Universal Salvation

Brakelite · Jun 17, 2020

FollowHim said:
In heaven where there is no veil, demons

Demons in heaven?

Mayflower · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
So if God knows the end from the beginning and God does everything with a purpose and can't fail, then why give them Life?

And God seems to counter any argument that He can fail to persuade:

Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Good questions. Here is a verse and a couple questions to think about...

"For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."
Psalms 51:16‭-‬17

Questions:

What is God pleased with?

Would God choose to fail persuading us, so we could have free will?

What is a "sacrifice?" And what did we do to convince God to sacrifice for us?

If God desires sacrifice and that is what pleases Him, would He choose to fail to achieve that purpose? Is it coming back to Him void in this way?

I believe God gave us life to serve Him, but wants us to serve Him freely and not as robots. His Word will never return void. He is the Word. We just have a lot to learn about God!!!!

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

LC627 said:
But if God is going to override it all in the end then it doesn't matter because all will confess Christ.

I'm not sure what your meaning by "override it"

FollowHim · Jun 17, 2020

Brakelite2 said:
Demons in heaven?

This is a good point. Are all the demons cast down to the earth or somewhere else?
In Job it says

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Job 1:6-7

So it would appear yes, not all are cast down at the moment.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Scoot said:
Thanks for responding to my questions @Pneuma, and explaining your views further.

If I have it right - I think your reply reveals to me in part why you believe the way you do. If I was to accept the logic that Adam and Eve were doomed from the start because it was God's will that they sin, and God has everything he wants, and none of us truly has choices - everything we do is as a puppet from God - then I can the rest of your logic also fits into universalism - all the way to the extent of those who preach false gospel's.

For me, I am unable to follow you with your logic further, in part because I believe that God gave us free will, and that He hates sin, and that Sin is of our doing - not of God's. I can see why you have said some of what you have said, but I also have concerns with how you address scripture. Such as the use of 'will' in my original post/reply to this thread (post #8 of this thread). Please understand - as per my previous long winded post to Helen - I grew up in a church that would ignore things that didn't fit with their ideology. I'm extremely wary of scenario's where I see scripture used similarly.

If - as you say - the gospel message as you understand it is correct and I am wrong - I guess there's no eternal harm for me to believe the way that I do as in the end we'll all be saved - (well, further more there's no choice - what I believe now is what God wants me to believe using that logic - and I have no choice - what will be, will be). As a programmer, I see it that it would mean we are little more than conscious computer running a set program we can't deviate from.

If on the other hand, the gospel message as I understand it is correct and you are wrong - I truly fear for your eternal future. Don't get me wrong - I don't wish you harm at all - but I believe Paul was clear in Galatians about false gospel messages.

Thank you for responding to me politely - it is greatly appreciated.

I do believe in free will. But Free Will is exercised under the Framework that God controls. He controls the framework and can control the free will.

You see we were made subject to vanity (Adam and Eve) included.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

You see God is in COMPLETE control. You see God makes us who we are - whether a vessel unto dishonor or praise.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

You see above, who has really resisted His will?

To understand it better, consider this - God is RESPONSIBLE for the fall of man but because we have free will, we are ACCOUNTABLE for the intents of our hearts because we do have free will.

So in God's responsibility, He will eventually save all since He was ultimately responsible for creating us and setting us on a path where we were made SUBJECT to vanity.

Once, you understand this, it opens your mind to looking at each other in a much different way. The faults of one can easily be seen to be rectified in due time so no wonder we are told to love our enemies for they will not always be enemies of us or the Lord.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

FollowHim said:
I think you have miss-understood Pauls meaning.

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11

Paul is saying Jesus will be declared that He is God and that every tongue will have to recognise this.
Here on earth we only recognise it because God has given us the Holy Spirit.

In heaven where there is no veil, demons confess Jesus is Lord, it does not mean everyone is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Those who are tormented in the lake of fire for worshipping the beast know Jesus is Lord and are eternally lost and doomed.

The scriptures show that you cannot confess that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Mayflower said:
Good questions. Here is a verse and a couple questions to think about...

"For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."
Psalms 51:16‭-‬17

Questions:

What is God pleased with?

Would God choose to fail persuading us, so we could have free will?

What is a "sacrifice?" And what did we do to convince God to sacrifice for us?

If God desires sacrifice and that is what pleases Him, would He choose to fail to achieve that purpose? Is it coming back to Him void in this way?

I believe God gave us life to serve Him, but wants us to serve Him freely and not as robots. His Word will never return void. He is the Word. We just have a lot to learn about God!!!!

God is please with the emulation of His Son Jesus Christ within us.

Your free will exists before you even have knowledge of the persuasion.

The book of Hebrews tells you why Jesus had to be a sacrifice for us. We don't convince God to be a sacrifice, God is the author and finisher of our faith. And as the author and finisher of our Faith, why would we conclude that if anyone would be lost forever that it is somehow their fault?

