You may be a fundy atheist if...

(kriss)
We are not Christians because of fearWe are Christians because of the promise of the rewards.
I don't see a huge distinction between those things.(kriss)
.......what you say about exposing us to other points of view is really ridiculous and arrogant thinking.
Actually I was refering to exposeing myself to other points of view by hearing your beliefs.(kriss)
Whether you ever cop to it or not is really why you are here. We have something that a part of you desires yet you can not rationalize it, so you want to question it. To believe if you say it isn't so, its not, no matter how much you say it, you want prove it isn't so. Thats you're real desire to be able to prove God doesn't exist, but you can't, so you want us to prove he does that takes the pressure off you.
None of this is true. I told you why I am here. If you don't believe what I say then there is not more I can do.(kriss)
....It is the same with God we may not yet be able to prove it to your satisfaction, But when Christ is standing on the Mt. it will be proof to all you who doubted.The only difference is in the rewards you and I will receive because I believed he loved and comforted me and told me it would be all right before I physically saw him....that's faith
You are right that "Christ standing on the Mt." would be proof enought for me to believe. You are also right that you can not currently prove the existance of God to my satisfaction. I have always been a very rationally minded person. Why should I be punished for the way my mind has been wired since birth?(kriss)
We are 100% sure you will be proven wrong ,Don't you wish you had that degree of sureity you were right ?
My experence has been that being 100% sure of something is the greatest obstacle to learning there is. I try to question everything I think I know.

Hey radio. I don't know about anyone else but I am glade you are here. It is nice to have an atheist come to me instead of me coming to them. I want to start from what you stated yesterday
It's simply that, the conclusion my brain has made, based on all available evidence, is that there is no reason to believe in the existence of any god.
Have you really gone through all of the available evidence? And with all the available evidence have you understood it fully? Then there is the unavailable evidence that you must take into account. Once you have considered that think about all the things that we as humans haven't even stumbled upon. We don't know or understand all of our universe let alone the earth. Our brains are still mostly a mystery. Then you have to take in every true Christian’s personal relationships with God. I talk to him every day and he talks back as a part of my relationship with God. I bet if you ask some of these other folks on this website they will tell you the same thing. Then your must remember the fact that our personal perception can twist facts and we may also miss things because we are not looking for them. If you have taken all of theses things in account then I would ask you to reexamine your statement quoted above. I say this because it isn’t just a trivial matter so be certain about what you truly believe and know why you believe it. If you truly want to find God just go look for him and He will find you. If you don’t want to look for him be truthful with yourself. Say I don’t want to know God or I don’t like God or that I don’t care. Still God has sent you here even if you don’t think He exist. Why else would you be here? To debate? You can do that anywhere. So I challenge you to go gather all the evidence for and against God. See which side makes more since. Mind you this isn’t a simple task if you do it right.

Quote]Quote:Originally Posted by kriss We are not Christians because of fearWe are Christians because of the promise of the rewards.

I don't see a huge distinction between those things.

There is a huge distinction the rewards/punishments here are not tangible thing but rather the intangible akin to the difference of happiness vs sadness or Guilt vs innocent.

My experience has been that being 100% sure of something is the greatest obstacle to learning there is. I try to question everything I think I know

