What The Great Tribulation Really Is

Davy · Jun 15, 2020

I'm not going to bore you with all the Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye fear mongering, you can buy that junk and support those un-Biblical doomsdayers if you want. I don't.

What is the worst... state or condition one's soul can wind up in? For brethren in Christ that should be easy to answer.

It is a condition of 'spiritual death' being without Christ Jesus. THAT is what the coming time of great tribulation is ultimately about. The devil wants our soul more than he wants to simply kill our flesh. It is very, very, very, very, important to understand this simple truth, because it is what the time of great tribulation our Lord Jesus warned of us, will be about.

Did you know the time of "great tribulation" for the end is going to be a time of WORLD PEACE? In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3, Apostle Paul showed that when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. Paul was speaking of the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" with that destruction event. That is the final day of this present world. Per the Old Testament prophets it will accompany a destruction event upon this earth by God's Hand. He will destroy this present world wiping man's works off the surface of this earth by His consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10). He is also going to shake this earth and make it tremble like He did once before (Hebrews 12:25-29). But did you notice Paul said first those will be saying, "Peace and safety"? That is how the time of great tribulation just prior to the "day of the Lord" destruction is going to be.

But if Satan is so evil (and he is), then why would he use peace to destroy souls, instead of just killing everybody like the Hal Lindsey and LaHaye books and movies portray? In Revelation 11, we are shown God's two witnesses in Jerusalem prophesying against the beast, and given power to work plagues similar to the days of Moses and Aaron in Egypt. The world is torment by those two witnesses, and when the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit (i.e, the dragon) kills them, then we are shown the world will rejoice and send each other presents! They will think... what time has come? They will think that "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5. What kind of war does this really show it will be?

The Revelation, Daniel, and even Christ's Olivet discourse Scripture all reveal the tribulation time will involve a SPIRITUAL war here on earth for the end, not one of the flesh with military weapons of war. Our weapons in Christ are to be SPIRITUAL WEAPONS! That is how we defeat Satan and his hosts who are coming here on earth.

Satan coming to earth?? Where did I get that? It is written in Revelation 12:7-17. Per Revelation 13, it will be Satan as the "dragon" and the "another beast", working miracles, raining fire down upon the earth in the sight of men. That is who the position of a false Messiah in Jerusalem for the end is reserved for. This is why... the great tribulation is NOT about a literal war of the flesh, but a spiritual war for one's soul! Spiritual death of one's soul is what it will be about. But how?

At the end of Rev.13 we are shown that another beast setting up an "image of the beast" for all to bow in worship, or be killed. That is another working similar to what Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, did in the days of Daniel the prophet. Neb made a golden idol image of himself by the suggestion of his false prophets, and demanded all to bow in worship, or be killed. God preserved Daniel and his fellows, and cast Neb into the wild to live as a wild beast (see Daniel 3 & 4).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 Apostle Paul also warned us about the coming of the "man of sin" who will exalt himself as God in the temple of God (in Jerusalem) and over all that called God, or that is worshiped. So once again, the main theme for the tribulation is about FALSE WORSHIP for the spiritual desolation of one's soul!

Also in 2 Corinthians 11, Apostle Paul warned about the "another Jesus", and falling away to "another spirit". Paul said he wants to present those in Christ to Jesus, our true Husband (spiritually), "as a chaste virgin". That means spiritually... staying FAITHFUL waiting on our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming. What is the opposite of not staying a chaste virgin? It means playing the spiritual harlot, worshiping another in His place. That is EXACTLY the real Biblical meaning of the word "antichrist". It is not just about Satan's many workers who act like little antichrists. It is about false worship to Satan instead of our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Anti in the Greek can also mean 'instead of', or 'in place of'.

In the latter part of the Daniel 8:23-25 Scripture, which has a parallel to the "dragon" in Rev.13, we are shown the coming Antichrist will use peace to destroy, and craft will prosper in his hand. In other words, he is coming in peace and prosperity to fix the whole world's problems. The chaos we see happening today is in preparation for this great contrast of the time of fake peace the Antichrist is going to use... to do what? To destroy souls by spiritual deception! This is the "strong delusion" that Apostle Paul said God is sending upon those who loved not the Truth (His Word). The majority of the world won't be aware of this, and will not be aware who that Antichrist will be, nor his ultimate goal, i.e. the spiritual destruction of your soul by getting you to worship him in place of God.