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

I agree, that God wants us to serve Him freely and not as robots, but God controls the framework in which you exercise your free will. He knows how you will react to every stimuli and can cause your will to accept His will. God cannot fail to persuade. But the world has not yet experienced the more measured weight of His Persuasion.

FollowHim · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
The scriptures show that you cannot confess that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Clearly Paul is not saying that everyone who reads from a book "Jesus is Lord" has the Holy Spirit.
He is implying those who declare in faith and love Jesus is Lord can only do this because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

To declare Jesus is Lord, in the way the demons did is not proof of the Holy Spirit.

"What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!"
Luke 8:28

17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved."
Acts 16:17

34 He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
Mark 1:34

Saying who Jesus is is not a sign of the Holy Spirit only, but a statement of authority and power.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

FollowHim said:
Clearly Paul is not saying that everyone who reads from a book "Jesus is Lord" has the Holy Spirit.
He is implying those who declare in faith and love Jesus is Lord can only do this because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

To declare Jesus is Lord, in the way the demons did is not proof of the Holy Spirit.

"What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!"
Luke 8:28

17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved."
Acts 16:17

34 He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
Mark 1:34

Saying who Jesus is is not a sign of the Holy Spirit only, but a statement of authority and power.

The scriptures are clear that the only way to CONFESS that Jesus is Lord is by the Holy Spirit and the scriptures are clear that everyone will confess that He is Lord - universally.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So the confession of Jesus as Lord is to the GLORY of God the Father and these scriptures clearly show those doing such are universal as EVERY KNEE - EVERYWHERE. So as you can see if one claims this includes the wicked then they would be wrong. At this point all the wicked would have ceased to exist because they would have put on the Holy Ghost by this point.

Taken · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
Ask yourself these questions:

1.) Does God desire all to be saved?
2.) Can God fail?
3.) Would God give you every opportunity to be saved?
4.) Can God fail to persuade?
5.) Does God get what He wants?
6.) Does God finish what He starts?
7.) Does God give life?
8.) Does God do everything with a purpose?

The questions are there to stimulate your thoughts on this subject.

God will have all to be saved in due time such that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

Universal Salvation
OP^

The OP is not clear on meaning or Intent.

Will the people of the Entire Universe be Offered Salvation? Yes.

Will the people of the Entire Universe Receive Salvation? No.

Glory to God,
Taken

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Taken said:
Universal Salvation
OP^

The OP is not clear on meaning or Intent.

Will the people of the Entire Universe be Offered Salvation? Yes.

Will the people of the Entire Universe Receive Salvation? No.

Glory to God,
Taken

Let me clarify what I believe - God will save all, just as He says in His Word:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

FollowHim · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
The scriptures are clear that the only way to CONFESS that Jesus is Lord is by the Holy Spirit and the scriptures are clear that everyone will confess that He is Lord - universally.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So the confession of Jesus as Lord is to the GLORY of God the Father and these scriptures clearly show those doing such are universal as EVERY KNEE - EVERYWHERE. So as you can see if one claims this includes the wicked then they would be wrong. At this point all the wicked would have ceased to exist because they would have put on the Holy Ghost by this point.

This is a universalist theology, as the wicked cease to exist because they all become believers.
What amazes me about this proposition is how? Are you claiming people can be forced to become believers who love God even when they hate Him? Where is scripture is there even one example of this?

What we have examples of is repentant believers who once were sinners. As Jesus says, "
"I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."
Rev 3:20

What you are proposing is, even if you refuse to listen or open the door, I will force you to open the door and listen, whether you like it or not, which unfortunately happens to all those who are thrown into the lake of fire, who gnash their teeth and weep.

Put simply unless we voluntarily bow the knee and repent, we will be broken, destroyed, something that is just a mess that does not work. Look at people who have a nervous breakdown and you get an idea what happens when people implode. God bless you

Taken · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
Let me clarify what I believe - God will save all, just as He says in His Word:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Thank you. That is what I presumed.
I disagree with you.

Glory to God,
Taken

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

FollowHim said:
This is a universalist theology, as the wicked cease to exist because they all become believers.
What amazes me about this proposition is how? Are you claiming people can be forced to become believers who love God even when they hate Him? Where is scripture is there even one example of this?

What we have examples of is repentant believers who once were sinners. As Jesus says, "
"I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."
Rev 3:20

What you are proposing is, even if you refuse to listen or open the door, I will force you to open the door and listen, whether you like it or not, which unfortunately happens to all those who are thrown into the lake of fire, who gnash their teeth and weep.

Put simply unless we voluntarily bow the knee and repent, we will be broken, destroyed, something that is just a mess that does not work. Look at people who have a nervous breakdown and you get an idea what happens when people implode. God bless you

I don't believe anyone can become righteous of their own selves. God has to cause anyone/everyone to be righteous. We are incapable. Everyone will eventually be persuaded and come to the knowledge of Truth. I already presented those verses in 1 Timothy 2:4.

