Why the trinity?

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tigger 2

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Rev. 22:12-16 - Alpha and Omega

Let's see how numerous trinitarian-translated Bibles have rendered Rev. 22:8-16 by their uses of quotation marks (beginning and ending).

John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in verse :9). The angel apparently continues speaking in v:10). The angel may be still speaking in v:11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB, 1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in v:12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the NASB, JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the NKJV, NEB, REB, RSV, and NRSV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not!

The ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version; TEV; and WE show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible; the NJB; and Moffatt show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they all show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation 1:9, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 (found in the of Received Text) that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); Revised Webster Bible; and Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text).

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other uses of the title “Alpha and Omega” (Rev. 1:8 and 21:6) confirm this understanding.

“And He who sits on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’ .... And He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.’” - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

“Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as ‘sons of God [the Father].’ (Gal. 3:26; 4:6).” - pp. 412-413, Reasoning from the Scriptures, WBTS, 1985.

So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Your reply here suits your narrative BB but that is not the context of the text....that is abundantly clear.

I don't expect anyTrinitarian to believe me, but they certainly expect me to believe them no matter what is written down in the scriptures. For instance, The very first chapter of Revelations, verse one it says:"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John.
First of all this scripture doesn't say Jesus is God, nor does this scripture say this revelation originated from Jesus but God gave it to him. Also if anyone thinks that someone has to reveal anything to The True God that whatever revelation there is someone other than God has to give The True God that revelation, yeah right. Now when I post this, if someone does, if they're a Trinitarian, they will probably reason in some way that what God had written down is inaccurate implying that The True God isn't capable of having written down clearly what he means.
 

quietthinker

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I don't expect anyTrinitarian to believe me, but they certainly expect me to believe them no matter what is written down in the scriptures. For instance, The very first chapter of Revelations, verse one it says:"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John.
First of all this scripture doesn't say Jesus is God, nor does this scripture say this revelation originated from Jesus but God gave it to him. Also if anyone thinks that someone has to reveal anything to The True God that whatever revelation there is someone other than God has to give The True God that revelation, yeah right. Now when I post this, if someone does, if they're a Trinitarian, they will probably reason in some way that what God had written down is inaccurate implying that The True God isn't capable of having written down clearly what he means.
Oh dear Barney your logic bends anything to fit your narrative let alone your second guessing.
Isn't it better to deal with real events rather than imagined?

This is not about tit for tat nor is it about Johns introduction to Revelation. The scripture is straight forward regarding Jesus and the Father being one. This was Jesus's personal testimony as well as the writings of the Prophets.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Oh dear Barney your logic bends anything to fit your narrative let alone your second guessing.
Isn't it better to deal with real events rather than imagined?

This is not about tit for tat nor is it about Johns introduction to Revelation. The scripture is straight forward regarding Jesus and the Father being one. This was Jesus's personal testimony as well as the writings of the Prophets.

Well what you wrote up there was just lame. Lame excuses are typical of trinitarians though. I honestly didn't think you would admit that what was written down in Revelations1:1 was true which does prove this revelation didn't originate from Jesus but instead was given to Jesus by God. Proof that Jesus isn't God but Trinitarian will always say in some way that what is written down isn't true which they would be implying that it's impossible for God to communicate clearly with the written language what he clearly means. Revelations isn't the only book of the Bible that trinitarians do that either. You go ahead and make the lame statements like you did above. Me, I'm going to continue to believe what's written down no matter how much trinitarians are against it.
 

101G

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Let's see how numerous trinitarian-translated Bibles have rendered Rev. 22:8-16 by their uses of quotation marks (beginning and ending).

John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in verse :9). The angel apparently continues speaking in v:10). The angel may be still speaking in v:11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB, 1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in v:12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the NASB, JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.

All those quotes are in ERROR, and here's why. the only speaker is the Lord Jesus himself. supportive scripture, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
the angel is nothing but a "MESSENGER". the angel is not speaking his own prophecy, but was instructed him. everything concering the prophecy is the Lord Jesus himself. and as for John, this prophecy is not John's prophecy, but the Lord Jesus prophecy. John is only a recorder.

so your assessment is in error. Just Read Revelation 1:1

PICJAG.
 

