Moving to Zion?

guysmith Hello n2thelight,You stated: Truth be told,I don't want to go anywhere.I will be where God wants me to be.I feel the AC police as you call them will get me..Im I scared?No!This is the time Im looking forward to,as this is the time I will not have to think of anything to say but what comes out of my mouth, will be 110%true!My response: My comfort is in Christ also. However, your position sounds like you prefer the death camps over being alive at Christ's advent. I am not going to try and convince you otherwise, but I have a few questions, if you would, which would help me understand your position.Do you use your car safety belt?Do you have a fire extiguisher and smoke detector in your home?If you answered yes to the first two questions, please tell me why you bother?If miraculously, you found yourself transported in time back to hours before Noah's flood was to begin, and you had an oportunity to get on the ark, would you get on the ark?

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n2thelight;73771] I would love to be one of these saints more than anything said:

I shall be with Christ [/COLOR]either way...either I will be here when He comes or Im coming back with Him....

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We can't be part of that "first resurrection" after we physically die so...it happens while we walk the earth. We are NOW of the first resurrection and He is in us! Isn't that amazing and wonderful?

lloydnook;73793]The comments I see on this Thread said:

I can only answer for myself. God's Word tells me there is NO rapture. God's Word tells me that believers are Israel. There is no replacement...we are either of the genetic line of the house of Israel or we are adopted. As far as the tribulation. Satan's tribulation is deception and as he already has all others his battle is with us, those that have the "testimony of Jesus Christ."

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whirlwind;73796][B]I can o[/B][B]nly answer for myself.[/B] [B]God said:

God's Word tells me that believers are Israel. There is no replacement...we are either of the genetic line of the house of Israel or we are adopted. As far as the tribulation. Satan's tribulation is deception and as he already has all others his battle is with us' date=' those that have the "[I']testimony of Jesus Christ[/I]." [/ lloydnook; we clearly differ!This is my, and many others opinion re. the Rapture:The Rapture, Those Taken, and Those Not. Some Christian groups (although not many even know of the subject) teach that prior to the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy commences, the Body of our Lord (i.e. true Christians) will be removed from the earth in an instant of time (Gk. Atmos). They will be removed supernaturally by Christ, to HIMSELF, and will be forever with HIM. This event is called by some "The Rapture", by others "The Translation", or "Catching Away." This Body will consist of Christians who have died since the Body began, and those who are still alive at the time of the event. They will be removed to be with Christ (Greek for "Messiah") "and shall ever be with Him". There are a number of questions to ask regarding the above which the following will attempt to tackle. 1) What is the authority for such a concept?2) Does such an idea apply to Christians?3) If 1) and 2) are considered and found to be authenticated what is the timing of such an event? 1) What is the authority for such a concept? Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, "Behold I tell (show) you a mystery (secret); we shall not all sleep (in the first death), but we shall all be changed". (V52) "In a moment (Greek Atmos), in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the (a) trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed". Also in 1 Thess. 4:13-17 in a similar way, but with the added information (verse 17) "so shall we ever (Str. 3842 Interlinear 'at all times') be with the Lord". Paul wrote to the Corinthians of which the above is quoted in approx. AD 57, and in response to a letter from the Corinthian church group, who were being assailed by various teachers and opponents. After he had dealt with various questions and problems, he gives a rare insight into a future glorious event, which whilst obviously intended for encouragement, also culminates at the end of the chapter in a glorious proclamation of the defeat of death and sin. As regards Thessalonians, he wrote in approx. AD 53, as part of his ongoing building up of that group, composed mainly of Gentiles, which he had initiated with the help of Silas and Timothy. Paul wrote to the Corinthians at a time when his efforts with the Jews was towards its end, as synagogue after synagogue rejected Christ as Messiah, risen and to re-appear. His concerns were turning to the long range nurturing of "Christ's Body", (the church) as the time of the final confrontation with the Roman synagogue approached, in approx. AD 61. Although the Corinthian reference is prior to the "prison epistles" (approx. AD 59-62), the proximity to the Acts 28 divide is marked, and in all probability would have been part of the ongoing revelation by Christ to Paul as part of the "latter information", which was mentioned by Christ to Paul (then Saul) at his conversion experience, (Acts 26:16), and as shown in Acts 23:11. Our Lord had already told His disciples and others, that "had you been able to accept it", John the Baptist would have been to them Elijah, who would then have brought about the prophecy of Malachi 3:1 and 4:5, which would have ushered in "the great and dreadful day of Jehovah" (4:5). Paul and others in their ministry frequently referred to the Lord's coming again, and the context in the early days shows that they were talking near future. Had the Jews accepted as a nation, (starting with the ruling groups) that Jesus whom they crucified was indeed their long awaited Messiah, He would indeed have returned, and the events of AD 69-70 when the Romans sacked and razed Jerusalem, would have turned into the initiation of the Day of the Lord (JEHOVAH), with totally different result. The Jews, instead of becoming LO-AMMI (not my people), would have come into the promised blessing of Gen. 15, and elsewhere. Instead of being dispersed worldwide as happened after AD 70, their borders would have been established and strengthened (Ezekiel). However, all the above is yet to be undone. The Jews are yet to be re-adopted (AMMI), to become the world's leading nation, with Christ (Messiah) living amongst them, located in Jerusalem. This glorious state will last for 1000 years, often called "The Millennium". Before all this can commence, there has to occur a most dramatic event. The Israel which the world knows now (1996), has been attempting to obtain peace and safety since they were reformed in 1948, and given international recognition by the declaration of the League of Nations, now the United Nations (UN). They have tried unsuccessfully to achieve this by negotiation, and when necessary by warfare. There will yet arise a personage (Daniel:11) of great charisma, influence, and problem solving ability, who will be trusted by the Jews to broker a peace settlement with them that they will genuinely trust. For the first time they will say "peace and safety", and will believe it. Then the words written by Paul starting at 1 Thess. 5:3 become relevant to our study. 2) To Whom then did this passage which includes 1Cor. 15:51 etc. and 1Thess. 