Since Noah, David, and Abraham were born again by looking forward to Messiah's coming, their righteousness was not as "filthy rags."
intentional sins?
- Thread starter Randy Kluth
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
He just forgot to add the quote. It was not a lie. This is beneath you: "Half the truth is as bad as a lie."
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
When did the law come? 1300 years from that time. Was Paul speaking about himself? When in his life was he not under the law having been born from the tribe of Benjamin? The "I" is a teaching method, but in this case it is obvious he is speaking of himself as a human being/mankind.
No, the LAW did not make him alive. The Law condemned him. That is why the Law is called the law of sin and death. People were not condemned for their sins before the Law; that is when people were alive. That is why Cain was not killed. But after the Law, if you broke one of the Ten Commandments you were put to death.
He kept the Commandments, which is why he was blameless. But still one commandment was not an action, but when committed, condemned him to death. Coveting is in the mind. That is why it is the only Commandment mentioned in the whole chapter.
Why is there no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? It is because Jesus took away our sin that condemned us, that made us a slave to the devil. How? By giving us His own Spirit to live in our nature. Because of His Spirit we are not in the carnal nature anymore. We just can't grieve of quench the Spirit to remain abiding in Jesus. And those who abide in Jesus KEEP His commandments. 1 John 3:21-24.
That is a man-made doctrine. We do not have to wait until we are dead to be glorified.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Do we also have to wait like our body to be glorified in our spirit? No. Glorified has to do with becoming like Christ. This we do now, as we have already been given the mind of Christ, and partake of the divine nature, no longer the carnal nature of sin. Sin has been taken out of us once and for all. We do not have any desire to sin while in the Spirit. Since I was filled with the Spirit 43 years ago, I haven't been out of it. It is not something you slip in and out of like some believe. (I'm not referring to you as I don't know what you believe on that matter.)
Sorry, I don't know anybody who would agree with this interpretation. In context, Paul is talking about his own personal experience with the Law--not about the giving of the Law at Sinai!
You're getting your terminology wrong because you're taking words out of their context. A word means different things in different contexts! The Law did bring life. The Bible says so. Obedience to the Law brought life! "You shall live by the Law," the Bible says.
This was talking about the blessings of the Law, given on Mt. Gerazim, and not about mortality. On the other hand, the Bible elsewhere speaks of "life" in the context of Eternal Life. In that case, the word "life," in context, refers to Eternal Life. It is just an abbreviated form of the same.
If we mix the blessings of the Law with Eternal Life, we confuse two distinct and different definitions of "life." You need to keep them straight!
Paul said his "blamelessness" under the Law included "persecuting the church." Do you really think he was "blameless" because he persecuted the Church? That was *not* keeping the Law! Paul was arguing that he viewed himself as blameless when he was a non-Christian because in keeping the Law he thought his job was to defend the Law, when it wasn't! This is a rhetorical argument, indicating that the condition in which Paul saw himself as blameless did not really make him blameless!
Not really correct. Jesus forgave us "while we were yet sinners." And he is *still willing to forgive us* when we still sin! John, in 1 John 1, argues that we are still sinners, and still are forgiven *when we confess our sins,* and not when we become sinless, or the sin nature is exterminated completely.
That is false. Glorification takes place in the resurrection, when we become immortal.
You're ignoring the fact Paul is referring to a past work of Christ that is providing for things that have not yet taken place. He died to forgive us so that in the resurrection we will be glorified.
We are told that the sin nature has lost its power to condemn us, preventing us from obtaining eternal life. But we are *not* told that we no longer have a sin nature. 1 John 1 denies that.
Nor are we told that we are glorified "in our spirit." Where on earth did you get that doctrine from?
I'm happy to hear you've been walking with the Lord for that long. I'm also happy that you're on here, testing your teaching, because I think bad teachers have passed along bad teaching. And I think you can increase your effectiveness if you correct some of these errors. And if you don't want to pass on errors to others, you need to deal with them, if the Lord so shows you.