Helen · Jun 17, 2020

FollowHim said:
This is a universalist theology, as the wicked cease to exist because they all become believers.
What amazes me about this proposition is how? Are you claiming people can be forced to become believers who love God even when they hate Him? Where is scripture is there even one example of this?

What we have examples of is repentant believers who once were sinners. As Jesus says, "
"I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."
Rev 3:20

What you are proposing is, even if you refuse to listen or open the door, I will force you to open the door and listen, whether you like it or not, which unfortunately happens to all those who are thrown into the lake of fire, who gnash their teeth and weep.

Put simply unless we voluntarily bow the knee and repent, we will be broken, destroyed, something that is just a mess that does not work. Look at people who have a nervous breakdown and you get an idea what happens when people implode. God bless you

There is no forcing of anyone...
Were you forced to believe?

When they finally SEE Him..."Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

As in Adam all die, so in Christ ( the Last Adam) shall all be made alive."

..every man in his own order....

VictoryinJesus · Jun 17, 2020

Helen said:
There is no forcing of anyone...
Were you forced to believe?

When they finally SEE Him..."Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

“There is no forcing of anyone...” might be random as I only read your post here and not all the others. Yesterday my husband was instructing our grandchildren on how to throw a clay pot on the pottery wheel. They wanted so bad to throw one on the wheel. but it takes a lot to get the clay centered before you can even begin working on pulling the clay up and shaping it into something. As my husband was demonstrating and helping them...I couldn’t help but listen when he told them the potter has control over the clay. “You keep your hand steady and allow the clay to come and mold and conform to your hands.” They would become impatient and try to force it, jabbing at it which made the clay collapse. my husband said it better...I couldn’t help but think of God’s patience with us.

Helen · Jun 17, 2020

VictoryinJesus said:
“There is no forcing of anyone...” might be random as I only read your post here and not all the others. Yesterday my husband was instructing our grandchildren on how to throw a clay pot on the pottery wheel. They wanted so bad to throw one on the wheel. but it takes a lot to get the clay centered before you can even begin working on pulling the clay up and shaping it into something. As my husband was demonstrating and helping them...I couldn’t help but listen when he told them the potter has control over the clay. “You keep your hand steady and allow the clay to come and mold and conform to your hands.” They would become impatient and try to force it, jabbing at it which made the clay collapse. my husband said it better...I couldn’t help but think of God’s patience with us.

Amen. Good illustration.
God doesn't force the unbelievers , He just makes them willing to believe ...

I like the song about the Children of Israel..
"He didn't force them to leave against their will , He just made them willing to go.."

His plan is above ours, and His ways are far above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts...
Man may think that they understand all His plans and ways ...but we are like little ants ...we know nothing compared to His infinite wisdom.

We shall see at the end of all this on who's side the truth is.. ..no sweat...

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

VictoryinJesus said:
“There is no forcing of anyone...” might be random as I only read your post here and not all the others. Yesterday my husband was instructing our grandchildren on how to throw a clay pot on the pottery wheel. They wanted so bad to throw one on the wheel. but it takes a lot to get the clay centered before you can even begin working on pulling the clay up and shaping it into something. As my husband was demonstrating and helping them...I couldn’t help but listen when he told them the potter has control over the clay. “You keep your hand steady and allow the clay to come and mold and conform to your hands.” They would become impatient and try to force it, jabbing at it which made the clay collapse. my husband said it better...I couldn’t help but think of God’s patience with us.

Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Nancy · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
What about a God that cannot fail to persuade you?

Our God can does and will continue to do what ever He wishes. Do you not think that our perfect in all His way's God is unable to use all bad to the good of those who love and are called according to His purpose? Doesn't He bring about good from all things? He knows already the choices we will make, to the smallest detail, He's pretty smart

God is not a manipulator. God knows the end from the beginning and will put Humpty Dumpty back together again using good and bad.

Stumpmaster · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
Rom_9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Since you are so convinced of Universalism, it seems to me, Pneuma, that somehow you have allowed yourself to be conned by a deceiving spirit into believing the doctrine of a demon:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

See here that Scripture tells of the blackness of darkness being reserved forever for those who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4

Jud 1:12-13 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; (13) raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Nancy said:
Our God can does and will continue to do what ever He wishes. Do you not think that our perfect in all His way's God is unable to use all bad to the good of those who love and are called according to His purpose? Doesn't He bring about good from all things? He knows already the choices we will make, to the smallest detail, He's pretty smart
God is not a manipulator. God knows the end from the beginning and will put Humpty Dumpty back together again using good and bad.

God is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our salvation. Wouldn't you agree?

Universal Salvation

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