Heart2Soul

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thanks for the reply, god formed Adam from the dust of the Earth. and "BREATHED" into him the breath of life. when a body meets a spirit, one become conscious or aware of one's surrounding.

see this answer your question before. one don't see with their eyes, nor their brains. conscious exist in the soul. the brain only present the data recieved by the eyes for interpretation by the soul. it is the soul that see, hear, tast, touch, smell and ..... understand. not our brains.
you might would need to understand this, "We're living in an Holographic Dimension"

it would be worth your while to view it.

PICJAG
Going to PM you.
 

101G

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So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.
we must disagree with that assessment.
the Alpha and Omega is the the Lord Jesus, God almighty himself. lets check the record. Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
"Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
this is the Lord Jesus correct, the First and the Last. well lets get one more scripture to be sure, Revelation 2:8 "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;". the one addessing the church at Smyrna is the Lord Jesus, the First and the Last.

so without a doubt, the Lord Jesus is the "FIRST" and the "LAST". NOW, WHAT ABOUT the Alpha and Omega whom you say is the Father. lets check the record, Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

WAIT, HOLDE IT. the Alpha and Omega whom you say is the Father is also the first and the last well tigger 2 it seems like you have an idenity problem here. for the Alpha and Omega (whom you say is the Father), is the first and the last (whom is JESUS). the same one person. also the "Lord" (who is Jesus), is the almighty. supportive scripture, Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." wow... :eek: the "Lord" is the almighty? yes, did you not here the ... Lord .. Jesus? scripture, John 13:13 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am." BINGO, there he is, the "Lord Jesus", the Almighty, and YES he is GOD, who is the Father in his diversified state. as one trinitarian put it, "the titles LORD and the Lord are interchangable"... (smile), well he is half right which means he is fully wrong. for the LORD all caps is the Almighty. Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." BINGO, THANK YOU.

PICJAG
 

101G

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Lets breakdown Revelation 1:1. God here is Jesus in his diversified state. lets understand. most christian think in Revelation 1:1 it's two persons standing or sitting next to each other. and one gives the other one something. well no, that's not correct. this is God in his diversified state. the Lord Jesus in his diversified state is "GOD'S OWN ARM". what is happening here in Revelation 1:1? answer, it is an act of God's OWN will within himself. so what do I mean? the question, why and how did God give his ownself, (his ARM) this revelation. this is REVEALED in GOD'S WORKING HIS OWN will. lets understand this Godly principle. scripture, Matthew 6:3 "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth”. since Jesus is God "own" right ARM, how can Jesus not KNOW?, is he not God?, yes. so what gives?

this is clearly seen in the Godly principle of Matthew 6:3. listen, "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth". question, how can one do something themself without knowing about it. your right hand, and left hand is a part of you. the answer, because you "will" it not to be known. sound strange? NO, Let’s see how God Almighty do it. scripture, Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more". see that? "and I (will) remember their sin no more". HOLD IT, how can almighty, all knowing God not remember? Answer, it's an act of his will. he wills "not" to remember. just as he said in Matthew 6:3b "let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth", "let" is an act of the will. so how do all of this relates to our Lord not knowing what this prophecy is about, and also knowing his return date. answer, Revelation chapter 5. our Lord, Jesus is sitting on the throne. what happens? the Spirit, (the Father, the Holy Ghost, Jesus, his ownself, his other diversdified state), comes and takes the book out of his hand, question, which hand did he take the book out of?, the right hand. Remember Matthew 6:3 "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth". by the Father, Jesus, (the Holy Spirit), in a state of diversity, taking the book out of his "RIGHT" hand he, the Lord Jesus, wills not to KNOW this prophecy, nor his return DATE. WHY? because the book contains all the information of what's the come. so, only the Father, (the Holy Spirit), Jesus diverse state as Spirit, knows because the father took the book out of his "RIGHT"..... "HAND". by taking the book... the prophecy, (which is written for you and I), only Jesus in his diverse state "WILLS" not to know these thgings. for he is mediator, and Comforter. for he speak not on his behalf nor of hisself, but will bring the things that was already told us.

so at Revelation 1:1 it is the Lord Jesus acting out his own will. :rolleyes: these metaphors and symbolism is there for our benifit to understand.