I will give you that 100% surety can be a two edged swordI am sorry if I misjudged your intentions but you have to understand you are not the first atheist here most want to prove to us God does not exist or insist we prove God exits to meet their unattainable expectations. Neither can be done to others satisfaction. If you are here to learn about us and how we can base our lives on something/someone we have no scientific proof exits I find that much to your credit.I can only attempt to explain it to you as intangible things are hard to explain assume you gathered a group of parents together and asked each to prove to you they loved their child. The only way they would have to do this is to tell you what they do for their child that they believe proves their love. Whether or not you are convinced would depend solely upon what answer you were willing to accept as denoting love.This is much the way the Christian feels, God has provided each of us with something we need/want that to us denotes love. That might be something different for each person,thus you may get 1000 different answers to the question. Just like in any human family the more you feel loved the more you love them and the harder you try to make them happy with your choices in life.It is the same in Gods family he tells us what makes him happy and we love doing it because of what he gives back to us. The more we give the more we get. Part of the miracle we see in this is that God seems to read our hearts and give us what we need not what we always want the same way a good parent doesn't let a child eat candy for dinner even if that's what he wants. The problem with trying to share this with someone who hasn't felt/experienced it is like trying to explain to someone who grew up as an orphan what it feels like to have had loving parents. He can not grasp a concept he never experienced.Now assume for a moment you were the child that grew up in this loving family and your parents died does that make your love or theirs any less real?Would you now feel they hadn't loved you because they were no longer here? Would you believe they never loved you or you them because someone said they are not here there fore they don't/never existed?That is the way the christian feels once we opened the door of our hearts and minds to God the love we felt was as real as the parents who in the above example are no longer here.I hope this helps you to understand a little more.

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RadioQuote"Being an atheist was never a choice for me. I no more chose to be an atheist then you chose to believe that these words are underlined. It's simply that, the conclusion my brain has made, based on all available evidence, is that there is no reason to believe in the existence of any god. I could not "choose" to believe in god if I wanted to. It would be like choosing to believe that 2=3."ReplyIf I may ask,what do you believe?What available evidence gives you reasons not to believe in God?And I would like to say that,to me, not believing in God is like 2=3.Looking forward to your reply

radio... I wasn't being rude to you, I was making a point and once again you have side stepped that point and it is WHAT ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD... You will say anything to avoid answering the question how do you explain theomnicietcy of the WORD OF GOD.?... it having fortold so many actualities that came to pass 1000's of years later. I called you a liar becasue you say you have listened to all we have said to you and you have answered them... This one thing you have not, because you have no answer, but you are really good as sidestepping the hard point and going personal. I would call you the same thing inperson as I served you a cocktail and canape'.. because ,yes I am nice person , but I call them like I see them, on the net or on my patio.

(betchevy)
I called you a liar becasue you say you have listened to all we have said to you and you have answered them...
Where have I made such a claim?It's not possible for me to address every point everyone brings up. I try to do my best to address those that you feel are the most important.(betchevy)
but you are really good as sidestepping the hard point and going personal.
Where have I made a personal attack on anyone?(betchevy)
...WHAT ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD... how do you explain the omnicietcy of the WORD OF GOD.?... it having fortold so many actualities that came to pass 1000's of years later.
So this is the point you wanted addressed? You could have just said so. My answer is that what you see as a prophecy coming true, I see as a coincidence, and not a verry unlikely one at that. You know the Bible is not the only text to claimed to tell the furture. Do you believe things like norstrodomas prophecies and horoscopes to be of devine inspriation or just vaugely worded concidences?

(n2thelight)
If I may ask,what do you believe?What available evidence gives you reasons not to believe in God?
It's not a question of evidence aginst the existance of God, but the lack of evidence in support of the existance of God.(n2thelight)
And I would like to say that,to me, not believing in God is like 2=3.
That good, you should be able to understand my point of view, and how it would be impossible for me to choose to believe in God. I could not choose to believe in God any more then you could choose not to.

Hello RadioAgain I ask,what do you believe?Quote"That good, you should be able to understand my point of view, and how it would be impossible for me to choose to believe in God. I could not choose to believe in God any more then you could choose not to."ReplyActually I don't understand,because to me,the exsistance of God is in the exsistance of you,me and everyone else,to put it another way to not believe in God is to say that you are here by chance.I believe in me,is the reason why I believe in God,so to me its not a choice,but a fact,for the simple fact that I am.

