Saved Or Predestined ???

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Renniks

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So, you just here repeat your claim that Jesus made atonement for everyone and not answer my question. And what you say in your second statement just shows that you are mistaking atonement with justification and redemption.

Now let me repost for you to address:

The question and issue is "how were these dead people who are in the grave, given the same opportunity for redemption as everyone else when Jesus Christ made atonement?"

If you can't tell me how, just say so.

Tong
R0490
How about asking a question that makes sense? They were given the chance during thier lives. What do you not understand about this?
God isn't locked in time. His sacrifice isn't limited to future generations, as I already have shown through scripture. If Abraham and Abel and many others were saved by grace, why are you excluding anyone before the incarnation from receiving atonement?
 

Tong2020

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How about asking a question that makes sense? They were given the chance during thier lives. What do you not understand about this?
God isn't locked in time. His sacrifice isn't limited to future generations, as I already have shown through scripture. If Abraham and Abel and many others were saved by grace, why are you excluding anyone before the incarnation from receiving atonement?
Yes, just as I thought. Dismissing my question as a question that makes no sense. I knew you could not give a sound answer to that. And it sure does not make any sense to you and those who believe that Jesus made atonement for Adam, Eve, Cain, those whom God condemned and destroyed until the generation of Noah, those whom God condemned and destroyed in the flood in Noah's time, the Egyptian firstborns whom God killed in the Exodus, Pharaoh and his men whom God destroyed, the idolatrous children of Israel whom God killed in wilderness, those whom God killed in the taking of the land of Canaan, the false prophets, Judas, and all the pagans and sinners who had lived and died before the cross, whom God had given up to uncleanness, to vile passions, and to a debased mind. And the reason given why you believe such, is not that, scriptures says so, but that you simply believe that Jesus' atonement was, is, and will be, an offer to all men, dead or alive, which they either accept or not, which of course likewise makes no sense. Dead unsaved people at the time of the atonement just could not respond to such an offer. Besides, Jesus did not offer Himself to each and every human being, more so to dead people, for them to accept and make Him their sacrifice of atonement to be reconciled to God. Dead unsaved people at the time of Jesus' atonement, were awaiting judgment and atonement is of no matter. For it is appointed for men to die once, and after that, the judgment.

You asked your sensible question(?) "If Abraham and Abel and many others were saved by grace, why are you excluding anyone before the incarnation from receiving atonement?". While people like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob were said to be saved, their salvation is not without the finished work of Jesus Christ, even without them knowing it. And those who were condemned, were condemned not that they rejected Jesus or Jesus' sacrifice of atonement, but because of their rejection and rebellion against God, their unbelief and lack of faith, their idolatry, their sin. Jesus Christ indeed made atonement for the sins of the saved dead like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, but obviously not for the sins of the unsaved dead like Cain, who rejected and rebelled against God.

Tong
R0491
 

Renniks

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While people like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob were said to be saved, their salvation is not without the finished work of Jesus Christ, even without them knowing it. And those who were condemned, were condemned not that they rejected Jesus or Jesus' sacrifice of atonement, but because of their rejection and rebellion against God, their unbelief and lack of faith, their idolatry, their sin. Jesus Christ indeed made atonement for the sins of the saved dead like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, but obviously not for the sins of the unsaved dead like Cain, who rejected and rebelled against God.
So you say, based on nothing, for no reason that is found in scripture. Again, if the others were not atoned for, they rebelled against God because there was no other option. Which would mean God created them for damnation and caused thier rebellion by leaving no other choice.
But scripture says Christ died for all, not for a few.
 

Tong2020

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So you say, based on nothing, for no reason that is found in scripture. Again, if the others were not atoned for, they rebelled against God because there was no other option. Which would mean God created them for damnation and caused thier rebellion by leaving no other choice.
But scripture says Christ died for all, not for a few.
What I said was based on scriptural truth that Jesus was sent to save His people, those whom the Father had given Him, not each and every man that was, is, and will be.

Again, atonement was not something that Jesus offered to mankind to accept or reject. Jesus did not offer Himself to each and every human being, more so to dead people, for them to accept and make Him their sacrifice of atonement to be reconciled to God. What awaits the dead unsaved people at the time of Jesus' atonement, is judgment and not atonement.

Tong
R0494
 

Renniks

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What I said was based on scriptural truth that Jesus was sent to save His people, those whom the Father had given Him, not each and every man that was, is, and will be.

Again, atonement was not something that Jesus offered to mankind to accept or reject. Jesus did not offer Himself to each and every human being, more so to dead people, for them to accept and make Him their sacrifice of atonement to be reconciled to God. What awaits the dead unsaved people at the time of Jesus' atonement, is judgment and not atonement.

Tong
R0494
Lol, now you are arguing against what? Universalism? Where did I say unsaved people will not be judged? The weight of scripture is on the side of universal Atonement, but not universal salvation. If you want to believe a falsehood, that's up to you. I'll go with the hundreds of verses that support atonement for all.
 