PICJAG.
 

quietthinker

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Well what you wrote up there was just lame. Lame excuses are typical of trinitarians though. I honestly didn't think you would admit that what was written down in Revelations1:1 was true which does prove this revelation didn't originate from Jesus but instead was given to Jesus by God. Proof that Jesus isn't God but Trinitarian will always say in some way that what is written down isn't true which they would be implying that it's impossible for God to communicate clearly with the written language what he clearly means. Revelations isn't the only book of the Bible that trinitarians do that either. You go ahead and make the lame statements like you did above. Me, I'm going to continue to believe what's written down no matter how much trinitarians are against it.
I'm aware you operate from categorising. It makes it easy to blanket folks with a category that way you don't need to deal with the specific.
Anyway, I'm not here to give you a hard time Barney....I know where you're coming from.....I don't find it convincing.
 

CharismaticLady

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why not let the Holy Ghost teach you, because if I would teach you, you will be out the door in no time.

but I'm willing to give it a try, .... :eek: ... (smile)... lol

the topic, "Why the trinity?"
because it never existed. it's false doctrine, man made.

to reprove a false doctrine one have to go to the source .... the beginning.

and the number 1 scripture that many trinity believers states at a beginning is,
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

so CharismaticLady, is this a trinity or your trinty here in Genesis 1:26 yes or no?

or... you can pick a scripture of your choosing ..... (smile) .. and we can discuss it.

PICJAG.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I'm aware you operate from categorising. It makes it easy to blanket folks with a category that way you don't need to deal with the specific.
Anyway, I'm not here to give you a hard time Barney....I know where you're coming from.....I don't find it convincing.

Like I said, I believe what's written down in Scripture. So if a Scripture says, "a revelation by Jesus Christ which God gave him." I believe what's written down. I don't believe that's a lie or a deception. You can call me what you want, say I categorize people to try to convince me what's written down isn't accurate, but that small part of that Scripture explicitly shows that revelation didn't originate from Jesus but God gave it to him, so God and Jesus are not the same person. For anyone to even try to imply what's written down isn't true, the only thing such people will ever convince me of, is that when it comes to such people I would never be able to agree with or trust what they believe to be the truth. Too many people disregard what is written down in the scriptures in favor of imperfect people's interpretations. I'm not going to disregard what's written down in the Scriptures just because someone wants me not to believe what's written down. Like I said such people can say or think what they want about me.
 

101G

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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
Thank you for that scripture, let me get you out the door quickly. 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." LOL, LOL, did you get that CharismaticLady? "THESE", not they, which woud have indicate a person, but no these are "TITLES" OF ONE PERSON. and to prove it out, lets look at the very next verse,

1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

now CharismaticLady is Water a person?... no, is blood a person? no. see your ERROR NOW? but it said the same thing as the verse above it said "THESE", not THEY, for if THEY, it would have indicate "PERSONS"..... :eek: now did the Holy Spirit tell you that, that this was a trinity of three persons? don't tell a fib.

see in 1 John 5:7 these, these, these are title of ONE PERSON who is in heaven, and verse 8 is the Witness to these title on earth as a man, for a MAN consist of WATER/Flesh, (a BODY), blood and spirit, LOL, LOL, LOL. man oh man whn will they ever learn. so no that scripture is not speaking about a trinity...... :D

your next scripture.... .

PICJAG.
 

CharismaticLady

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Thank you for that scripture, let me get you out the door quickly. 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." LOL, LOL, did you get that CharismaticLady? "THESE", not they, which woud have indicate a person, but no these are "TITLES" OF ONE PERSON. and to prove it out, lets look at the very next verse,

1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

now CharismaticLady is Water a person?... no, is blood a person? no. see your ERROR NOW? but it said the same thing as the verse above it said "THESE", not THEY, for if THEY, it would have indicate "PERSONS"..... :eek: now did the Holy Spirit tell you that, that this was a trinity of three persons? don't tell a fib.

see in 1 John 5:7 these, these, these are title of ONE PERSON who is in heaven, and verse 8 is the Witness to these title on earth as a man, for a MAN consist of WATER/Flesh, (a BODY), blood and spirit, LOL, LOL, LOL. man oh man whn will they ever learn. so no that scripture is not speaking about a trinity...... :D

your next scripture.... .