(n2thelight;7990)
Again I ask,what do you believe?
As far as what? That a pretty broad question.(n2thelight)
Actually I don't understand,because to me,the exsistance of God is in the exsistance of you,me and everyone else,to put it another way to not believe in God is to say that you are here by chance.I believe in me,is the reason why I believe in God,so to me its not a choice,but a fact,for the simple fact that I am.
This was the point I was makeing, that for me, (and you apperently) belief in God is not a choice. Which seems at odds with your eariler post when you said "Every choice has a consequence". You and I agree that belief in God, (for the two of us at least) is not a choice.Perhapse, as betchevy put it I have a "poorly functioning brain", and I am not capable of comeing to the same conclusion that you and everyone else on this forum can see so clearly. But again that is not a choice. I only have 1 brain with which I was born with and if does not function correctly to come to (what you see as) the obviously correct answer, there is not much I can do about that, is there? Would not seem to make sense to punish someone for something beyond their control.

RadioLet me see if I can put it another way,hope this makes sense to yaI don't think its a choice to believe in God,but I think its a choice not to believe.

radiofreeYou obviously have little knowledge/understanding of God and his word (I don't mean reading a passage here and there out of context) so my question is how can you state you don't believe what you don't know? Would not a truer statement be you don't know much about it, dont want to understand it , you will just assume all your uneducated opinions are right and will hear nothing else. Is that not the same thing as me saying I don't believe in gravity because I cant see it, dont understand it and have no knowlege about it dont what to learn about there fore it must not excist and I'm right reguardless of what anyone says

RadioYou say my question was broad as far as what you believe,can you give me a broad answer?Now if your brain is functioning improperly,then you will not be held accountable,but from reading your posts' it seems you are doing just fine,but I can't judge.Do you or have you read the Bible?

(n2thelight;7992)
RadioLet me see if I can put it another way,hope this makes sense to yaI don't think its a choice to believe in God,but I think its a choice not to believe.
That is impossible. They are the two sides of a single "choice". If one side is not voluntary then neither is the other.

(kriss;7994)
radiofreeYou obviously have little knowledge/understanding of God and his word (I don't mean reading a passage here and there out of context) so my question is how can you state you don't believe what you don't know? Would not a truer statement be you don't know much about it, dont want to understand it , you will just assume all your uneducated opinions are right and will hear nothing else. Is that not the same thing as me saying I don't believe in gravity because I cant see it, dont understand it and have no knowlege about it dont what to learn about there fore it must not excist and I'm right reguardless of what anyone says
I would say I know as much about Christanity as the average person who attends church on a week baisis. I would bet that I know much more about Christanity, then you do about Hinduism, Sikhism, or Buddhism, all religions which you have rejected as false.The average person on the street who professes a belief in God probably spends little or no time studying any religion. So belief in God is not really dependent on the study of a religion is it?

I know my sister Kriss enuf to answer this....YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.....kriss knows alot about all those religions and we are not talking about religion or "Church Christianity" we are asking you about the BIBLE the WORD OF GOD... that black covered book that starts with Genesis and ends in Revelation... Gods love letter to his children... which I am afraid to inform you is YOU too... He created you and you will go back to HIM ...good luck

I have to add this... I know you think I have been hard on you, I have not been kind... but its like you are this little kid wanting to play in the street..and you won't respond to cadjoling, nice "come on now... sweety.."aint working...But all of us who have answered these replies do this because we really care about YOU. We know you come here to reek havok, make us angry nad push our buttons but we love you or we wouldn't respond at all, we'd say "hey ,let him bust hell wide open, no skin off my nose"...but really I do and I believe everyone else here really cares about you and what you will face when you die and your spirit body has to pay for what your flesh body has done.