We do, having received the New Nature, desire to serve the Lord. The Lord's burden is "light." But we do, in fact, have a sin nature, and fight it all the time. When you come up against spiritual warfare, you will feel the pressure to succumb to your lower nature. But if you know what you're up against, you stand a better chance of succeeding.
Nowhere in Scriptures do you read that "sin has been taken out of us once and for all." Rather, the *sentence of sin," committing us to death, has been removed once and for all--a very different statement! But since sin is still in us, we have to live by the grace of Christ, and ask his pardon whenever we sin. And we do all sin!
Notice the context given to this statement by the apostle Paul:
Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
In context, the man that continueth in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them, shall live in them.
Think about what this might mean in an inverse statement...for that statement is the basic statement of Galatians 3:10.
This is false teaching concerning what is written in Galatians 3:21; in order to try to get around the plain meaning of what that verse says.
The blessings of the law does not = life. It is not just that it does not = eternal life. But Galatians 3:21 says specifically that the law does not impart "life".
No he didn't.
Likewise, you have certain errors in your doctrine that need correcting.
Yes, take heed to your own advice; and pray the Lord that He might show you the nature of your doctrinal errors.
I'm afraid I need a reference for that one...for in all of my reading of the Bible I don't think that I have come across such a statement.
entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Your interpretation is subjective. There is no time when Paul was without the Law. If Jesus was born under the law in Galatians 4:4, then Paul was also.
But one thing is right. There are not too many who believe the gospel anymore since the Reformation. It has been so twisted, after centuries, the wrong is seen as right, and the right is seen as heresy.
I'm not talking about "blessings" and neither is Paul in Romans 7. He is talking about the Ten Commandments, the ministry of death. Did you know that is what Paul called the Law?
I agree. But I brought that up because of you saying Paul had mixed feelings concerning the law, and I told you when he was a Pharisee he thought himself blameless.
That is a misquote, I don't know to what purpose. Romans 5:8 says Jesus DIED for us while we were yet sinners. That death still needs to be applied, and that is when we repent.
Once when we truly repent of our weakness to sin, Jesus forgives us of our past sins. But then He gives us His Spirit to keep us free from sinning in the future. As I said before it is not a sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent; living in constant defeat to a carnal nature that Jesus left us in. NO! He gave us His Spirit to create a new nature. We are born again, and MUST be born again to be saved. The new nature has no desire to sin, thus it abhors sin, and cannot do it. 1 John 3:9. There is no need to keep repenting for sins you are not doing. 1 John 1:9 is not a card to be played over and over, but just once to become a Christian. We were sinners, but after coming to Christ we are no longer slaves to sin, but are children of God. If you don't know that, then you don't know the gospel. The truth shall set you free. John 8:32-36.
You are confusing our spirits with our bodies that must put on immortality after death. Our nature is already taking on glorification as we go through the steps in 2 Peter 1:5-10. You've just never been taught the truth before.
Romans 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
LOL I was thinking the same about you. You are quoting false teachers from the past, so their teachings need to be eradicated from your mind, and you need to start over and ask the Author of His Word to teach you what He means.
Are you going by your own experience? My experience is that the Word of God is true, and the truth shall make you free.
1 John 3
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Amen! He has.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you quench the Spirit in you that deters you from sin, and go ahead and willfully sin, the wages of sin is still death.
Hebrews 10:26-31
Good night, brother.
It's difficult to understand Paul because he is covering a lot of territory by relying on "shorthand," hoping that we will study to properly understand him in context. By "faith" Paul is referring to "faith in Christ for Salvation." In short, Paul just calls it "faith."
To live by the Law, Paul is obviously referring to the blessings of the Law, as given on Mt. Gerazim, which had nothing whatsoever to do with Eternal Life. So Paul is arguing that the Law, as much as it brought blessings and temporal life, did not bring Eternal Life.