PICJAG.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness
 

101G

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Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness
thanks for the reply. second, another ERROR on yor part, which is very bad. let the Bible answer that scripture with scripture, and expose the false doctrine of the trinity. NOW THE VERY NEXT VERSE, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Well, well, well CharismaticLady, how did GOD go from "US" and "OUR", which is a plurality of one, (which I will explain later), to "HIS" and "HE" in the VERY NEXT VERSE, verse 27. the short answer... "diversity" to COME.
now, by the wisdom of God, (the Holy Ghost), JESUS who is Lord, we will expain why God said "US" and "Our" in verse 26, and why he said "HE" and "HIM" in verse 27
but first we will kill this trinity lie quickly and get you out the door quickly.... :D ... pay attention. you know that the Lord Jesus don't LIE correct. listen to what he said about any "US" or "OUR" when God the Spirit MADE ... man, listen up. while he was talking to the Pharisees concerning divorcement, in Matthews he, the Lord Jesus said, this. Matthew 19:3 "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?"
Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," WHAT? say that again, "he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," HE... HE.. made them, not us, or our. Uh O, he is ONE PERSON just like Genesis 1:27 stated. but is this "HE" God, the one God of Deuteronomy 6:4. well our brother Mark make it crystal clear as to the "HE" is that made man at the beginning. Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." BINGO, there the "HE" is... GOD. so it was God, the same one LORD of Deuteronomy 6:4 and the same ONE LORD who was by himself and alone according to Isaiah 44:24... (smile).

so CharismaticLady, your trinity is falling apart. so lets put the final nail in the coffin.

now if the Lord Jesus said that "HE" ONE PERSON made them male and female, don't you believe JESUS?.... :rolleyes: yes I guess you do.... (smile). now let answer the question WHY did God said "US" and "OUR" in verse 26?
ANSWER, God is a Plurility of ONE, what do we mean? Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
did you notice that word "ONE" in the verse. it's the Hebrew term,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

did you notice the second definition, 2. (as an ordinal) first God, in the befinning is an ordinal "one" of himself. and the reason why he said, "US" and "OUR", is that the IMAGE OF MAN is "ANOTHER" of his ownself. for the meaning of ADAM can also mean "ANOTHER". listen,
ADAM/MAN: H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119
WELL what you know ADAM/MAN can be translated as "ANOTHER". another? yes "ANOTHER" of "one" ownself. see the woman Eve is "ANOTHER" of the Man ADAM. the Lord Jesus is the "ANOTHER" of the LORD JESUS "HIMSELF, to Come in Flesh. see how Lord and LORD is used. and notice, the "ANOITHER" of his OWNSELF was to come. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
and he God came at John 1:1 when Mary gave birth to the body of flesh he CAME in.

SO WHEN GOD SAID "US" AND "OUR" he was speaking of himself now ... and to COME... (smile). and he did come... in flesh as a ... MAN. which he is called the "LAST" Adam. see, that's why JESUS is calle the "First", ordinal First, and "Last", ordinal Last or the "ANOTHER" of himself in flesh. and this being in flesh is called the "Offspring", which can be translated as "DIVERSTY" listen, OFFSPRING is the Greek word, G1085 γένος genos
which means kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

BINGO, there it is..... "diversity".

understand CharismaticLady, Jesus as Spirit, title LORD, FATHER is the ordinal First. and Jesus as the Spirit diversified, title Lord, SON is the ordinal Last. BINGO. this is why he said in Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." see that "he" there, ONLY ONE PERSON "DIVERSIFIED" and notice the with here in Isaiah, the same WITH in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
I suggest you copy this to a WP and study this over and over. John 1:1 is so diversified untill it's ashame.

conclusion. God didn't LIE who is Jesus who have never lied. so GOD was only speaking of his "diversified" self in his own image to come. because all time is one time to God. and Jesus as Son, the diversified "offspring"... :eek: is the "EXPRESS IMAGE" of himself in flesh, scripture. Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

and now another revelation. the trinity doctrine say the son is not the father and the other way around correct. well did you hear Hebrews? listen, "and the express image of his person". that means that the Son is the exact person who you calls Father. notice Hebrews did not say his OWN image as a second person, no, but the express image of the only PERSON in the Godhead. .... :eek:

you didn't see that either did you?.

so we suggest you copy and paste this post into your WP, and read and examine it over and over. and if you have any question, (legitimate ones), if I can answer them I will).

so that's strike two one more......

PICJAG.
 
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tigger 2

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@CL post #110

1 John 5:7

Noted Bible scholar, Dr. William Barclay, states the following about 1 John 5:7 as found in the KJV:

"There is, of course, nothing wrong with it [if the trinity were really true as trinitarians like Barclay himself want!]; but modern scholarship has made it quite certain that John did not write it and that it is a much later commentary on, and addition to, his words; and that is why [nearly] all modern translations omit it.” - pp. 110-111, The Letters of John and Jude, The Daily Study Bible Series, Revised Edition, The Westminster Press, 1976. [Material in brackets and emphasis added by me.]