RadioWhatever we say can't make you believe,so speaking for me I feel its a waste of time discussing this, and being that you choose not to tell me what it is you do believe,I'll just take that to mean you believe in nothing.Matthew 7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."This is referring to Proverbs 9: 7; "He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: And he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot." blot - 3971 m'uwm usually muwm-blemish, spot, defect a) used of physical defect used of moral stainIf you go out to some stiffed necked drunk, and try to give your pearls of wisdom to him, he is liable to set you back on your rear, and make your nose a blot. When you try to preach to a wicked man, he will mock you for even trying. He doesn't have any sense or knowledge concerning God's Word.Proverbs 9:8; "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee:" When we criticize a mocker of Scripture, he in turn, turns that scorn back on us. The purpose in God's plan is to convict and make the sinner condemn himself.; to see his own sin, and repent of those sins. This is how it should be: Proverbs 9:9; "Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: Teach a just man, and he will increase in learning." Spend your time where it counts, and the Scriptures are ready to be received.Proverbs 9:10; "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: And the knowledge of the holy is understanding." Applied common sense is what most of the understanding of God'sWord consists of.Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened ."The subject is God's Word, and your eye being able to see, or understand what is written in that Word. This is describing how you gain wisdom, and knowing God and His plan is wisdom. You have to go to that Word, before you can seek, and the knocking is the asking for help by the right sources. It is keeping the Word in true perspective, and rightly dividing it for the message God is relating to us. When you knock on His door, and ask Him, the Holy Spirit of God, will come in and open your eyes of understanding, and He will reveal Himself to you.Matthew 7:8 "For everyone that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall open."If you ask for understanding and wisdom, you will get it. The level of understanding will be at the level that God sees your ability to understand. God will give you what He wants you to have, and it is His Spirit that will allow you to see the truths. What you see, is what you will be accountable to Him for. This is a promise from God, and it comes from Proverbs 8:17; "I love them that love me; And those that seek me early shall find me."Matthew 7:9 "Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?"This verse can be applied in the physical sense and it is true. We can understand the love between a man and his son. However in the spiritual application, the bread is Jesus Christ, and the eternal life that Christ offers. The "stone" is the stumbling stone, that keeps the son for receiving the bread of life. A stone of stumbling could be many things that the son just could not handle, and could in the long run lead him astray. A freedom in the Lord to you, may be something that if practiced, would destroy your son.

(n2thelight;8017)
RadioWhatever we say can't make you believe,so speaking for me I feel its a waste of time discussing this, and being that you choose not to tell me what it is you do believe,I'll just take that to mean you believe in nothing.
Patience Being out numbered, there are a lot of replys for me to cover and I like to give them some thought and not hurry an answer.To answer your question, I suppose in some philosophical sense I would say I don't know (believe) anything 100%. On a more practical level there is plenty I believe in. I believe the grocery store I visited a few hours ago is still there, I believe the sun won't explode tommorow and I believe there is an apple on the desk in front of me, ect, ect, ect.I hope your going somewhere good with this. I look foward to your reply.

(betchevy;8009)
I know my sister Kriss enuf to answer this....YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.....kriss knows alot about all those religions....
First of all I didn't say I did know more, all I said I bet I know more. I don't know Kriss, perhapse she is some kind of expert in world religions, but unless she is, it's a good bet that I know more about Christanity then she does about Sikhism.Secondly, it does not matter how well you know Kriss, you don't know me at all and so are incapable of rendering judgement that she knows more.But I will believe you when you say that Kriss is an expert on world religions. Will you at least grant that I know more about Christanity then most people on this forum do about Sikhism?

(betchevy;8010)
I have to add this... I know you think I have been hard on you, I have not been kind... but its like you are this little kid wanting to play in the street..and you won't respond to cadjoling, nice "come on now... sweety.."aint working...
I am curious, would you be so hard on on a Jewish guy? After all, according to your belief, Jews are just as hell-bound as atheists are.(betchevy;8010)
We know you come here to reek havok, make us angry nad push our buttons.....
I sorry you feel the mere presence of an opposeing viewpoint is enought to "reek havok". I think I have debated as politely as possible. I have not even really attacked your belief, only defended my own.