They certainly weren’t saying “we are all sons of different men who together make up a ‘plural oneness’ man.”! Instead, the inspired Bible writer wrote that they were all sons of one [echad not yachid] single, solitary man.

We see the same thing at Malachi 2:10 even though we find two different interpretations by trinitarian translators.

Some translate it:

“have we not all one [echad] father? Has not one [echad] God created us?” - RSV.

The meaning of this rendering seems to be that everyone has a single person as his earthly father and, by comparison, we also all have a single [echad] person as our God and Creator in heaven.

Other trinitarian scholars translate Malachi 2:10 as:

“Have we not all the one Father? Has not the one God created us?” - NAB (1970 and 1991).

“Is there not one Father of us all? Did not one God create us?” - NJB.

“Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?” - JB.

“Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?” - NKJV.

“Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?” - The Amplified Bible.

“Is there not one Father to us all? Has not one God created us?” - MKJV, Green.

“Don’t all of us have one Father? Hasn’t one God created us?” - In the Language of Today, Beck.

“Do we not all have one Father? Has not one God made us?” - NLV.

We clearly see in these trinitarian translations that the common Hebrew use of parallelisms was intended by the inspired Bible writers. That is, the first half of the verse is differently worded but parallel in meaning with the second half. Therefore, the first half refers to God just as the second half does, so the translator has capitalized “Father” to make such an interpretation unmistakeable. The meaning in this interpretation, then, is:

“We all have one [echad] Father (the only person who is God),” and, in parallel meaning,

“We all have one [echad] Creator (a single person as God).” - Compare 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:6.

No matter which interpretation you prefer, it is clear that the comparison with (or parallel with) a single individual father (whether we interpret it as the single male human parent or the single person, God the Father), who is called “one [echad] father/Father,” is a single individual who is called “one [echad] God”! The comparison (or parallel) would be senseless if echad meant one single person for “father/Father” (as it must) in its first half and “plural oneness” persons for “God” (as it clearly doesn’t) in its second half!

The inspired Bible writers at Gen. 42:11, Malachi 2:10, and Deut. 6:4 could easily have used a word that really means “united one” - but they didn’t! The inspired Bible writer at Deut. 6:4 could also have easily said (and definitely should have said if it were true) that “God is three persons who together make up the one God” or even just “the one God is three persons,” but he didn’t, and neither did any other Bible writer! He should also have used yachid repeatedly in the Bible for God if Jehovah is ever to be understood as being Jesus (“the only-begotten”), but no Bible writer describes Jehovah that way, ever!

A footnote for Deut. 6:4 in the trinitarian The New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says:

“this passage contains the basic principle of the whole Mosaic law, the keynote of the Book of Deuteronomy: since the Lord [Jehovah] alone is God, we must love him with an undivided heart. Christ cited these words as ‘the greatest and the first commandment,’ embracing in itself the whole law of God (Mt 22:37f and parallels [especially see Mark 12:28-34]).”

As the ASV renders it in a footnote for Deut. 6:4 - “Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one”. Yes, the great distinction between Israel and all the nations around them was that they worshiped only one [“absolute mathematical oneness”] person as God (as they always have, and as they still do today - see the ISRAEL study).

The only honest interpretations of “this great declaration” of Deut. 6:4 are “Jehovah our God is only one [echad] person” or “Jehovah our God is only one God”!

Judging by the literal meanings of both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek (NT and Septuagint OT) Scriptures Deut. 6:4 actually says: “Hear Israel, Jehovah the God of us, Jehovah is one” (Sept. Greek) and “Jehovah our God, Jehovah [is] one” (Hebrew - Interlinear Bible). But in any case echad clearly refers to a single, solitary [absolute mathematical oneness] being, not a “multiple oneness”!

So even the very trinitarian literal translation, the New King James Version, (like the very trinitarian ETRV paraphrase Bible) translates echad at Deut. 6:4 correctly as: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD [Jehovah] our God, the LORD [Jehovah] is one!”

The meaning is clear. It is expressed perhaps even more clearly in the popular trinitarian paraphrase Bible, The Living Bible: “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone.”
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
866
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Were are not person(S), but ingredients making a single person.
Same with God.
God is a Spirit. That's it. A singular Spirit. A "him" according to Jesus.
Not an "us", according to the RCC.
Read John 4:24 very carefully.
You are really annoying me. The verse you quoted says we must worship God in spirit and in truth, you deny the truth. We know God is Spirit. We also know God is in Christ, and was with us here on earth. They are ONE. (Body, Soul and Spirit.)

God was in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:19

in Him (Christ) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9

God says so, it is not up for debate.
.
 
Last edited:

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The "WITH" Factor. the Plurality of “God” the (Elohim)
Many Christian believe that there is more than one person in the Godhead. and as said many times, NO. but people still don't believe the scriptures. now if one don;'t believe the scriptures then they are as lost as a blind man. lets check the record.

I posted before the term "with" in two scriptures that clearly without doubt shows that there is only ONE PERSON, they are,

A. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and,

B. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

in John 1:1 it clearly tells us that the Word is "GOD" in the last segment John 1:1c, "and the Word was God." it's the same person, now, Isaiah 41:4.
it tells us that the "LORD" who is the First is the same person who is the last for if one would notice the LORD is "I", a single person correct. now this

C. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO, there it is. the single person "I" the LORD is the "First and he is the "Last", for the adverb "also" here indicate "in addition; too." "I" the LORD is the First.... and "ALSO" the Last. now many say that they believe the bible, ok, the BIBLE JUST TOLD YOU THAT THE LORD IS THE FIRST "WITH" THE LAST WHO IS THE SAME ONE PERSON.

so the billion dollar plus question is how is one person is a plurality of their ownself? the answer once again... "diversity", the equal "SHARE" of one's own....self, just as G243 allos states, a numerial difference, but the "same SORT"... BINGO, that's the billion dollar plus answer. one day, one day the light blub will come on, and I just hope it come on before it's too late.

so God who is a "Yachid" ...of only ONE, diversified, or "EQUALLY" shared himself in flesh to be the G243 allos of himself in Spirit. oh how easy to understand.

if one just read the OT scriptures it's so clear. and the NT reveals it definitely, or as the mordern times say, HD clear.

so compare John 1:1 to Isaiah 41:4, and then read and understand Isaiah 48:12 then one will see that God is "ONE" of his "OWN" self as
Isaiah 63:5 states. God, the one whom many calls the Father is his "OWN" ARM" in flesh. to understand God ARM in flesh, just read 2 Chronicles.

PICJAG.
 
Last edited:

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are really annoying me. The verse you quoted says we must worship God in spirit and in truth, you deny the truth. We know God is Spirit. We also know God is in Christ, and was with us here on earth. They are ONE. (Body, Soul and Spirit.)

God was in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:19

in Him (Christ) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9

God says so, it is not up for debate.
.
No, the verse starts by Jesus Christ saying(describing) God as a singular Spirit, then it speaks of worshipping HIM, 2 times as HIM....not Jesus, but HIM....God(in spirit/truth).

And yes, we now worship Jesus, whom everything God consists of, that fully indwells Jesus, bodily.

My point, not every bit of God could fit in Jesus' man sized body on earth, so he had to be made a quickening spirit by his God after resurrecting.

Then, and only then, could men worship Jesus as God, the Everlasting Father....by default because of the Col 2:9 effect on his post resurrected body.

Pre cross, Jesus was not God, but described God as a Spirit, which he was not.

Post cross, Jesus was fully indwelled by everything his God consists of, bodily, which makes God nowhere else but inside Jesus' body, which makes Jesus his God by default.