Keraz · Jun 15, 2020

Davy said:
Did you know the time of "great tribulation" for the end is going to be a time of WORLD PEACE? In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3, Apostle Paul showed that when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. Paul was speaking of the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" with that destruction event. That is the final day of this present world. Per the Old Testament prophets it will accompany a destruction event upon this earth by God's Hand. He will destroy this present world wiping man's works off the surface of this earth by His consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10). He is also going to shake this earth and make it tremble like He did once before (Hebrews 12:25-29). But did you notice Paul said first those will be saying, "Peace and safety"? That is how the time of great tribulation just prior to the "day of the Lord" destruction is going to be.

Your mistake is to think the Day the Lord comes as a 'thief in the night' is His Return.
That terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, is not the Return in His glory at all. Many prophesies say He will not be seen on His Day of wrath, but at the Return; He is seen by every eye. Revelation 1:7

The Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath will strike the earth unexpectedly, killing many, Isaiah 66:15-17, changing our civilization and commencing all the things prophesied up to the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

Earburner · Jun 15, 2020

Davy said:
I'm not going to bore you with all the Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye fear mongering, you can buy that junk and support those un-Biblical doomsdayers if you want. I don't.

What is the worst... state or condition one's soul can wind up in? For brethren in Christ that should be easy to answer.

It is a condition of 'spiritual death' being without Christ Jesus. THAT is what the coming time of great tribulation is ultimately about. The devil wants our soul more than he wants to simply kill our flesh. It is very, very, very, very, important to understand this simple truth, because it is what the time of great tribulation our Lord Jesus warned of us, will be about.

Did you know the time of "great tribulation" for the end is going to be a time of WORLD PEACE? In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3, Apostle Paul showed that when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. Paul was speaking of the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" with that destruction event. That is the final day of this present world. Per the Old Testament prophets it will accompany a destruction event upon this earth by God's Hand. He will destroy this present world wiping man's works off the surface of this earth by His consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10). He is also going to shake this earth and make it tremble like He did once before (Hebrews 12:25-29). But did you notice Paul said first those will be saying, "Peace and safety"? That is how the time of great tribulation just prior to the "day of the Lord" destruction is going to be.

But if Satan is so evil (and he is), then why would he use peace to destroy souls, instead of just killing everybody like the Hal Lindsey and LaHaye books and movies portray? In Revelation 11, we are shown God's two witnesses in Jerusalem prophesying against the beast, and given power to work plagues similar to the days of Moses and Aaron in Egypt. The world is torment by those two witnesses, and when the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit (i.e, the dragon) kills them, then we are shown the world will rejoice and send each other presents! They will think... what time has come? They will think that "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5. What kind of war does this really show it will be?

The Revelation, Daniel, and even Christ's Olivet discourse Scripture all reveal the tribulation time will involve a SPIRITUAL war here on earth for the end, not one of the flesh with military weapons of war. Our weapons in Christ are to be SPIRITUAL WEAPONS! That is how we defeat Satan and his hosts who are coming here on earth.

Satan coming to earth?? Where did I get that? It is written in Revelation 12:7-17. Per Revelation 13, it will be Satan as the "dragon" and the "another beast", working miracles, raining fire down upon the earth in the sight of men. That is who the position of a false Messiah in Jerusalem for the end is reserved for. This is why... the great tribulation is NOT about a literal war of the flesh, but a spiritual war for one's soul! Spiritual death of one's soul is what it will be about. But how?

At the end of Rev.13 we are shown that another beast setting up an "image of the beast" for all to bow in worship, or be killed. That is another working similar to what Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, did in the days of Daniel the prophet. Neb made a golden idol image of himself by the suggestion of his false prophets, and demanded all to bow in worship, or be killed. God preserved Daniel and his fellows, and cast Neb into the wild to live as a wild beast (see Daniel 3 & 4).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 Apostle Paul also warned us about the coming of the "man of sin" who will exalt himself as God in the temple of God (in Jerusalem) and over all that called God, or that is worshiped. So once again, the main theme for the tribulation is about FALSE WORSHIP for the spiritual desolation of one's soul!

Also in 2 Corinthians 11, Apostle Paul warned about the "another Jesus", and falling away to "another spirit". Paul said he wants to present those in Christ to Jesus, our true Husband (spiritually), "as a chaste virgin". That means spiritually... staying FAITHFUL waiting on our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming. What is the opposite of not staying a chaste virgin? It means playing the spiritual harlot, worshiping another in His place. That is EXACTLY the real Biblical meaning of the word "antichrist". It is not just about Satan's many workers who act like little antichrists. It is about false worship to Satan instead of our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Anti in the Greek can also mean 'instead of', or 'in place of'.

