Universal Salvation

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
Since you are so convinced of Universalism, it seems to me, Pneuma, that somehow you have allowed yourself to be conned by a deceiving spirit into believing the doctrine of a demon:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

See here that Scripture tells of the blackness of darkness being reserved forever for those who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4

Jud 1:12-13 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; (13) raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Yes, I'm 100% convinced in Universal Salvation.

Nancy · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
God is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our salvation. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, of course I agree with that although, it is "author and finisher of our "faith"!
I don't see the connection to what I wrote.
Scripture tells us that we are also to "work out our own salvation.." as well. IOW, work out what has been worked in us.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Nancy said:
Yes, of course I agree with that although, it is "author and finisher of our "faith"!
I don't see the connection to what I wrote.
Scripture tells us that we are also to "work out our own salvation.." as well. IOW, work out what has been worked in us.

Yes, but wouldn't you agree that the Work is His also? In other words, wouldn't you agree that the total salvation from beginning to end is God's Work? If so, then what part do you really have that you own? - none. Agree?

Stumpmaster · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
Yes, I'm 100% convinced in Universal Salvation.

So you are not a Bible-believer.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
So you are not a Bible-believer.

Which Bible? There are many...

Nancy · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
Yes, but wouldn't you agree that the Work is His also? In other words, wouldn't you agree that the total salvation from beginning to end is God's Work? If so, then what part do you really have that you own? - none. Agree?

Yes I would agree. It is God AND us together. "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building" 1 Corinthians 3:9

Stumpmaster · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
Which Bible? There are many...

The Bible that contains the Word of God as written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
2Ti 3:13-17 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. (14) But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, (15) and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

DNB · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
Forgive me as I'm not even really sure what a loaded question is but I know in sincerity here that my motives are not to get over on anyone. I'm simply presenting my understanding to take into context to this discussion. Now you claim that God was not trying to harden pharoh and I pointed out the verses in Romans. Now let me point out those in Exodus:

Exo_4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Now would you agree after reading that verse that God was trying to harden Pharohs heart?

On face value, yes, but I think that since man has free will, such an expression must be considered in the light of wisdom. So that, again, I believe that God put Pharoah in a position that would reveal his hard heart. For this is why many men have sacrificed their lives to evangelize the world, so that others may come to the knowledge of the Gospel, and accept Christ. Countless have died in this effort. Thus, did God God cause Peter to deny Christ three times, or Thomas to initially doubt Christ's resurrection? We assume that all men take responsibility for their own actions, as David with Bathsheba and Saul with the witch of Endor.

Either way, Pneuma, what are you trying to conclude from this? My point was that when you ask such simple questions, to such complex issues, you will not establish maxims about God in order to make a conclusion. Meaning, there are five viably different ways to answer your questions. You are approaching this topic rather insufficiently. You cannot say, for example, that simply because God is good, then He can't do something that we perceive as bad, like execute genocide against the Canaanites. Thus, those that deny, defy and blaspheme God, we trust will be dealt with according to justice, as God has revealed countless times in the Bible. Consider Ananias & Saphira.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Nancy said:
Yes I would agree. It is God AND us together. "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building" 1 Corinthians 3:9

Nancy, do you believe that the old testament was a type for the New Testament? In other words consider the Temple, it had a Holy Place and a Most Holy Place. the only way you could to the Most Holy Place was to go through the Holy Place. This is similar in type in the New Testament as to how the only way to the Father is through the Son. If you believe this way, then where do you see the Levites being a type of under the New Testament?

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
The Bible that contains the Word of God as written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
2Ti 3:13-17 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. (14) But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, (15) and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

But you would agree there is many Bibles, wouldn't you? I mean there is the Codex Vaniticus, Codex, Sinaticus, KJV, YLT, Jerusalem Bible, etc..

Would you believe in the Book of Isaiah as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls over the modern Book of Isaiah as found in the Masorite texts?