He was not arguing that the Law was bad, and did not bring righteousness. Rather, he was arguing that something more than observance of the Law was needed to bring about Eternal Life, and that was Christ.
No, this is *not* false teaching. It just shows how much help you need in understanding the Law.
You have a lot to learn. David sang the praises of the Law because it indeed provided both spiritual life and spiritual blessings. This was a fulfillment of the blessings of obedience to the Law, which were uttered on Mt. Gerazim.
You better re-read it then. That's what my Bible says. Paul included in his expression of zeal for the Law the persecution of Christianity. You have to understand how rhetorical language works. It does not do all the explaining for you, but relies on you following the argument.
The argument was that Paul sought observance of the Law. Ironically, it led to breaking the Law. As such, the most determined observance of the Law meant, for Paul, complete failure. His Jewish credentials meant nothing at all. Only Christ matters with respect to obtaining eternal life. Not even the best, the most zealous, follower of the Law can obtain that apart from receiving Christ.
You should show more respect for those who have studied the Scriptures for many years. I respect you--I just see what I *believe* are many errors. I don't wish to fall out of fellowship, and devolve into negative exchanges.
Col 2.13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
This indicates just what I said, and which you think is *strange.* I said:
Rather, the *sentence of sin," committing us to death, has been removed once and for all--a very different statement!
This is true. Sin and the sin nature has not been exterminated from our life. That is not Salvation in the present age, but rather, the thing our present Salvation leads to in the coming age! Our death sentence, denying us Eternal Life, has been removed. But the sin nature will not be removed until we die. After all, that's why Man was condemned to death to begin with, to terminate our sin nature.
Complete Sanctification is attainable only in the resurrection. Christ obtained for us Sanctification in only a limited sense in the present, and only in the final sense in the future. What you're teaching is largely rejected in the Church. Sinless Perfection is taught by who today?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Who that is respected in the Church teaches what you teach here? Paul is talking about himself--that is *not* subjective. But your insistence that he is *not* talking about himself is absurd!
Yes, these are perilous times. Get out your war armor. Just don't think I'm the enemy. Both of us are trying to get things straight.
I know a lot more than you think I know. Paul is blending the generic "Law of God" with the "Law of Moses." That is obvious from the context. He is also using "the Law" as "Jewish religion," even when it is no longer a covenant with God.
True.
AFAIK, this is just how it reads. Jesus died while we were still sinners. How else could it read? You need to adjust to the Bible, and not try to make the Bible adjust to you!
Yes, we receive a new nature so that we are in covenant with God and regularly live by Christ's Spirit. This doesn't at all mean we don't still have a sin nature.
This doesn't mean we get into the New Nature and back out of it, and then back into the New Nature, and then back out of it again. No, we are given a New Nature to live in it and to stay in it. But while we have the New Nature, we do slip into sins and carnal activities because we still live in the body of sin. The sin nature is still with us, as well.
Our Salvation is not dependent upon our getting rid of the Body of sin immediately. That will happen in the future. Rather, our Salvation depends upon our opting for the New Nature that Christ died to give us--one that assures us of Eternal Life.
You are confusing our spirits with our bodies that must put on immortality after death. Our nature is already taking on glorification as we go through the steps in 2 Peter 1:5-10. You've just never been taught the truth before.
[/QUOTE
I've never been taught the supposed "glorification of the human spirit in our present mortal bodies" because that doctrine doesn't exist. It is unbiblical.
That doesn't teach the glorification of the human spirit in the present life of the Christian! Glorification usually refers to the state of the Christian in the resurrected body!
LOL I was thinking the same about you. You are quoting false teachers from the past, so their teachings need to be eradicated from your mind, and you need to start over and ask the Author of His Word to teach you what He means.
Are you going by your own experience? My experience is that the Word of God is true, and the truth shall make you free.
1 John 3
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Amen! He has.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you quench the Spirit in you that deters you from sin, and go ahead and willfully sin, the wages of sin is still death.