In the latter part of the Daniel 8:23-25 Scripture, which has a parallel to the "dragon" in Rev.13, we are shown the coming Antichrist will use peace to destroy, and craft will prosper in his hand. In other words, he is coming in peace and prosperity to fix the whole world's problems. The chaos we see happening today is in preparation for this great contrast of the time of fake peace the Antichrist is going to use... to do what? To destroy souls by spiritual deception! This is the "strong delusion" that Apostle Paul said God is sending upon those who loved not the Truth (His Word). The majority of the world won't be aware of this, and will not be aware who that Antichrist will be, nor his ultimate goal, i.e. the spiritual destruction of your soul by getting you to worship him in place of God.

Davy,
I am able to line up with alot of your thinking, however you may not be aware that in the KJV, there is no such thing as a "one man band", that "church-ianity" loves to call "THE Antichrist".

All of that misconstrued thinking, is due to a complete misunderstanding of Daniel's 70 weeks, and an error that was purposely interjected by the translators of the 1611 KJV, from the "Textus Receptus" Greek text.

If you recall, the KJV Bible was issued smack dab in the middle of the Protestant Reformation.
It was during that time, that many of the Protestant leaders held to the belief that the Pope was "of that spirit of antichrist"-
1 John 4:3.
Now, what many don't comprehend is, that in the KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:8, there was a word choice for translation in the Textus Receptus Greek, of which controlled whether or not an upper case or a lower case letter should be used in the word following it. Those words from the KJV are: "that Wicked".
So then, given the fact that those are the words that the translators used, its easy to see that together, as shown, one is forced to understand it in the "singular", as being one person or one entity.
2B cont'd.

Earburner · Jun 15, 2020

Cont'd.
So then, what's the big deal?
Its this:
I have been seriously studying on four words in 2 Thes. 2:8-9, using both the KJV/Strong's and the Young's Concordance: specifically the words "that Wicked", and the words "even him".
.
I am not looking at any other bible versions, because they are translated from the Wescott & Hort Greek text- 1881. All of such translations purposely and specifically cause the reader to falsely learn that 2 Thes. 2:8 is in the singular, as being one man.
.
In the 1611 KJV, it is very possible that a wrong word was used, being the word "that". If so, then in 1611, it could have been done so, in order to give support to a popular false belief at that time, the Pope being "of that spirit of antichrist".
.
In the Textus Receptus Greek- 1512, ["the" wicked] is used and not ["that" wicked]. However, in the KJV of today's printing, the opposite is expressed, being ["that" Wicked].
.
Secondly, now that we may have a wrong word of "that" being used, I can see why the word "wicked" is written with an upper case "W". It's done so as to force the reader to view and understand it in the singular.
.
At that time, during the Protestant Reformation period, it was commonly held by most Protestant churches, that the Pope was "the" Antichrist.
.
However, if the word "the" was used, and the word "wicked" was with the lower case "w", then the entire context of 2 Thes. would be interpreted in perfect harmony, and in the plural.

.
The word "Wicked" is found in the Strong's
but NOT found in the Young's concordance.
I have found that when the Young's Concordance ommits a word, it's because the word was purposely inserted by the translators of the KJV.
.
Conclusion:
The correct word to be used in that
scripture is "the" and not "that", and therefore a capital "W" for
"wicked" would not have been used as being necessary.
When the capital is used, it denotes the singular. When it's not, the plural is relevant to the verse and the context.
.
So now, having said that, let's read 2 Thes. 2:8 in a portion of the context, with the proposed and acceptable changes:

[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until
he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[ 11 ] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[ 12 ] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
.
OK, we are not done yet. I have found that the words "Even him", are also suspect of being an insertion by the translators. Those words are
not found in the Textus Receptus Greek text.
Nor are they found in Young's concordance or the Strong's.

Those words are an insertion by the KJV translators also, being evident to give support to the erroneous words "that Wicked".

So, are we looking at a fabrication, or an oversight in translation?
Given the fact that the "Protestant Reformation" was in full swing, through Martin Luther, I can see how the translators might give support to such a "just cause". Departing from the RCC was no small matter.

Since it is "open season" for insertions, then let it be this: "Even them".
At least, it will blend with the plural nature of the context, as well as the context of the KJV New Testament scriptures, specifically the book of 1 John.

So now, let's read it all, with all the acceptable insertions:

[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] [Even them], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Randy Kluth · Jun 15, 2020

Davy said:
I'm not going to bore you with all the Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye fear mongering, you can buy that junk and support those un-Biblical doomsdayers if you want. I don't.