You see each has little differences. So do I believe these books have the Word of God trying to be communicated through them - ABSOLUTELY. But your question is far more difficult, I hope you understand.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

DNB said:
On face value, yes, but I think that since man has free will, such an expression must be considered in the light of wisdom. So that, again, I believe that God put Pharoah in a position that would reveal his hard heart. For this is why many men have sacrificed their lives to evangelize the world, so that others may come to the knowledge of the Gospel, and accept Christ. Countless have died in this effort. Thus, did God God cause Peter to deny Christ three times, or Thomas to initially doubt Christ's resurrection? We assume that all men take responsibility for their own actions, as David with Bathsheba and Saul with the witch of Endor.

Either way, Pneuma, what are you trying to conclude from this? My point was that when you ask such simple questions, to such complex issues, you will not establish maxims about God in order to make a conclusion. Meaning, there are five viably different ways to answer your questions. You are approaching this topic rather insufficiently. You cannot say, for example, that simply because God is good, then He can't do something that we perceive as bad, like execute genocide against the Canaanites. Thus, those that deny, defy and blaspheme God, we trust will be dealt with according to justice, as God has revealed countless times in the Bible. Consider Ananias & Saphira.

The issue of Universalism is the Ultimate Fate of the Unbeliever. The answer is they will eventually believe and either be punished TILL they pay their sins or they receive Mercy from God.

Pneuma · Jun 17, 2020

Did you know there is Judgement taking place right now?

1Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Stumpmaster · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
The issue of Universalism is the Ultimate Fate of the Unbeliever. The answer is they will eventually believe and either be punished TILL they pay their sins or they receive Mercy from God.

No-one can pay for their sins. That's why Christ came to be the Lamb of God slain to take away the sins of the world.
1Pe 1:18-25 Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (21) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. (22) Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: (23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever. (24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away: (25) But the word of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Mayflower · Jun 17, 2020

Pneuma said:
God is please with the emulation of His Son Jesus Christ within us.

Your free will exists before you even have knowledge of the persuasion.

The book of Hebrews tells you why Jesus had to be a sacrifice for us. We don't convince God to be a sacrifice, God is the author and finisher of our faith. And as the author and finisher of our Faith, why would we conclude that if anyone would be lost forever that it is somehow their fault?

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

I agree, that God wants us to serve Him freely and not as robots, but God controls the framework in which you exercise your free will. He knows how you will react to every stimuli and can cause your will to accept His will. God cannot fail to persuade. But the world has not yet experienced the more measured weight of His Persuasion.

So you believe more in a limited will right?

See I believe that God can fail, because He can do anything. He is all powerful and all knowing. He could make a rock big enough to kill Himself, but He would never do that. But I believe He chooses to fail, in a sense, by allowing people to choose flesh or Spirit. Life or death. And the fact of the matter is some people are so head strong in sin, they will choose the broad way of destruction. If everyone is saved, what do these verses mean, for example?

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:13‭-‬14‭, ‬21 NASB

I believe God chooses to "fail in persuading" because if so, Adam and Eve would have never chosen to eat from that fruit in the Garden of Eden in the beginning. He wants us to choose Him. He knew they wouldn't and didn't stop them. And it grieves Him that there are those who do not. Because God really does love us and desire us all to come to Him.

Mayflower · Jun 17, 2020

And I also might add that yes, we could not convince Christ to be a sacrifice for us. He chose to die for us. He chose to be beaten and crucified...killed for us.

So if God in bodily form would choose to do this for us, would He also choose to allow people to choose Hell over Him? Why or why not?

Brakelite · Jun 17, 2020

FollowHim said:
This is a good point. Are all the demons cast down to the earth or somewhere else?
In Job it says

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Job 1:6-7

So it would appear yes, not all are cast down at the moment.

Satan at that time was permitted entry, but it wasn't his home. He was there as the rightful legal prince of this planet, given him by Adam. At the cross, that legal right was taken from him. Thus all heaven could then declare
KJV Revelation 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

It was at that point he started persecuting the woman... The church.

