CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Grace is the power of God. The power of God sustained Paul, and lead him to write.
cc: @justbyfaith
just got up, going to have my tea.
intentional sins?
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Grace is the power of God. The power of God sustained Paul, and lead him to write.
cc: @justbyfaith
just got up, going to have my tea.
The following passages are what I provided to JBF. As I told you, the many passages I would refer you to must be understood properly. Grace is a free gift that is always available to the newborn Christian. But we have to exercise this free righteousness we are given us through Christ. We have to exert will power to make use of it. What good is it if Christ has given us love if we don't make use of it?
Indeed, if everything we do that makes us look righteous comes by *grace,* then the implication is not that we are perfect, but on the contrary, we are superseding our sin nature by drawing upon the free gift of Christ's righteousness.
Paul emphasized his doing righteousness in Christ, and considered his sin nature to be dead, with respect to eternal redemption. Since he chose not to live by that nature, his salvation rested on his choice to live in the righteousness of Christ.
Our salvation is both present and future. It is present inasmuch as we can access Christian righteousness now, and don't have to wait until the future resurrection. But it is also future inasmuch as the sin nature will not be eradicated from our bodies until we are raised from the dead.
Paul was the same as we are--sinners saved by grace. The sin nature is still with us, but we can overcome it by choosing to live in the righteousness of Christ. Full deliverance is future.
1 Cor 15.9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
2 Cor 3.4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
2 Cor 11.30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
Philippians 3.12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Rom 7.22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Let's start with this one. This is not a Christian but a Jew under the law, trying to keep the law with his carnal nature. He is not born again.
When we come to Christ, as we see in the next chapter, the Spirit frees us from sin and death in his nature. Romans 8:2, but read Romans 8:1-9
Okay, chew on that and I'll be back with my tea.
But not *self-effort*...and it is disputable as to whether he is exercising *human effort*.
Because his labouring in context is according to the grace of God; and therefore it would be motivated by the Spirit rather than the flesh.
If that were the case, then his salvation would have in a sense relied on his works. So this is not a biblical statement.
Paul's salvation rested solely on what Christ did for him on the Cross; this was his only trust: not in his own righteousness; neither in any practical righteousness that he might live out as the result of being born again: but on the righteousness of Christ as it was imputed to him through faith in the Cross.
Your getting angry, and adding words, If you really want to make it simple, Love,forgiveness, peace,Joy, That is who God is.
Both. (for the one that you are opposed to, see 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:20).
Yes, this is one interpretation. I don't agree. This is Paul talking about his inward struggle. He is defining the "Law of God" generically, as in the principles of the Law of Moses translated into NT morality.
To be honest, I don't see how you can see it otherwise. Why am I not surprised that the clearest possible statement Paul made on his internal conflicts are completely misinterpreted and misrepresented?
Rom 7.7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting.
Paul is here saying that he had lived under the Law of Moses, not as an authentic covenant, but as a system still being used by the Jewish People, who had not believed in Jesus. Paul had lived under that Law, and had discovered that no matter how hard he tried, he felt convicted as a sinner. He had been "fighting against the goads" (Acts 26.14).
Paul had found himself hating Stephen even though he had read the Law, which forbade him from hating people. All were to be treated fairly, even showing compassion to the foreigner.
So Paul knew, even while he was still under the Law, that he was a sinner. The Law of God, whether still in covenant or not, condemned all men as sinners. They all needed sacrifices of atonement, to continue in covenant relationship with God.
Paul, while he was yet under the Law, did not always have the proper knowledge of the Law, that he was enslaved to the sin nature, and in bondage to hate for Christianity. And yet, the Law would press upon his conscience, and he became aware of his sin and hatred.
For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
Paul then translates his non-Christian experience under the Law to God's continuing principles of God's Law under the New Testament. Paul continues to want to obey God's Law, even as it is inspired by Christ. And his mind is fully on board this decision.
However, the sin nature remains in Paul and the same effect takes place as under the Law, sin emerges from the sin nature. But there is a difference! Now Paul has the Christian nature within him, and even though the sin nature appears, Christ's grace overwhelms the tendency to sin and Christ's righteousness emerges to demonstrate the activity of grace in his life. There is no longer condemnation as a failure under God's Law, but instead, justification by his having entered into the eternal righteousness of Christ, who forgives all sin.
The Law did bring forgiveness, but it could not bring eternal life. The righteousness of Christ brings with it eternal redemption and eternal life. This is freedom from the condemnation that has prevented us from having eternal life.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
False, I quoted the Scriptures, and it said what it said. You are trying to reinterpret the Bible by imposing your own brand of theology upon it. It is only *you* who claim that "works" cannot involve human choice. The Bible says quite another thing!
We both agree that Christ's works alone worked Salvation for mankind. That is not in dispute.
Neither am I saying that Paul was trusting "in his own righteousness." I never said that!
Nor did Paul say he was trusting in his own "practical righteousness" with respect to earning his Salvation. This has nothing to do with our "earning" Salvation!