What is the worst... state or condition one's soul can wind up in? For brethren in Christ that should be easy to answer.

It is a condition of 'spiritual death' being without Christ Jesus. THAT is what the coming time of great tribulation is ultimately about. The devil wants our soul more than he wants to simply kill our flesh. It is very, very, very, very, important to understand this simple truth, because it is what the time of great tribulation our Lord Jesus warned of us, will be about.

Did you know the time of "great tribulation" for the end is going to be a time of WORLD PEACE? In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3, Apostle Paul showed that when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. Paul was speaking of the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" with that destruction event. That is the final day of this present world. Per the Old Testament prophets it will accompany a destruction event upon this earth by God's Hand. He will destroy this present world wiping man's works off the surface of this earth by His consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10). He is also going to shake this earth and make it tremble like He did once before (Hebrews 12:25-29). But did you notice Paul said first those will be saying, "Peace and safety"? That is how the time of great tribulation just prior to the "day of the Lord" destruction is going to be.

But if Satan is so evil (and he is), then why would he use peace to destroy souls, instead of just killing everybody like the Hal Lindsey and LaHaye books and movies portray? In Revelation 11, we are shown God's two witnesses in Jerusalem prophesying against the beast, and given power to work plagues similar to the days of Moses and Aaron in Egypt. The world is torment by those two witnesses, and when the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit (i.e, the dragon) kills them, then we are shown the world will rejoice and send each other presents! They will think... what time has come? They will think that "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5. What kind of war does this really show it will be?

The Revelation, Daniel, and even Christ's Olivet discourse Scripture all reveal the tribulation time will involve a SPIRITUAL war here on earth for the end, not one of the flesh with military weapons of war. Our weapons in Christ are to be SPIRITUAL WEAPONS! That is how we defeat Satan and his hosts who are coming here on earth.

Satan coming to earth?? Where did I get that? It is written in Revelation 12:7-17. Per Revelation 13, it will be Satan as the "dragon" and the "another beast", working miracles, raining fire down upon the earth in the sight of men. That is who the position of a false Messiah in Jerusalem for the end is reserved for. This is why... the great tribulation is NOT about a literal war of the flesh, but a spiritual war for one's soul! Spiritual death of one's soul is what it will be about. But how?

At the end of Rev.13 we are shown that another beast setting up an "image of the beast" for all to bow in worship, or be killed. That is another working similar to what Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, did in the days of Daniel the prophet. Neb made a golden idol image of himself by the suggestion of his false prophets, and demanded all to bow in worship, or be killed. God preserved Daniel and his fellows, and cast Neb into the wild to live as a wild beast (see Daniel 3 & 4).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 Apostle Paul also warned us about the coming of the "man of sin" who will exalt himself as God in the temple of God (in Jerusalem) and over all that called God, or that is worshiped. So once again, the main theme for the tribulation is about FALSE WORSHIP for the spiritual desolation of one's soul!

Also in 2 Corinthians 11, Apostle Paul warned about the "another Jesus", and falling away to "another spirit". Paul said he wants to present those in Christ to Jesus, our true Husband (spiritually), "as a chaste virgin". That means spiritually... staying FAITHFUL waiting on our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming. What is the opposite of not staying a chaste virgin? It means playing the spiritual harlot, worshiping another in His place. That is EXACTLY the real Biblical meaning of the word "antichrist". It is not just about Satan's many workers who act like little antichrists. It is about false worship to Satan instead of our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Anti in the Greek can also mean 'instead of', or 'in place of'.

In the latter part of the Daniel 8:23-25 Scripture, which has a parallel to the "dragon" in Rev.13, we are shown the coming Antichrist will use peace to destroy, and craft will prosper in his hand. In other words, he is coming in peace and prosperity to fix the whole world's problems. The chaos we see happening today is in preparation for this great contrast of the time of fake peace the Antichrist is going to use... to do what? To destroy souls by spiritual deception! This is the "strong delusion" that Apostle Paul said God is sending upon those who loved not the Truth (His Word). The majority of the world won't be aware of this, and will not be aware who that Antichrist will be, nor his ultimate goal, i.e. the spiritual destruction of your soul by getting you to worship him in place of God.

I sympathize with a number of your points--I just don't think you're using the word "tribulation" correctly. No matter, I do think the world is in a "troubled" state--a state the Christians need to recognize is a test to their faith. While it seems as though God has abandoned the world to its own wickedness, we are left here to try to drag some out of the fire, to be saved for eternity. It's worth staying here for our future brothers and sisters, and to encourage those who, like us, are fighting along side of us to keep the faith and to present a witness.