4 apply? It was written to Christian groups made up of Jews and Gentiles, so it applies to PEOPLE OF THE TRUE BODY. It is a fact that not all people that are members of a church group, fellowship etc., are of the Lord's Body. Only those who sincerely in their heart have taken Christ into their lives and "are sealed in heavenly places" Eph. 4:30, and only the Lord knows the heart (Psalm 44:21), (Nah.1:7), (Lk.16:15), (Acts 15:8), (2Tim.2:19). Usually for such people, the rest of their lives are spent wanting to know their Lord, Saviour and Friend in greater depth and breadth. Many people are involved in public worship, service and church ritual. However, only the true Body are capable of "worshipping in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23). If it is possible, they welcome the companionship of other members of the Body, and the Bible is the centre of their life on earth. They do not criticise the Bible (but do criticise erroneous and biased translations and teaching), but know the original is the inspired work of the Holy Spirit, through men (2 Tim. 3:16). They accept it without question as the "TRUTH" and Christ said of Himself "I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE" (John 14:6). As the Bible from beginning to end is about CHRIST, who is the second person of the Godhead, and who as the "Word become flesh", is the ONLY way of redemption from sin and death; those who are part of HIS BODY are clearly very special. When did it apply? Then certainly. However since then the Jews have become LO - AMMI (disowned for a period of time by God). However Christians are not in that state, and the promises made by Christ, and the work continued by Paul and others since, still apply, so the happening described by some as "The Rapture" has not yet taken place. This means that it is yet future, and that it can be looked for by Christians now, and in the future. Why should such a concept apply to one group of people and not to others? The very simple answer is that Christians (true) have responded to the Love of God in Christ, very often against considerable odds against them, and the response is simple and true. Our Lord's love and concern for Christians is clear from many statements in Scripture, and particularly so from His reply to Saul on the Damascus road, when in reply to Saul's question "Who art thou Lord", Christ replied, "I am Jesus whom thou Persecutest". Saul was killing and persecuting Christians throughout the land, and Christ said by implication that those Christians are My Body, and He was at pains to stop that persecution and at the same time to enlist and anoint Paul into His service. There is a beautiful and definite link between the individual Christians and the collective Body of Christ. This is shown in Eph. 1:4, which states that Christians are foreknown by the Almighty BEFORE the Foundation (overthrow) of the world, and which links into our Lord's prayer in John 17:24. It is interesting to note that Peter's vision of unclean things (Gentiles), and the command to reach out to them, was almost simultaneous with Paul's conversion and commission. The persecution of Christians by Saul was also at the instigation of Satan, and Saul was and would have remained a willing servant of the great Enemy. Paul was explicitly chosen and commissioned by our Lord to be the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13), for his many great qualities, but outstanding was his sincere heart before the Almighty to do only His will. During the LO-AMMI period, the Christian church of Christ's Body is the recipient of God's love. The Church is also an example to heavenly creation of the working out of God's Love in Christ (Eph. 3:10), that same group of onlookers will see the removal of the Body from the earth, as part of the blessings yet to be bestowed. 3) When? This is more difficult. The Hendrickson Interlinear rendering of the timing is; (1Cor. 15:52) in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed". Trumpet sounds in heaven play a crucial role in the timings of the Almighty. They are probably used in Scripture due to the fact that throughout man's history, trumpets have been used prior to the advent of modern communications to signal changes in battle, and to draw attention to declarations by civil authorities etc. It therefore follows that the Holy Spirit would use the language that most people up to this present century would understand. It is used therefore to announce an important event or change in Scripture, (ADMINISTRATION) or (DISPENSATION). There are many trumpets soundings in Scripture, in particularly relating to the "end times", and judgements of God in Revelation. The books of the Prophets, and that of Revelation are intertwined, and as stated earlier, the 70th week of the prophecy given to Daniel is linked to the events of Revelation. The Revelation (or "Apocalypse"), relates to God's dealings with mankind prior, during, and after the appearing of Christ for the second time. The original title of the book "APOCALYPSE", means "The revealing or unveiling of Christ". The title "The Revelation of John", was given to the book at a later date by men. As Christ is to appear a second time, and in great power and glory, it follows that His Body will be complete at that time, both in individuals, and as HIS Mystery Body. It is the opinion of some that the "TRANSLATION" will occur an instant prior to the Lord's return to earth, and that they will experience 3½ years Tribulation that must