Popular trinitarian scholar Daniel B. Wallace admits the same: https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8#_ftnref3

Notice the comments concerning this disputed passage found in the respected trinitarian reference work, The Expositor's Greek Testament:

It says in a note for 1 John 5:7 (as found in the Received Text and the KJV): 

"A Latin interpolation, certainly spurious.  (I) Found in no Gk. MS. [Greek Manuscript] except two late minuscules - 162 (Vatican), 15th c., the Lat. Vg. [Latin Vulgate] Version with a Gk. text adapted thereto; 34 (Trin. Coll., Dublin), 16th c.  (2) Quoted by none of the Gk Fathers.  Had they known it, they would have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian [325 A.D.]).  (3) Found in none of the early versions - in Vg. but not as it [originally] left the hands of St. Jerome." - p. 195, Vol. 5, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

The following modern trinitarian Bibles do not include the spurious words found in the KJV at 1 Jn 5:7: Revised Standard Version; New Revised Standard Version; American Standard Version; New International Version; New American Standard Bible; Living Bible; Good News Bible; New English Bible; Revised English Bible; New American Bible (1970 and 1991 editions); Jerusalem Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; Modern Language Bible; Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version; An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed); and translations by Moffatt; C. B. Williams; William Beck; Phillips; Rotherham; Lamsa; Byington; Barclay; etc.

WHY did trinitarian copyists and scholars think it necessary to construct this “scripture” and actually add it to the Holy Scriptures? What, then, does this tell us about the evaluation of the rest of the “evidence” for a trinity by these very same trinitarians? Isn’t this most terrible, blasphemous action by them actually an admission that the rest of the “evidence” for a 3-in-one God is completely inadequate? Why else would they do such a desperate, terrible thing?

WHAT does this tell us about those men who first constructed the “trinity doctrine” and forced it on an unwilling Roman Church in 325 A. D. at the Nicene Council? (See HIST and CREEDS studies .)

WHY do so many trinitarians feel it necessary to “preserve” this clearly dishonest King James Version tradition in not only the most-used King James Version itself (which has been revised many times with thousands of changes in its 400-year history while still leaving this spurious verse), but even in at least three modern translations (NKJV, KJIIV, NLV)?

More of my personal study: Examining the Trinity: 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
 
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CharismaticLady

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thanks for the reply. second, another ERROR on yor part, which is very bad. let the Bible answer that scripture with scripture, and expose the false doctrine of the trinity. NOW THE VERY NEXT VERSE, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Well, well, well CharismaticLady, how did GOD go from "US" and "OUR", which is a plurality of one, (which I will explain later), to "HIS" and "HE" in the VERY NEXT VERSE, verse 27. the short answer... "diversity" to COME.
now, by the wisdom of God, (the Holy Ghost), JESUS who is Lord, we will expain why God said "US" and "Our" in verse 26, and why he said "HE" and "HIM" in verse 27
but first we will kill this trinity lie quickly and get you out the door quickly.... :D ... pay attention. you know that the Lord Jesus don't LIE correct. listen to what he said about any "US" or "OUR" when God the Spirit MADE ... man, listen up. while he was talking to the Pharisees concerning divorcement, in Matthews he, the Lord Jesus said, this. Matthew 19:3 "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?"
Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," WHAT? say that again, "he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," HE... HE.. made them, not us, or our. Uh O, he is ONE PERSON just like Genesis 1:27 stated. but is this "HE" God, the one God of Deuteronomy 6:4. well our brother Mark make it crystal clear as to the "HE" is that made man at the beginning. Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." BINGO, there the "HE" is... GOD. so it was God, the same one LORD of Deuteronomy 6:4 and the same ONE LORD who was by himself and alone according to Isaiah 44:24... (smile).

so CharismaticLady, your trinity is falling apart. so lets put the final nail in the coffin.