Stumpmaster · Jun 16, 2020

Earburner said:
So now, let's read it all, with all the acceptable insertions:

[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] [Even them], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Hi Earburner, I am interested to learn how you reconcile your insertion assertions with these verses:

2Th 2:3-4 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, (4) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Enoch111 · Jun 16, 2020

Keraz said:
Your mistake is to think the Day the Lord comes as a 'thief in the night' is His Return.

And many other mistaken ideas. But if people choose to manufacture their own eschatology, there's not much that can be done.

Davy · Jun 16, 2020

Keraz said:
Your mistake is to think the Day the Lord comes as a 'thief in the night' is His Return.
That terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, is not the Return in His glory at all. Many prophesies say He will not be seen on His Day of wrath, but at the Return; He is seen by every eye. Revelation 1:7

The Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath will strike the earth unexpectedly, killing many, Isaiah 66:15-17, changing our civilization and commencing all the things prophesied up to the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

Not a mistake, the 'as a thief' idea comes from our Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse. And Apostle Paul and Peter applied it to the last day of this world involving the "day of the Lord", because the 'destruction' event both linked it with will end the beast's reign. Even Zechariah 14 is emphatic that Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord". So you'd have to simply disregard many, many Scriptures that reveal our Lord Jesus' coming is on the final day of this present world.

Davy · Jun 16, 2020

Earburner said:
Davy,
I am able to line up with alot of your thinking, however you may not be aware that in the KJV, there is no such thing as a "one man band", that "church-ianity" loves to call "THE Antichrist".

That idea that there is no singular Antichrist figure coming at the end is a doctrine of men. I've heard it many times, even those who try to turn the single entity of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 that Apostle Paul warned of into a 'many' doctrine.

In 1 John 2:18, John mentioned how they had already heard that "antichrist" shall come. That is about a singular Antichrist they already knew about and were expecting. The "many antichrists" already at work was new info John gave them. So where did they already hear about the Antichrist shall come, for they already knew about him? They heard it from Jesus in the Gospel of John. Those who don't understand there will be a literal, singular Antichrist figure at the end show they don't know where Jesus warned of that in the Gospel of John. Go look for it, and just thinking you have to see the word 'antichrist' for this to be true just doesn't get it done.

All of that misconstrued thinking, is due to a complete misunderstanding of Daniel's 70 weeks, and an error that was purposely interjected by the translators of the 1611 KJV, from the "Textus Receptus" Greek text.

So the Alexandrian Greek text for the New Testament is more accurate in your view??? The NIV which is from the Alexandrian manuscripts even has an article "the" in front of the word "antichrist" to show that it is singular tense, so your KJV argument on that just fell flat.

1 John 2:18-19
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
NIV

If you recall, the KJV Bible was issued smack dab in the middle of the Protestant Reformation.
It was during that time, that many of the Protestant leaders held to the belief that the Pope was "of that spirit of antichrist"-
1 John 4:3.
Now, what many don't comprehend is, that in the KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:8, there was a word choice for translation in the Textus Receptus Greek, of which controlled whether or not an upper case or a lower case letter should be used in the word following it. Those words from the KJV are: "that Wicked".
So then, given the fact that those are the words that the translators used, its easy to see that together, as shown, one is forced to understand it in the "singular", as being one person or one entity.
2B cont'd.

I'm not going to argue with your ignorant political activist reasoning against the 1611 KJV Bible. It has been shown that it was not a singular work of one man, nor a political work of one man, because king James had to force opposing Christian factions to join together in scholarship to produce it. Your biased view against it shows you really don't know the real history of how the KJV Bible came about.

As for what the Church fathers believed, from the 1st century even to now, the Christian Church has been looking for a singular Antichrist figure to come. Many of the Protestant Church did think the pope was The Antichrist because of his making war against them, even as some Protestants are still wrongly stuck on that idea today. Men's false doctrine that there is no singular Antichrist show Biblical illiteracy, and if one who believes that claims to be well studied in God's Word, they are telling a lie. It's as simple as that, because there are SO MANY Bible references to a false one that is to come at the very end of this world, and many titles are used for that same false one. So it's not just about the word "antichrist".

Davy · Jun 16, 2020

Earburner said:
Cont'd.
So then, what's the big deal?
Its this:
I have been seriously studying on four words in 2 Thes. 2:8-9, using both the KJV/Strong's and the Young's Concordance: specifically the words "that Wicked", and the words "even him".