FollowHim · Jun 18, 2020

Brakelite2 said:
Satan at that time was permitted entry, but it wasn't his home. He was there as the rightful legal prince of this planet, given him by Adam. At the cross, that legal right was taken from him. Thus all heaven could then declare
KJV Revelation 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

It was at that point he started persecuting the woman... The church.

Paul talks about principalities and powers on heavenly places which we fight against, not earthly places.

Some little god's followers have the idea that there is spiritual authority on earth these powers have. Unfortunately this sounds like demon inspired power ideas which exalt them as if they are significant.

So many see demons torturing people, again exalting their role and importance. I think propoganda dept. for satan is never quiet, lol

Pneuma · Jun 18, 2020

Mayflower said:
So you believe more in a limited will right?

See I believe that God can fail, because He can do anything. He is all powerful and all knowing. He could make a rock big enough to kill Himself, but He would never do that. But I believe He chooses to fail, in a sense, by allowing people to choose flesh or Spirit. Life or death. And the fact of the matter is some people are so head strong in sin, they will choose the broad way of destruction. If everyone is saved, what do these verses mean, for example?

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:13‭-‬14‭, ‬21 NASB

I believe God chooses to "fail in persuading" because if so, Adam and Eve would have never chosen to eat from that fruit in the Garden of Eden in the beginning. He wants us to choose Him. He knew they wouldn't and didn't stop them. And it grieves Him that there are those who do not. Because God really does love us and desire us all to come to Him.

No I believe in Free Will. I believe in it almost exactly as in St. Augustine's "On Grace and Free Will" writing.

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

Here are some chapters:

Chapter 41 [XX.]— The Wills of Men are So Much in the Power of God, that He Can Turn Them Whithersoever It Pleases Him.
Chapter 42 [XXI]— God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.
Chapter 43.— God Operates on Men's Hearts to Incline Their Wills Whithersoever He Pleases.

Also, here is a better version of that verse in Matthew:

Mat 7:13 'Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide is the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;

Pneuma · Jun 18, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
No-one can pay for their sins. That's why Christ came to be the Lamb of God slain to take away the sins of the world.
1Pe 1:18-25 Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (21) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. (22) Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: (23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever. (24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away: (25) But the word of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

If no one can pay for their sins then what good was the Parable of the Unforgiving servant?

Mat 18:34 'And having been wroth, his lord delivered him to the inquisitors, till he might pay all that was owing to him;
Mat 18:35 so also my heavenly Father will do to you, if ye may not forgive each one his brother from your hearts their trespasses.'

FollowHim · Jun 18, 2020

Pneuma said:
No I believe in Free Will. I believe in it almost exactly as in St. Augustine's "On Grace and Free Will" writing.

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

Here are some chapters:

Chapter 41 [XX.]— The Wills of Men are So Much in the Power of God, that He Can Turn Them Whithersoever It Pleases Him.
Chapter 42 [XXI]— God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.
Chapter 43.— God Operates on Men's Hearts to Incline Their Wills Whithersoever He Pleases.

Also, here is a better version of that verse in Matthew:

Mat 7:13 'Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide is the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;

You are a total optimist. How is it Israel turned from God when they had seen what happens to those who rebel against God?
How powerful is God, with plagues and issues of judgement that they had seen, yet Moses and Aaron stood between them and God, but still they rebelled?

Adam was given a choice. Death with knowledge or trust God. He chose death.
How many know of Jesus and His ways, yet choose not to even investigate what Jesus has to say?

Imagine a club for contemplation of Gods truths in heaven with sinners. Oh give it a rest would be the response.
In families with believers or house groups, try and discuss the deep things of Christ that might challenge us. The answer is stop it.

Other than the elect who love God, the class would be empty. Take the number of believers who have already thrown me into hell, called me worse than a murderer. Imagine if they had the power to do this for real? I would be dead. So how can God give free authority and power to such as these or force people to accept who He is, while never being one with Him. Immediately He would leave, they would do whatever they wanted.

Universal Salvation

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