now if the Lord Jesus said that "HE" ONE PERSON made them male and female, don't you believe JESUS?.... :rolleyes: yes I guess you do.... (smile). now let answer the question WHY did God said "US" and "OUR" in verse 26?
ANSWER, God is a Plurility of ONE, what do we mean? Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
did you notice that word "ONE" in the verse. it's the Hebrew term,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

did you notice the second definition, 2. (as an ordinal) first God, in the befinning is an ordinal "one" of himself. and the reason why he said, "US" and "OUR", is that the IMAGE OF MAN is "ANOTHER" of his ownself. for the meaning of ADAM can also mean "ANOTHER". listen,
ADAM/MAN: H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119
WELL what you know ADAM/MAN can be translated as "ANOTHER". another? yes "ANOTHER" of "one" ownself. see the woman Eve is "ANOTHER" of the Man ADAM. the Lord Jesus is the "ANOTHER" of the LORD JESUS "HIMSELF, to Come in Flesh. see how Lord and LORD is used. and notice, the "ANOITHER" of his OWNSELF was to come. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
and he God came at John 1:1 when Mary gave birth to the body of flesh he CAME in.

SO WHEN GOD SAID "US" AND "OUR" he was speaking of himself now ... and to COME... (smile). and he did come... in flesh as a ... MAN. which he is called the "LAST" Adam. see, that's why JESUS is calle the "First", ordinal First, and "Last", ordinal Last or the "ANOTHER" of himself in flesh. and this being in flesh is called the "Offspring", which can be translated as "DIVERSTY" listen, OFFSPRING is the Greek word, G1085 γένος genos
which means kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

BINGO, there it is..... "diversity".

understand CharismaticLady, Jesus as Spirit, title LORD, FATHER is the ordinal First. and Jesus as the Spirit diversified, title Lord, SON is the ordinal Last. BINGO. this is why he said in Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." see that "he" there, ONLY ONE PERSON "DIVERSIFIED" and notice the with here in Isaiah, the same WITH in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
I suggest you copy this to a WP and study this over and over. John 1:1 is so diversified untill it's ashame.

conclusion. God didn't LIE who is Jesus who have never lied. so GOD was only speaking of his "diversified" self in his own image to come. because all time is one time to God. and Jesus as Son, the diversified "offspring"... :eek: is the "EXPRESS IMAGE" of himself in flesh, scripture. Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

and now another revelation. the trinity doctrine say the son is not the father and the other way around correct. well did you hear Hebrews? listen, "and the express image of his person". that means that the Son is the exact person who you calls Father. notice Hebrews did not say his OWN image as a second person, no, but the express image of the only PERSON in the Godhead. .... :eek:

you didn't see that either did you?.

so we suggest you copy and paste this post into your WP, and read and examine it over and over. and if you have any question, (legitimate ones), if I can answer them I will).

so that's strike two one more......

PICJAG.

Our and He are both what is said of God. God is Three and God is One.
 

tigger 2

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Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

Gen. 1:26 - "Let US ...."

There are a number of interpretations of this scripture given by Bible experts.

The oft-used trinitarian explanation is only one (and probably the least likely).

One other is that the only-begotten Son of God was present at this time.

Another recognizes that the brothers of the Word, "the sons of God" (angels), were also present.

Another, less likely, interpretation is that God is simply using the 'Royal We' as was used by royalty throughout the ages ("We are not amused.").

.......................................
"God is one" is used frequently in the scriptures, but "God is three" never is.
In fact, the word 'three' is never used for God.
 

CharismaticLady

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Gen. 1:26 - "Let US ...."

There are a number of interpretations of this scripture given by Bible experts.

The oft-used trinitarian explanation is only one (and probably the least likely).

One other is that the only-begotten Son of God was present at this time.

Another recognizes that the brothers of the Word, "the sons of God" (angels), were also present.

Another, less likely, interpretation is that God is simply using the 'Royal We' as was used by royalty throughout the ages ("We are not amused.").

.......................................
"God is one" is used frequently in the scriptures, but "God is three" never is.
In fact, the word 'three' is never used for God.

We are not made in the likeness of angels.
 

101G

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Our and He are both what is said of God. God is Three and God is One.
first thanks for the reply, second, you didn't READ did you? go back and READ post #115 again.
so, you have no clue what an ordinal first means in an H259 אֶחָד 'echad, do you? nor what the ordinal Last in the series of the despentation of God in flesh is as the G2078 ἔσχατος eschatos, or the Last Adam, do you?..... Simply put God is the ANOTHER, or the equal "Share" of himself in flesh.


now that's strike two, you want to go ahead and strike out... :D let me help you out, why not use the for your next scripture for a trinity,


Luke 3:21 "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,"
Luke 3:22 "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

Matthew 3:16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

how about these scriptures..... it seem like the trinity is here, would you say......... (smile).

PICJAG.