You have to pull up and look at the forest, and don't get stuck on viewing just the trees. Tools like a concordance are helps, not Scripture. The definite article is included in the "that Wicked" phrase. That's in the Greek text the NIV translators used also. So your argument has led you nowhere. The false one Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2 is singular, just as Jesus warned of a singular false Messiah in the Matthew 24:23-26 context, and John referred to a singular false one in the Revelation 13:11 context.

I am not looking at any other bible versions, because they are translated from the Wescott & Hort Greek text- 1881. All of such translations purposely and specifically cause the reader to falsely learn that 2 Thes. 2:8 is in the singular, as being one man.

Then you have nothing to back up your theory, because you have to make a choice between the Greek texts used for the New Testament.

In the 1611 KJV, it is very possible that a wrong word was used, being the word "that". If so, then in 1611, it could have been done so, in order to give support to a popular false belief at that time, the Pope being "of that spirit of antichrist".

It is more likely that the KJV translators were following the actual text about a specific false one that even the Church fathers of the ROMAN CHURCH were expecting. You should read what Hippolytus of Rome (2nd century A.D.) wrote about the coming expected Antichrist. It just totally debunks the theory of men you've latched onto.

Davy · Jun 16, 2020

Randy Kluth said:
I sympathize with a number of your points--I just don't think you're using the word "tribulation" correctly. No matter, I do think the world is in a "troubled" state--a state the Christians need to recognize is a test to their faith. While it seems as though God has abandoned the world to its own wickedness, we are left here to try to drag some out of the fire, to be saved for eternity. It's worth staying here for our future brothers and sisters, and to encourage those who, like us, are fighting along side of us to keep the faith and to present a witness.

In Matthew 24, our Lord Jesus showed the time of "great tribulation" begins with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol from the Book of Daniel. That is the timeframe when He warned about the time of tribulation. The time prior to the AOD He called the "beginning of sorrows".

What our Lord Jesus showed there aligns with what is revealed in the Book of Daniel involving the final "one week" divided into two halves per Daniel 9:27. In the middle of the week the false one will end sacrifices and place the abomination idol that causes desolation, which is further covered in the Daniel 11 chapter about the "vile person", and in Daniel 8 about the "little horn". The symbolic "one week" represents a period of one seven, which the KJV translators used the idea of a 'week'. So it means a seven year period. Half of that is 1260 days. That seven years period is made up of 2 halves. It's the LATTER 1260 day period that represents the actual time of "great tribulation". That because in the middle of the 7 years is when the Antichrist will setup the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem, and demand all to bow in worship to it.

The Pre-tribulational doctors simply use the events of war, pestilence, and famine that's to occur during the time of sorrows prior... to the latter 1260 day period, a time which we are now approaching. They mistakenly call the whole 7 year period as the great tribulation. They are not really interested in the latter 1260 day period's events because their doctrine is to teach that the Church is raptured before that. So of course they don't actually have a clue about that latter period of "Peace and safety" that Apostle Paul taught.

I believe, because of what's written in God's Word, that many brethren are going to be deceived by the coming Antichrist who will play our Lord Jesus Christ. That the coming Antichrist will try to play our Lord Jesus is not a new idea. Early Church fathers understood it from God's Word also (see 2nd century Church father Hippolytus of Rome on the Antichrist). This understanding is not some outdated thing either. If one stays in God's Word as written instead of veering off into un-Biblical theories of men, they will come to this understanding just as those early Church fathers did.

Davy · Jun 16, 2020

Enoch111 said:
And many other mistaken ideas. But if people choose to manufacture their own eschatology, there's not much that can be done.

And you should talk, since you heed a 'manufactured eschatology' from John Darby, et al in 1830s Great Britain. Prior to that time, the Christian Church had always preached that Jesus comes to gather His Church after... the tribulation (because that's what is actually written). Imagine that, for 1800 years the Christian Church heeded a Post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church.

So you and those who believe Darby's doctrine like you do, actually represent a religious cult faction branched off from the Church.

Randy Kluth · Jun 16, 2020

Davy said:
In Matthew 24, our Lord Jesus showed the time of "great tribulation" begins with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol from the Book of Daniel. That is the timeframe when He warned about the time of tribulation. The time prior to the AOD He called the "beginning of sorrows".