yet visit the Jews, and some think much of the world. There are others that think the Body will be taken at some time prior to the 70th week commencement. Some even think many years prior. There are hints in Scripture that the Body is not to experience the "wrath to come", which would probably follow in logic, as it is much loved by Christ, and would be inflicting further wounds on Christ Himself. Also, the heavenly creation who are witnessing the Church on earth, could easily consider further punishment on Christ's Body as unnecessary and unjust, and to what purpose? The Lord completed the redemption work on Calvary's cross. It is the opinion of the writer and others, that not all who call themselves Christians will be Raptured as described, (see Note at end). The "overcomers" of the Seven Churches, clearly are subject to the Tribulations described, and many "Christendom" people will probably join their ranks, and others will receive the "mark" of the Antichrist! Unless the Body has a work to undertake in the Tribulation period, which it would undoubtedly willingly do, there seems no logic in such presence. The particular people mentioned who do have work to undertake are also given special protection for the duration of that work. Christians (Christ ones), are by definition a product of the "Grace" period, (the AGE OR DISPENSATION, OR ADMINISTRATION OF GRACE i.e. all who will may come [to Christ]). It is irrefutable that the 70th week is the continuation of the history of the Jews, and completes the 490 years of prophecy of Daniel's revelation by the angel of God. The Jews by definition are NOT Christ ones (CHRISTIANS), and as the Almighty in CHRIST JESUS has yet to complete "the grafting", Rom. 11, this cannot be done until the Jews accept HIM as Messiah, Lord and King; and realise that HE IS the One they crucified (Zech. 12:10), (John 19:37). The "grafting" will be completed, in the writers view, at the "Marriage of the Lamb", see Rev.19. To mix together the period of Jewish prophecy and future history with the age of Grace is to commit the same common error of many "teachers" of this age, who continually confuse and mislead the genuine seekers after truth, and who are easy tools of Satan by misuse and wrong interpretation of Scripture. There may however be some overlap of the two periods, as seemed to be the case just prior to the LO-AMMI period (Acts 28). Paul again in 1 Thess. 5:1-10, writes conclusively that Christ's Body is not destined for the "WRATH" (V9). In these verses he outlines the events. He shows that when THEY (Israel) say "peace and safety", that is the time of the happening. He relates that the Body is not of the night or darkness, "For God hath not appointed US to wrath", BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION (the original Greek has Salvation in Interlinear 4991 rescue, safety) BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST", so it should read, "but to obtain rescue and safety by OUR LORD CHRIST JESUS". From examination of Revelation, much of the time is one of judgement, suffering and eventual triumph of the plan of God in Christ, and is "the Day of The Lord (Jehovah)" (Rev.1:10)on earth! This great Day, is mentioned many times in the Prophets, and is the culmination and justification of Almighty God, and His Promises and Statements; and vindicates the whole of Scripture, and His dealings with mankind! The people specifically mentioned are "the 7 churches", "the 144,000", "the 12 tribes of Israel", the two witnesses and "the nations". No mention is made of CHRIST'S BODY (CHRISTIANS), although some interpret the “7 churches” as such. However, the “7 churches are certainly yet future groups (Ecclesia, = called out ones) who are intimately involved with the lead in time to the judgement of God on earth, and whose mandate is "overcoming"!That the Body of Christ is not subject to "Jehovah Zebaoth Judgement" is self evident; as that would be Judgement of Christ Himself, Who has already completed that cycle at Calvary! Just as the "Passover Lamb" was the Jehovah "Salvation" for the Jews in Egypt (the Paschel Lamb), so Christ became, and is The Paschel Lamb of all Christ-Ones, and through Him are passed from death unto life. It is notable that Jesus became the Paschel Lamb, on the eve of the Jewish Passover! Christ-Ones are not therefore to be touched by the avenging angels of God, as shown in Revelation is the case for the earth's population. (This dealing of God on the nations, not to be confused with the last Satanic attack on God's people Israel). Just as the blood bought Jews were delivered from the avenging angel and Pharaoh, so the people of Christ's Body, Christ-Ones, in the marvel of the "Rapture"! A further point that should be examined; in the above quoted verse 1Cor. 15:52, "at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound" is quoted. By the time the last trumpet has sounded in Revelation, many judgements have been inflicted on the earth by God, after the only One who is found worthy to release the judgements, THE LAMB (CHRIST) (MESSIAH), has done so. To the writer it seems incredible that Christ would inflict these judgements on those who are already HIS, and much loved. If the trumpet quoted above is one and the same, then Christians will experience the Tribulation. In which case, the question must be asked why? The Greek word for trumpet, is the same for both the above reference and in Revelation, so no clue is given there. It has to be