Rather, I'm talking about the role *we must play* in participating in the gift of Salvation. 1st, we must *choose* to receive it. Once we've received the free gift of a New Nature from Christ, we can *choose* to exercise righteousness that comes from Christ.
You seem to think that anytime a man *chooses* anything he is attempting to "earn" his Salvation? But the Bible plainly *requires* that men makes these *choices!*
We must *choose* Salvation, and we must *choose* to be righteous even after we've received a New Nature from Christ. This is not *earning* Salvation. Rather, this is our necessary *participation* in the free gift of Salvation, which Christ alone earned!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Who does Paul say is now free?
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
I beg to differ with this.
If you are speaking of the ceremonial law, then there is this:
Heb 10:1, For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2, For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3, But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
If you are speaking of the moral law, I am not certain how you think it might bring forgiveness. It is written,
Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Obviously, Paul is giving us his own personal experience. He began under the Law, an experience in which he intermittently felt he was free of the Law, not being conscious of his sin.
But then Paul came to his senses, because his knowledge of the Law convicted him. He was fighting against the goads of Christ.
So Paul then continues to apply his experience under the Law as a non-Christian to his experience with God's eternal Law as a Christian. These are two distinct applications of the "Law of God," one the eternal Law of God for man, that we live in His image, and the other having to do with the old covenant made through Moses.
Under the Law Paul was condemned and had no hope for eternal life, nor did he have the New Nature that Christ offers, to live without the Law and yet under the Law of Christ. To come under God's covenant affords us a *new nature.*
While under the Law, Paul had not been under a covenant with God, since the Law was passe. And so, Paul was left without a new nature and with only the condemnation of death.
Paul was arguing that as a non-Christian and as a Christian he had the same experience of God's Law and the sin nature. However, having come under a new covenant with Christ, Paul was able to experience both a new nature and a liberation from the condemnation of death.
What scriptures did you quote?
You seem to be wanting to confuse the issue. I never said that works don't involve human choice. I am saying that works don't save; per Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9, ad Titus 3:4-7.
However, this exercising of righteousness is not what saves us.
What saves us is faith in the blood of the Cross. Mixing my choosing to live righteously with this is to make works a catalyst for salvation; a doctrine that is categorically denied in the word of the Lord.
I run into this all the time, and I would be surprised if I hadn't had a similar experience and an enlightenment to follow. We've been inundated with a certain kind of Christianese for so long that we can hardly get back to what the Scriptures were really saying!
The Law provided a temporary means of atonement for sin. And by that I'm referring to animal sacrifices. God accepted those sacrifices, and the faith by which they were offered. It afforded a very real, and a very substantial covenant relationship between God and Israel.
God was *not* playing games with Israel. He truly offered a relationship with them, and acceptance of them, and truly did bless them for their obedience.
It is the same thing under the New Covenant, except now we depend on the sacrifice of Christ, and experience, as a result, eternal life. This is the difference between "temporary atonement" and "eternal atonement"--my words.
Romans 7:14-25 is Paul's use of the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION; as he identifies himself as carnal in order to define carnality in order that his readers may understand where they are in their state of mind and also that they may seek and find the solution for that state of mind. He becomes as the weak in order to gain the weak (1 Corinthians 9:22).
It should be clear in the holy scriptures that there are two kinds of Christian set forth...the carnal and the spiritual (see 1 Corinthians 3:1-3).
That Paul is not carnal but spiritual when he writes Romans 7:14-25 is clear because he at that time was penning holy scripture.
2Pe 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
It should be clear in the holy scriptures that there are two kinds of Christian set forth...the carnal and the spiritual (see 1 Corinthians 3:1-3).
That Paul is not carnal but spiritual when he writes Romans 7:14-25 is clear because he at that time was penning holy scripture.
2Pe 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
It seems to me that you have completely ignored Hebrews 10:4 to be able to make these statements.
You think *I'm* confusing the issue?
I've repeatedly said I don't believe we earn our own Salvation. What about that is "confusing?"Who said it was? Please quote where I said it was? It seems to me that at some point you find the language I use as expressive of this? You seem to think, by the language I use, that I'm saying a choice to do good works is "earning my own Salvation?"
You must be arguing with somebody else? I've *never* said we can earn our own Salvation. But I have indeed said we must choose to do good works. Choosing to do good works is *not* earning Salvation! We must choose to believe. We must choose to embrace Christ's good works for our own (except for the work of redemption). And we must choose to do good works in Christ after we've received a New Nature. Choosing thus to do good works is *not* earning my own Salvation! Only you are saying this!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree. When Paul was under the law he knew he was a sinner.
Is that your interpretation of Romans 7:9-12?
Paul is talking about mankind before the Law of Moses and after the Law of Moses.
Yes, under the law, the sin nature remains intact.
That does not take place until chapter 8. (At the end of chapter 7 we see Who will end the "struggle" to be totally righteous.) Verse 25, the last verse of chapter 7 is the conclusion of mankind under the law. "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-9
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
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