What our Lord Jesus showed there aligns with what is revealed in the Book of Daniel involving the final "one week" divided into two halves per Daniel 9:27. In the middle of the week the false one will end sacrifices and place the abomination idol that causes desolation, which is further covered in the Daniel 11 chapter about the "vile person", and in Daniel 8 about the "little horn". The symbolic "one week" represents a period of one seven, which the KJV translators used the idea of a 'week'. So it means a seven year period. Half of that is 1260 days. That seven years period is made up of 2 halves. It's the LATTER 1260 day period that represents the actual time of "great tribulation". That because in the middle of the 7 years is when the Antichrist will setup the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem, and demand all to bow in worship to it.

The Pre-tribulational doctors simply use the events of war, pestilence, and famine that's to occur during the time of sorrows prior... to the latter 1260 day period, a time which we are now approaching. They mistakenly call the whole 7 year period as the great tribulation. They are not really interested in the latter 1260 day period's events because their doctrine is to teach that the Church is raptured before that. So of course they don't actually have a clue about that latter period of "Peace and safety" that Apostle Paul taught.

I believe, because of what's written in God's Word, that many brethren are going to be deceived by the coming Antichrist who will play our Lord Jesus Christ. That the coming Antichrist will try to play our Lord Jesus is not a new idea. Early Church fathers understood it from God's Word also (see 2nd century Church father Hippolytus of Rome on the Antichrist). This understanding is not some outdated thing either. If one stays in God's Word as written instead of veering off into un-Biblical theories of men, they will come to this understanding just as those early Church fathers did.

Here is an interesting page, that I've used before. It sort of gives you a bird's eye view of how the Church Fathers viewed the AoD. Two exceptions listed are Irenaeus and Hippolytus. The Early Church Fathers and the Last Days of the Jewish Age

Davy · Jun 16, 2020

Randy Kluth said:
Here is an interesting page, that I've used before. It sort of gives you a bird's eye view of how the Church Fathers viewed the AoD. Two exceptions listed are Irenaeus and Hippolytus. The Early Church Fathers and the Last Days of the Jewish Age

I already showed how many of the early Church fathers saw the signs in Matt.24 linked with the subject of the coming Antichrist that Apostle Paul covered in 2 Thess.2. It's mainly the 2 Thess.2 signs that most all of them agreed was still future to their day.

Keraz · Jun 16, 2020

Davy said:
Not a mistake, the 'as a thief' idea comes from our Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse. And Apostle Paul and Peter applied it to the last day of this world involving the "day of the Lord", because the 'destruction' event both linked it with will end the beast's reign. Even Zechariah 14 is emphatic that Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord". So you'd have to simply disregard many, many Scriptures that reveal our Lord Jesus' coming is on the final day of this present world.

It is somewhat ridiculous to believe that Jesus destroys the world he has just come to reign over for 1000 years.
The New earth does not come until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

The Day of the Lords wrath, by a mighty worldwide disaster, is the Sixth Seal, which is at least 10 years before His Return.
The Day that Jesus Returns is called the Great Day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14

Davy · Jun 17, 2020

Keraz said:
It is somewhat ridiculous to believe that Jesus destroys the world he has just come to reign over for 1000 years.
The New earth does not come until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

You don't understand it because you're thinking with your flesh. God's consuming fire on the last day of this world will not destroy the whole planet. It is merely going to wipe clean man's works from the surface of this earth (see also end of Hebrews 12). We are given a quite graphic hint of it in Zechariah 14. Just as with God's destruction of the earth's surface with a flood, this next time will be by fire like He said, and that is the idea Peter is covering in the 2 Peter 3 chapter. It will be the main event that ushers all into Christ's thousand years reign, on earth. Of course when that happens this present flesh world will be over. The world to come, even Christ's Millennium, will not be a fleshy existence, and that is obviously where you struggle, because you don't appear to understand the difference between this earthly dimension and the heavenly dimension, of which the heavenly one is the more real. All who struggle with this will find this out on that last day of this world. Now Apostle Paul gave you a whole lot of info on that type body of that world to come when Jesus returns, and it's up to each believer on Christ to study it until they properly understand it.

The Day of the Lords wrath, by a mighty worldwide disaster, is the Sixth Seal, which is at least 10 years before His Return.
The Day that Jesus Returns is called the Great Day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14

The 6th Seal when those see The Father and The Son in Heaven with His wrath getting ready to be poured out, is also a 7th trumpet, and 7th vial event. That final vial of God's cup of wrath is what will destroy this present world time, including man's fleshy existence on earth. The ONLY time the wicked will see Jesus in the future is at His 2nd coming in the clouds, as written.