Hebrews 10:26-31
Good night, brother.
Alright.
Actually, in Galatians 3:10, Paul is speaking of the curse of the law.
It is, in fact, false teaching; intended to undermine the plain meaning of Galatians 3:21.
Nope. It is in Philippians 3:1-6, correct? persecuting the church is listed as different from Paul's blamelessness concerning the law in that passage.
I also have studied the holy scriptures for many years; probably more extensively than you and with more of a focus on the epistles and therefore the doctrines of salvation in the Bible.
I would appreciate it if you would use scriptural language to make your points; for we are told to do so in 2 Timothy 1:13 (kjv).
2Ti 1:13, Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
If anyone goes to the link that I gave, they will see that the exchange was partially between myself and you; and that you did not succeed at winning the argument; but rather lost.
Here it is again:
entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.
Certainly not me. I do not teach that we are sinless, but that sin is rendered dead within us so that we do not have to commit sin.
Consider Romans 6:6 and Colossians 2:11.
"The body of sin", "the body of the sins of the flesh" is both destroyed (kjv) and cut away from us as an operation of spiritual circumcision.
This is not to say that 1 John 1:8 is null and void.
But it is to say that sin is *as good as* eradicated from our lives; in that the element of sin is rendered dead and that therefore we don't any longer have to obey it.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Paul being over 1300 years old at that writing is absurd. He cannot be talking about himself, but all of us throughout history. It is a teaching.
That is why I call you brother, brother!
What is straight is that Paul is teaching on the Old Covenant vs, the New Covenant from Romans 1 through Romans 8. The law was a major portion of that teaching, and Romans 7 was what it was like under the law. And Romans 8 is the New Covenant of the Spirit. We are free from the Old Covenant, and live under the New Covenant.
Romans 7 is about the Ten Commandments, not the eternal laws of God. It is the Ten Commandments that contained the commandment to not "covet" that is mentioned. It is the Old Covenant. Exodus 34:28.
You said, Jesus forgave us while we were yet sinners. I corrected that and said that it reads Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. Our sins are not forgiven until we repent. That is when all our past sins are forgiven, and taken away, not just covered.
(That is one thing we haven't discussed. Do you believe the blood of Jesus covers our sins, or takes them away.)
What does AFAIK mean?
Yes, it does. 1 John 3:9
You are believe the defeatist theology of the Reformation that "we will always sin." No, that is a slap in the face to Jesus. He came to To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness.
A true Christian DOES NOT indulge the carnal nature. It is dead. A true Christian partakes of the divine nature.
You are saying that like it is a given. It is not. We do not have to "slip into sins and carnal activities." Our body has nothing at all to do with our nature. Only our spirit has to do with our nature: either of the Holy Spirit, or of the devil.
I agree, and stay there. Not slipping back like a dog to his own vomit
Glorification has to do with perfection. Jesus said for US to be perfect, as His Father in Heaven is perfect. Modern theology teaches against this as you just did.
I should have gone to be an hour ago. Oh well, I'm going now. Good night again, brother.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
The Spirit of Christ would teach us today, not sinless perfection; but entire sanctification.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.
The scripture has concluded all (including the born again; for "all" means "all") under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:22.
For all
have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God. Romans 3:23.
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Really,
1Jn_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Done finished, according to you Jesus only did half the work,?? I guess when He said " it is finished" it really wasnt and HE was lying???
That is contrary to 1 John 1. We do have sin. Denying this, you make God a liar.
With respect to Eternal Life, the Law prohibited us from partaking of it. The Law could bring us temporal blessings, but not eternal life. It could bring us righteousness, but not eternal righteousness.
It could only bring a personal (and false) righteousness that we might be able to boast about. "mine own righteousness, which is of the law." This is Isaiah 64:6 righteousness.
The only true righteousness is that which we can't boast about, "the righteousness which is of God by faith." (Revelation 19:8 righteousness).
Philippians 3:9.
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