mentioned that some think that the references in Thessalonians and Corinthians do not refer to Christians, but to Israel. That construence could only apply if the Church of the Body began after Acts 28, which is not the opinion of the writer. It is in conclusion, reasonable to assume that the trumpet quoted in Corinthians is "A trumpet", and probably heralds the end of the age of Grace on earth, also it is not numbered, as are those in Revelation. Taken together with other "evidence", it is almost certain that Christians (Christ's Body), are translated prior to the 70th week, or possibly shortly after its commencement. Paul gives precise information as to the nature of our New Body in Phil. 3:21. Note: there are many groups in Christendom's churches worldwide, that teach erroneously in the view of the writer; that we are in the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth now! How they can possibly come to such a conclusion can only mean that they do not know Scripture, are ignoring parts of Scripture that do not fit their idea; or worse, are led by the great enemy Satan.When one tries to talk to these people about their teaching, they invariably give obtuse answers that do not bear examination against Scripture, or become angry and evasive or both! That attitude is a sure sign of insincerity or ignorance, and usually leads nowhere but to breakdown of communications, and exclusion!The events of Prophecy regarding the period of Revelation, are fulfilling (filling full) in a very short period of time, many critical happenings which bring to completion Age related events and Promises of Almighty God; and vindicate the whole of Scripture!This is part of the defeat of the great enemy Satan, and at that stage "every knee shall bow to Christ", Who as God Incarnate, defeated Satan on the Calvary Cross! For misinformed or Satanic people to say that "Christ has come in our hearts, and is ruling the world through us, and we will help Him to make the world a better place", is to totally misunderstand at best, or to mislead for wrong motives at worst! Leaving aside all the detail, which they usually refuse to discuss, it demeans the power of Almighty God, and attempts to defraud Him of His yet to be overt Triumphal Glory, and His Day of Righteous Vengeance against His enemy Satan!What these people do not seem to realise, is they are working for Satan, whether by ignorance, or by conscious effort, but their leaders will be judged the most severely, as they carry the responsibility! See the following links: http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Prophets,Prophetesses,Shepherds%20and%20Teachers..htm http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20Antichrist%20Revelation%20chapter%2013%208.htm It is implicit in the words of Scripture that The Lord Returns for those that are looking for Him! Those with the above mentioned teaching may not indeed be true Christ-Ones, and are part of "Christendom" which will be left behind to endure the Tribulation described in Revelation and the Prophets! Two such verses with that implication are; Phil.3:20-21, and Heb.9:28.The only arbiter to that condition is Christ Himself, as only He as God Incarnate knows the heart of every individual!There is usually an uproar of abuse at this suggestion, but that does not change what seems to be easily perceived fact from Scripture itself!Wherever, in the opinion of the writer, such reaction occurs, untruth reigns in the hearts and minds of the people concerned, as instead of desiring to take the matter to Scripture in sincerity and prayer, abuse, obfuscation, and exclusion occur!For those so abused, even by loved ones, prayer is the recourse, very often over a lifetime!In the meantime, we continue to "look for Him"; MARANATHA! Subjectindex

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lloydnook;73793]The comments I see on this Thread said:

lloydnook,You have been a member of this forum for almost one year and you have posted on this topic many times. You know this forum does not agree with the rapture and never will believe in the rapture. All the questions you list above, have been answered several times over the year, why do you keep asking? Go read the old posts. I don't care about your opinion, I will stick to God's Word.

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whirlwindWe already are "with Christ."

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n2thelight;73833]I know the Holy Spirit dwells in me now said:

I know what you meant and I know the Holy Spirit dwells in you. As "the babe leapt" in the womb I believe one child of God recognizes another when they meet. Your light shines for you are n2thelight! It is just that for the past several months I have come to a deeper understanding of what is meant by Him abiding in us...while we are in the flesh. Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;When that is done, when our old carnal nature is crucified "with Him," then He truly abides IN US, while we are in flesh. He walks in us and lives in us now. 1 John 4:2-3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. The antichrists are in a battle against God's children. If they were to teach that Christ didn't come in the flesh, as a flesh man....then how many would they fool? That isn't what is being said. Instead it is that they deny He lives in us as we walk the earth. He is literally "come in the flesh," in our flesh.

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