So you are confused about the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night" WITH Christ's 2nd coming. The tribulation happens first, then the "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord" like Paul said in 1 Thess.5. In Revelation 16:15, Jesus warned His that He comes "as a thief", so how is it you just left that out.

Keraz · Jun 17, 2020

Davy said:
The 6th Seal when those see The Father and The Son in Heaven with His wrath getting ready to be poured out, is also a 7th trumpet, and 7th vial event.

The different descriptions of the 6th Seal and the Sixth Trumpet and Bowl, refute your wrong idea.

Revelation 6:12-17;
I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19 Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes by tectonic plate movement. Haggai 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalms 18:7

The sun turned black as a funeral pall – Acts 2:20 The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

The moon became a red as blood – Joel 2:31 The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermoluminescent reaction with the metallic oxides of the moon dust. As well as: the bright red reflection of the initial flash. Isaiah 30:26a

The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth, this is a known effect of the pressure wave of a CME. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this multi billion ton pressure wave of superheated hydrogen plasma. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, Isaiah 51:6

Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13 Also may cause a magnetic pole reversal.

Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves – every person on earth will be terrified by what is coming and they scramble for cover. Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:25-26

They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb – People will dive for cover and most will survive, as they see this disaster approaching. The main mass of a CME will take 24 - 36 hours to arrive on earth. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand? Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15.

This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, Isaiah 26:20-21, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, Acts 2:21, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalms 68:1-3, Joel 2:32 & 3:16 and will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His faithful Christian people.

Revelation 16:15 is an admonition for us to be at all times spiritually ready for all that must happen.
Obviously the glorious Return is not a 'coming as a thief' event!

Bobby Jo · Jun 17, 2020

Davy said:
... the Book of Daniel involving the final "one week" divided into two halves per Daniel 9:27. ... is further covered in the Daniel 11 chapter about the "vile person", and in Daniel 8 about the "little horn". The symbolic "one week" represents a period of one seven, ... in the middle of the 7 years is when the Antichrist ...

Perhaps you should read some of the analysis of the LITERAL TEXT from other Posters. They've assessed what others had no clue was an issue, -- and YOU have no clue as to the LITERAL TEXT of Daniel 9.

The only remaining consideration is whether any given doctrine is correct absent the analysis of the LITERAL TEXT. And I would propose that it isn't.

So now, do you discard what you don't know and continue to purse a FALSE PREMISE? -- It would seem so.
Bobby Jo

Davy · Jun 18, 2020

Keraz said:
The different descriptions of the 6th Seal and the Sixth Trumpet and Bowl, refute your wrong idea.
....

You are missing that the 6th Seal has 2 parts. Your just noting that "great earthquake" phrase has you jumping immediately to the day of the Lord with God's cup of wrath.

The 6th Trumpet shows the tribulation period, as does the 6th Vial also. So where's the tribulation period in the Seals, for the last 3 Signs definitely parallel each other? It is with this first part of the 6th Seal, the Rev.6:12-13 verses.

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

It's that part in red that your fleshy mind isn't understanding. Per Rev.12:3-4 we were told about the red dragon drawing a third of the stars (angels) to earth, which was about Satan's rebellion of old. That is what this in red above is a reference to, not literal meteors falling to earth like in some Hollywood movie.

The idea of "untimely figs" is about the winter fig that grows in the winter and drops off in the spring. The Message here is about a FALSE COMING OF CHRIST by the Antichrist, which the stars falling to earth is the future event Revelation 12:7-9, which will begin the time of the very end.

Then the next Rev.6 verses are indeed... about the "day of the Lord" and the day Christ's coming in the clouds is revealed to the wicked, because that is the only day in the future when they will actually see Jesus.

Rev.6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?'
KJV

At that point the wicked will actually see... The Father in Heaven sitting upon His throne. That only happens on the last day of this world with Christ's 2nd coming.

Davy · Jun 18, 2020

Bobby Jo said:
Perhaps you should read some of the analysis of the LITERAL TEXT from other Posters. They've assessed what others had no clue was an issue, -- and YOU have no clue as to the LITERAL TEXT of Daniel 9.

The only remaining consideration is whether any given doctrine is correct absent the analysis of the LITERAL TEXT. And I would propose that it isn't.

So now, do you discard what you don't know and continue to purse a FALSE PREMISE? -- It would seem so.
Bobby Jo

That's just baloney.

The Daniel 9 Scripture isn't that difficult to understand. Those who try to make it difficult, like you and your textual critic friends, only show vain attempts to try and change what it reveals. And it reveals exactly what I said, of which there have been many Bible scholars that showed the same.

What The Great Tribulation Really Is

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