Tong2020

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Lol, now you are arguing against what? Universalism? Where did I say unsaved people will not be judged? The weight of scripture is on the side of universal Atonement, but not universal salvation. If you want to believe a falsehood, that's up to you. I'll go with the hundreds of verses that support atonement for all.
Nope. I was just stating that what I said was based on scriptural truth that Jesus was sent to save His people, those whom the Father had given Him, not each and every man that was, is, and will be, and not as you say was based on nothing and not found in scriptures.

The bottom line is that the belief that Jesus' atonement was for all men including the unsaved dead who live and died before the cross is not supported and taught in scriptures. It is a man made doctrine. And of course I don't believe this falsehood. If you want to believe that, that's up to you.

Tong
R0496
 

JunChosen

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Nope. I was just stating that what I said was based on scriptural truth that Jesus was sent to save His people, those whom the Father had given Him, not each and every man that was, is, and will be, and not as you say was based on nothing and not found in scriptures.

Most people have no understanding of the true Gospel and therefore, what is claimed should always be backed up by Scripture.

For instance, you said: "Jesus was sent to save His people from their sins" Correct! Scripture reference: Matthew 1:21: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins."

You also said: "which the Father had given him." Scripture reference : John 6:37 which reads: "All that the Father giveth me will come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

This is not only the Gospel truth it is also a good practice.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God/

To God Be The Glory
 

Tong2020

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Most people have no understanding of the true Gospel and therefore, what is claimed should always be backed up by Scripture.

For instance, you said: "Jesus was sent to save His people from their sins" Correct! Scripture reference: Matthew 1:21: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins."

You also said: "which the Father had given him." Scripture reference : John 6:37 which reads: "All that the Father giveth me will come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

This is not only the Gospel truth it is also a good practice.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God/

To God Be The Glory
Greetings JunChosen!

What is your point?

Tong
R0499
 

Renniks

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No, we should seek God with all our heart!

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
This is counter to the idea of some being chosen. If one is chosen, that is God seeking him, not him seeking God. If everything we do is already predestined, there's no sense in which we are really doing any of it. It's called determinism.
 

Behold

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God predestined that Salvation would be offered to everyone.
The Cross is the literal fulfillment of this predestined offer of God's Grace.
 

Tong2020

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This is counter to the idea of some being chosen. If one is chosen, that is God seeking him, not him seeking God. If everything we do is already predestined, there's no sense in which we are really doing any of it. It's called determinism.
Must not misuse scriptures. Who are the "you" in Jeremiah 29:13? For sure it's not referring to all mankind nor to just anyone.

Tong
R0500
 

Renniks

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Must not misuse scriptures. Who are the "you" in Jeremiah 29:13? For sure it's not referring to all mankind nor to just anyone.

Tong
R0500
In Jeremiah 29 it's referring to Israel. We are Israel, if we are in Christ. But I never quoted that verse?
“Ask and it will be given to you;E seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
This is what Jesus tells us on the subject.
 

JunChosen

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Greetings JunChosen!

What is your point?

Thank you and greetings to you as well.

You told @Renniks, "Nope. I was just stating that what I said was based on scriptural truth."

My point was, how can you convince anyone that what you stated was based on scriptural truth, without scriptural references?

I'm sorry if I did not make myself clear.

To God Be The Glory
 

JunChosen

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kcnalp said:
No, we should seek God with all our heart!

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

The above scripture must be read in light of Jeremiah 17:9 "the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?" By this assessment, only the elect will seek God.

This is counter to the idea of some being chosen. If one is chosen, that is God seeking him, not him seeking God.

Exactly! God is the one who seeks because scripture insists that there's none that seeketh after God, no, not one. Romans 3:10-11.

If everything we do is already predestined, there's no sense in which we are really doing any of it. It's called determinism.

Not exactly. It is called grace!

To God Be The Glory


 
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kcnalp

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2 Thessalonians 2:13 ... God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
 

JunChosen

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God predestined that Salvation would be offered to everyone.

The Cross is the literal fulfillment of this predestined offer of God's Grace.

Grace is offered to all people.

I suppose the two of you have not read Matthew 1:21!!! Where it reads: "you shall call his name Jesus for he will save his people from their" sins."

Are both of you His people? If you accept His offer who will be the king maker, you or Jesus? Read Ezekiel 36:24,ff to find out.

To God Be The Glory
 
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Renniks

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I suppose the two of you have not read Matthew 1:21!!! Where it reads: "you shall call his name Jesus for he will save his people from their" sins."

Are both of you His people?

To God Be The Glory
I've read the whole book. Why do you believe that verse means grace isn't universal? It's referring to who? Can you tell me who his people are?
 

JunChosen

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I've read the whole book. Why do you believe that verse means grace isn't universal? It's referring to who? Can you tell me who his people are?

Imagine, if grace is universal, there will no one be put to hell for Christ will have been obligated to redeemed all the sins of each person n the world. And, this can't be according to Matthew 1:21.

But hell will heavily be populated!

To God Be The Glory